What is New Testament Holiness?

[Episkopos]

many who do claim to believe on Christ do deny the power of the cross cause they follow men and another jesus
But then we got a lot of folks like you epi who try and teach the power of the cross
and YET DENY THE POWER OF GOD . You deny the fact that one must BELIEVE ON HE WHO WAS ON THAT CROSS .
Thus you have zero idea about the power of the cross and go about to preach nutting
but a man made religoin that giveth the idea one can can pick up their cross without havingto BELIEVE ON HE WHO was ON SAID CROSS .
SORRY EPI but its just another way of man attainingto that which he cannot attain unto without faith in Christ

What have you attained to??? A religious bent? A talent for bloviating? You have attained nothing but for a religious presumption based on an ideological belief without power.

 

[Hepzibah]

I think we have to see our whole time here as training. And no one can replace Christ as Head of the church...so God can work with ministers who are not fully mature..but who are able to remain humble and teachable.

An example of this is Peter....who showed favouritism towards the Jewish brethren at Antioch...which Paul sought to correct as being unjust. Was Peter not an apostle...charged by God to "feed My sheep?"

Another example is where two apostles sent directly by God (Paul and Barnabas) to minister had such a disagreement that they split up.

I think we have to take our own weaknesses into account..and acknowledge these things.

Look at David, a murderer and adulterer AND the chosen king of Israel. In spite of David's obvious mistakes, did he not have a heart after God's??? Can we not learn anything from him?

The Promised Land is never fully conquered. There are many victories....but there are always going to be lacks in the church. We are not to focus on only using what is fully incorruptible among us. We are to help one another achieve what God wills...forgiving and helping each other through the difficulties and "blind spots" we all have.

We will be corruptible as long as we are in the flesh...I didn't say sinful. We can walk in the Spirit above sin. But we are "in play" liable to fall at any given moment....based on pride, hubris, a lack of knowledge, a lack of watching and praying...etc. And we might do great for years before a fateful test catches us unawares.

So we are to support one another and help the cause of Christ.

Was Peter too picky?....was Paul too judgmental at times? But we are to love and honour them regardless as being from among us...chosen vessels for the Master's use. How we treat them is how we treat the Lord Himself.

We have to contend at present with many false teachers...many purveyors of human opinions. As such ANY kind of sound doctrine should be lauded. It strikes me as unreasonable to think we can go from a fake gospel to perfection in Christ...all in one go. We can have unrealistic expectations that we force others into. That strikes me as being unwise. I speak from the truth and I respect all who do so...regardless of where they are on the maturity scale. Only if they have truly known Christ and His perