What is New Testament Holiness?

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Hepzibah

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On whether there were any saints in the OT, let us look for an example in Job the most wonderful writing to help those who are being trained in holiness along with the Prophets who heard God directly for their revelation..

Job's reaction to sudden and profound loss, was to accept it with grace as if from the hand of God, with thanksgiving and praise. We are presented with a man who walks in the Spirit, a faithful servant of Almighty God. Later he would lament:

O that I were as in the months of old

as in the days when God watched over me

when his lamp shone over my head and by his light

I walked through darkness when I was in my prime.
29.2-4.

For Job, each successive blow is accepted magnanimously: The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 1.21. On recounting his past experiences 29.23, Job does not speak of his worldly loss, but expresses his grief about his loss of light, or in other words, the presence of God.

The story moves on to where his 'friends' join him in the ash-pit outside of the city walls. The thing which he had dreaded the most, had occurred, leaving him speechless: The heavens were silent; God had departed, and creation has seemingly been reversed. This situation, known by others who walk closely with God, has been called 'The Dark Night of the Soul' by St John of the Cross.1 The deserted lover in this case is not at fault and sought him but found him not, Song of Solomon 3.1. Likewise from J.S. Bach:

If each day is filled with sorrow

And lamentation does not vanish

Ah, then this pain must

Pave the way to death

My dearest God lets me

Still call in vain. 2

Job pleads, Make me know my transgressions and my sin, 13.23. All of the understanding of his past dealings with God were being demolished because there is silence regarding his request and readiness to repent, had he inadvertently sinned. His claim to sinlessness was due to light given, but now, circumstances lead him to believe that his convictions are in doubt, which brought extreme confusion and despair.

Job is taunted throughout the speeches, by two thoughts, the first of which has been the temptation of the enemy since the beginning: Did God say? Genesis 3.1. God had declared Job sinless, and the accuser desired that Job would doubt it, losing his testimony. The voices taunted him with the thought that if indeed he was sinless, then God would have no reason to withdraw. If Job admitted he was not, then God would restore him as he desired. The issue was over Job's perfection, and what is special about Job, is that he brings illumination to the severest of trial in the spiritual realm with which Jesus himself also had to contend, that is the seeming desertion of God in the hour of need of his most devout servants.

Job finally understands the purpose of the silence for himself and also for those who are willing to do all things without murmuring and arguing so that you may be blameless and innocent children of God without blemish, Phil. 2.14-15.

God reveals Himself, Job is convicted and repents. Without the light of God, which was his only claim to holiness, he fell into sudden darkness, because he needed to learn not to lean on his own understanding in his holy state, depending instead on the light of God to guide him, but rather than become angry, he saw that even enjoyment of the presence of God must be given up willingly to worship the giver of the gift and not the gift itself. He is validated in that he had spoken correctly about God, that the trial was not because he sinned, and the accuser(s) were wrong. Finally, wanting nothing for himself, happy to allow God to grace with his presence at his choosing, and to embrace darkness. This stage of Job's maturity/union is complete.

1St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel. (London: Burns and Oats 1983)
2J.S. Bach, The Complete Cantatas. (trans. R Stokes; Toronto: The Scarecrow Press, 2004) BWV 13.
 
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Episkopos

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There are two states: Revelation 22:11. Righteousness and Holiness. They are not mature at the same time.

Righteousness is Sinlessness (from sins unto death)

Don't you go trying to take away the righteousness from the righteous too. A lot of that going on around here.. The righteous do sin.

Is. 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.


Holiness is Perfection (from sins not unto death)

Holiness is indeed perfection....no sin in holiness. There is no sinful holiness..much to the chagrin of some here.
Sinlessness is when Jesus writes all the law on our hearts and conscience and gives us the Holy Spirit to prevent us from breaking them
Perfection is the maturity of ALL of the fruit of the Spirit. It takes the longest. It is why Paul kept saying he wasn't perfect, but I think he finally made it in his last letter to Timothy. Read 2 Timothy 4:6-8.
This is mixing up the gift of purity (holiness) with maturity...what happens to us if we remain faithful to God.
 

Episkopos

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I find that I am not in agreement with the thought that Paul wrote those words that he was not perfect, whilst he was not in the Spirit.

Paul admits he wasn't always perfect when he wrote;...


Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already attained, or am already (presently) perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Paul does not deny that others are in that state when he wasn't.


15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Paul of all the saints, would know that being in the Spirit was vital to one who had so much authority in the church, and would have put off his writings till the time he was in the Spirit.

I don't think we go in and out of our ministry when we go in and out of the Spirit. There is a maturity and understanding (with humility) that is fostered by having been with the Lord. Experience is very important. One doesn't have to be perfected to help people that are far behind in understanding and experience. One simply has to be honest with where one is at.
Besides, he would have reached the stage of being established therein, and no more would be going out and coming in:

"To him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Rev 3:10".

That final...no more going out .....is meant generally for what happens when we have finished the race...but that could be either while we are alive or when the race is no longer there because this age has come to an end.

It could be both...a final maturing ....or after this world training ground comes to an end. Then everyone receives the reward at the level he/she was established in.
The going out and coming in is part of the training of the saints as Epi has said.

I did say that :)
But there comes a point when the training is complete and one has the mind of Christ.

Yes.
When one is 'out of the Spirit' one is not led by the Spirit although one remembers what one has already learned. But mistakes are made and memory is not perfect.

We can be led by the Spirit without being IN the Spirit. We can sow to the Spirit that way too. The example of the Israelites in the desert suffices.
Rather, I think that Paul was speaking of after his death which he knew would be as a martyr.

“If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead" where he would wear the martyr's crown and be free of the attacks of the enemy on his life.

He cries out “Let us therefore as many as be perfect, be thus minded.”—Phil. 3:15. He is appealing to the oneness of those who are also in the Spirit and perfect.
Amen
 

Episkopos

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On whether there were any saints in the OT, let us look for an example in Job the most wonderful writing to help those who are being trained in holiness along with the Prophets who heard God directly for their revelation..

Job's reaction to sudden and profound loss, was to accept it with grace as if from the hand of God, with thanksgiving and praise. We are presented with a man who walks in the Spirit, a faithful servant of Almighty God. Later he would lament:

O that I were as in the months of old

as in the days when God watched over me

when his lamp shone over my head and by his light

I walked through darkness when I was in my prime.
29.2-4.

For Job, each successive blow is accepted magnanimously: The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 1.21. On recounting his past experiences 29.23, Job does not speak of his worldly loss, but expresses his grief about his loss of light, or in other words, the presence of God.

The story moves on to where his 'friends' join him in the ash-pit outside of the city walls. The thing which he had dreaded the most, had occurred, leaving him speechless: The heavens were silent; God had departed, and creation has seemingly been reversed. This situation, known by others who walk closely with God, has been called 'The Dark Night of the Soul' by St John of the Cross.1 The deserted lover in this case is not at fault and sought him but found him not, Song of Solomon 3.1. Likewise from J.S. Bach:

If each day is filled with sorrow

And lamentation does not vanish

Ah, then this pain must

Pave the way to death

My dearest God lets me

Still call in vain. 2

Job pleads, Make me know my transgressions and my sin, 13.23. All of the understanding of his past dealings with God were being demolished because there is silence regarding his request and readiness to repent, had he inadvertently sinned. His claim to sinlessness was due to light given, but now, circumstances lead him to believe that his convictions are in doubt, which brought extreme confusion and despair.

Job is taunted throughout the speeches, by two thoughts, the first of which has been the temptation of the enemy since the beginning: Did God say? Genesis 3.1. God had declared Job sinless, and the accuser desired that Job would doubt it, losing his testimony. The voices taunted him with the thought that if indeed he was sinless, then God would have no reason to withdraw. If Job admitted he was not, then God would restore him as he desired. The issue was over Job's perfection, and what is special about Job, is that he brings illumination to the severest of trial in the spiritual realm with which Jesus himself also had to contend, that is the seeming desertion of God in the hour of need of his most devout servants.

Job finally understands the purpose of the silence for himself and also for those who are willing to do all things without murmuring and arguing so that you may be blameless and innocent children of God without blemish, Phil. 2.14-15.

God reveals Himself, Job is convicted and repents. Without the light of God, which was his only claim to holiness, he fell into sudden darkness, because he needed to learn not to lean on his own understanding in his holy state, depending instead on the light of God to guide him, but rather than become angry, he saw that even enjoyment of the presence of God must be given up willingly to worship the giver of the gift and not the gift itself. He is validated in that he had spoken correctly about God, that the trial was not because he sinned, and the accuser(s) were wrong. Finally, wanting nothing for himself, happy to allow God to grace with his presence at his choosing, and to embrace darkness. This stage of Job's maturity/union is complete.

1St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel. (London: Burns and Oats 1983)
2J.S. Bach, The Complete Cantatas. (trans. R Stokes; Toronto: The Scarecrow Press, 2004) BWV 13.
Job was a righteous man who needed more instruction in righteousness. The curious thing is that he never gets any other power than he already has...but yet encounters God...in an experience of holiness...that informs his righteous disposition.

Those who are already bearing fruit are pruned by God so that they might bear more fruit. In this case a double fruit.

[2] Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

God is indeed like a Gardener. :)

Could Job be considered a saint? Could Moses? Could Elijah?

There is a limitation in character to not having a divine nature installed to go along with the divine visitations.

So then the standard of a saint in the OT is to be subject to God's holiness as messengers from Him...without living in holiness. A residual effect of experiencing God's holiness, yes, but not a walking in the power of it WITHIN the person...just an anointing power UPON the person. So then the OT "saint" is never sanctified or made perfect in this way...made sinless...moving on to have the stature of Christ in character. We see this with John the Baptist...walking in God's anointing from birth. But Jesus says of Him that although he is the greatest man...even the least in the kingdom is greater than he.

What does that mean? This is about the greatness of the kingdom realm and the experience of abiding in Christ there being of greater significance to all the anointings over the carnal mind.


In the NT we see people being regenerated through Christ,..given access to His own divine nature...but most now refusing to go to God or wait upon His visitation.

So there's that.

An OT saint walked in an anointing upon him/her. A NT saint walks with BOTH an inner and an outer anointing.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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There are two states: Revelation 22:11. Righteousness and Holiness. They are not mature at the same time.

Righteousness is Sinlessness (from sins unto death)
Holiness is Perfection (from sins not unto death)

Sinlessness is when Jesus writes all the law on our hearts and conscience and gives us the Holy Spirit to prevent us from breaking them
Perfection is the maturity of ALL of the fruit of the Spirit. It takes the longest. It is why Paul kept saying he wasn't perfect, but I think he finally made it in his last letter to Timothy. Read 2 Timothy 4:6-8.
where did you get these defenitions?
 

amigo de christo

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its a good thing perfect spelling is not required for perfect righteousness and holiness..
There is but one thing required too attain salvation , righteousness , holiness .
BELIEVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND . JESUS CHRIST .
And let us learn well our bibles and HEED the SPIRIT and not the contrary flesh .
For the true believers in CHRIST JESUS are His workmanship created
unto good works .
But mark these next words very well . If any then comes and says there is no need to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
but calls that religious , DONT HEED such a person , no not once , not ever .
For they have denied the very gospel by which a man is saved . Thus they have denied JESUS CHRIST
and that means THEY DENIED GOD .
Even the pharisees could teach truths , and yet KNEW NOT THE TRUTH .
For had they known it they would not have REJECTED JESUS CHRIST .
From the beginning, from ever the earth was , HE WAS and if folks
try and preach aspects about holiness , righteousness , the cross , YET DENY the FACT one must FIRST BELIEVE
on HE who was crucified on THAT CROSS . WELL its all vain . And worse
they make themselves the enemy of the gospel of CHRIST and thus have made themselves the enemy o GOD .
Sure folks can teach aspects about truths . Heck even buddist , mulims , even athiests
can teach aspects about the truth , and yet THEY KNOW NOT THE TRUTH .
Watch out and beware for more than we realize are heading down a path
A path they cliam be of love , a path they cliam mankind can attain to the cross , to righteousenss and holy living
a path they even claim attains salvation . YET this path FAILS to remind folks YE MUST BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
and thus its a path , oh its a path all right , A BROAD ONE that leads only to destruction .
 
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Hepzibah

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10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 *I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.* 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Dear Epi

The prize of the high calling of Christ, is the crown of martyrdom, spoken of in those terms in the early church. They considered it the greatest blessing.

This is the imperfection that Paul still had to obtain, not holiness which in the early church they followed instructions that all who were bishops or apostles, were in union with Christ, or holy, not in training.

For God to place a man in training into such an important role that Paul held, would seem to be foolish rather than wait until he was qualified and could be an example to the flock and the leaders who followed.

He says "if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you" and according to your understanding, Paul was not walking in his revelation to be likewise minded. I do understand very much the difference a the moment, having only very recently been restored to the position of union or holiness and see how my thinking had become less than it would be in full guidance of the Spirit.

"I don't think we go in and out of our ministry when we go in and out of the Spirit."

Until we are settled we are not in our ministry fully though we may be practicing it beforehand in our training.
 

Hepzibah

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There would have been no point in the wager with Satan had Job not have walked in holiness. Satan said 'Take everything away from him and he will sin' It failed. He did not sin by crying out to God to show him where he had sinned nor would he have done that if he was still sinning.

What Job failed to do was accepting the right of God to give the blessing whenever He chose. Missing God was no sin.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Don't you go trying to take away the righteousness from the righteous too. A lot of that going on around here.. The righteous do sin.

Is. 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Eccl. 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

That was true of all mankind since Adam sinned. But that influence from Satan in our nature is why Jesus came - to take it away, and destroy the works of Satan.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This is mixing up the gift of purity (holiness) with maturity...what happens to us if we remain faithful to God.

We are already sinless. Maturity in all the fruit of the Spirit added to our sinlessness is holiness where we will never stumble.
 

Robert Pate

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That was true of all mankind since Adam sinned. But that influence from Satan in our nature is why Jesus came - to take it away, and destroy the works of Satan.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.



We are already sinless. Maturity in all the fruit of the Spirit added to our sinlessness is holiness where we will never stumble.
As long as we are in these unredeemed Adamic bodies, we will sin, Romans 8:23. The only holiness that God will accept is the holiness of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him and because of him, Philippians 3:9.
 

Episkopos

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10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 *I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.* 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Dear Epi

The prize of the high calling of Christ, is the crown of martyrdom, spoken of in those terms in the early church. They considered it the greatest blessing.

This is the imperfection that Paul still had to obtain, not holiness which in the early church they followed instructions that all who were bishops or apostles, were in union with Christ, or holy, not in training.

For God to place a man in training into such an important role that Paul held, would seem to be foolish rather than wait until he was qualified and could be an example to the flock and the leaders who followed.

He says "if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you" and according to your understanding, Paul was not walking in his revelation to be likewise minded. I do understand very much the difference a the moment, having only very recently been restored to the position of union or holiness and see how my thinking had become less than it would be in full guidance of the Spirit.

"I don't think we go in and out of our ministry when we go in and out of the Spirit."

Until we are settled we are not in our ministry fully though we may be practicing it beforehand in our training.
I think we have to see our whole time here as training. And no one can replace Christ as Head of the church...so God can work with ministers who are not fully mature..but who are able to remain humble and teachable.

An example of this is Peter....who showed favouritism towards the Jewish brethren at Antioch...which Paul sought to correct as being unjust. Was Peter not an apostle...charged by God to "feed My sheep?"

Another example is where two apostles sent directly by God (Paul and Barnabas) to minister had such a disagreement that they split up.

I think we have to take our own weaknesses into account..and acknowledge these things.

Look at David, a murderer and adulterer AND the chosen king of Israel. In spite of David's obvious mistakes, did he not have a heart after God's??? Can we not learn anything from him?

The Promised Land is never fully conquered. There are many victories....but there are always going to be lacks in the church. We are not to focus on only using what is fully incorruptible among us. We are to help one another achieve what God wills...forgiving and helping each other through the difficulties and "blind spots" we all have.

We will be corruptible as long as we are in the flesh...I didn't say sinful. We can walk in the Spirit above sin. But we are "in play" liable to fall at any given moment....based on pride, hubris, a lack of knowledge, a lack of watching and praying...etc. And we might do great for years before a fateful test catches us unawares.

So we are to support one another and help the cause of Christ.

Was Peter too picky?....was Paul too judgmental at times? But we are to love and honour them regardless as being from among us...chosen vessels for the Master's use. How we treat them is how we treat the Lord Himself.

We have to contend at present with many false teachers...many purveyors of human opinions. As such ANY kind of sound doctrine should be lauded. It strikes me as unreasonable to think we can go from a fake gospel to perfection in Christ...all in one go. We can have unrealistic expectations that we force others into. That strikes me as being unwise. I speak from the truth and I respect all who do so...regardless of where they are on the maturity scale. Only if they have truly known Christ and His perfection. I also respect even the most basic childlike demonstration of righteousness. Righteousness demands I do so.
 
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Episkopos

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That was true of all mankind since Adam sinned. But that influence from Satan in our nature is why Jesus came - to take it away, and destroy the works of Satan.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.



We are already sinless. Maturity in all the fruit of the Spirit added to our sinlessness is holiness where we will never stumble.
Going from one extreme to the other just makes us fall off the horse on the other side. Balance is key.

I am in neither camp. The camps go like this...Either we can't stop sinning all the time (because actually we are without God's power called grace)...or we don't sin because we are sinless (deceiving ourselves we are something we are not). Both to me are from a human perspective that lacks understanding of our true condition...and what we have access to in Christ.


Saints go in and out of the Spirit. That is the training of a saint. Not a carnal believer. A non-saint will claim to be always in the Spirit...since nothing has happened to him/her...only the naming and claiming has changed. Just a change of label.

It's like taking an old junker car and putting a label on it that says...Maserati...then calling that a race car. We see quite a bit of that.

The truth is that most believers walk in their own power...and some are led by the Spirit. But the translation into the higher walk is in another dimension...a dimension of love and peace and holiness where there is NO sin...no spot or wrinkle of sin. :) Very very few know of this level of walk...so that many of the unbelieving naysayers even deny the power of the cross in the process.
 
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amigo de christo

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its a good thing perfect spelling is not required for perfect righteousness and holiness..
There is but one thing required too attain salvation , righteousness , holiness .
BELIEVE YE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND . JESUS CHRIST .
And let us learn well our bibles and HEED the SPIRIT and not the contrary flesh .
For the true believers in CHRIST JESUS are His workmanship created
unto good works .
But mark these next words very well . If any then comes and says there is no need to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
but calls that religious , DONT HEED such a person , no not once , not ever .
For they have denied the very gospel by which a man is saved . Thus they have denied JESUS CHRIST
and that means THEY DENIED GOD .
Even the pharisees could teach truths , and yet KNEW NOT THE TRUTH .
For had they known it they would not have REJECTED JESUS CHRIST .
From the beginning, from ever the earth was , HE WAS and if folks
try and preach aspects about holiness , righteousness , the cross , YET DENY the FACT one must FIRST BELIEVE
on HE who was crucified on THAT CROSS . WELL its all vain . And worse
they make themselves the enemy of the gospel of CHRIST and thus have made themselves the enemy o GOD .
Sure folks can teach aspects about truths . Heck even buddist , mulims , even athiests
can teach aspects about the truth , and yet THEY KNOW NOT THE TRUTH .
Watch out and beware for more than we realize are heading down a path
A path they cliam be of love , a path they cliam mankind can attain to the cross , to righteousenss and holy living
a path they even claim attains salvation . YET this path FAILS to remind folks YE MUST BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
and thus its a path , oh its a path all right , A BROAD ONE that leads only to destruction .
 
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amigo de christo

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Going from one extreme to the other just makes us fall off the horse on the other side. Balance is key.

I am in neither camp. The camps go like this...Either we can't stop sinning all the time (because actually we are without God's power called grace)...or we don't sin because we are sinless (deceiving ourselves we are something we are not). Both to me are from a human perspective that lacks understanding of our true condition...and what we have access to in Christ.


Saints go in and out of the Spirit. That is the training of a saint. Not a carnal believer. A non-saint will claim to be always in the Spirit...since nothing has happened to him/her...only the naming and claiming has changed. Just a change of label.

It's like taking an old junker car and putting a label that says...Maserati...then calling that a race car. We see quite a bit of that.

The truth is that most believers walk in their own power...and some are led by the Spirit. But the translation into the higher walk is in another dimension...a dimension of love and peace and holiness where there is NO sin...no spot or wrinkle of sin. :) Very very few know of this level of walk...so that many of the unbelieving naysayers even deny the power of the cross in the process.
many who do claim to believe on Christ do deny the power of the cross cause they follow men and another jesus
But then we got a lot of folks like you epi who try and teach the power of the cross
and YET DENY THE POWER OF GOD . You deny the fact that one must BELIEVE ON HE WHO WAS ON THAT CROSS .
Thus you have zero idea about the power of the cross and go about to preach nutting
but a man made religoin that giveth the idea one can can pick up their cross without havingto BELIEVE ON HE WHO was ON SAID CROSS .
SORRY EPI but its just another way of man attainingto that which he cannot attain unto without faith in Christ
 
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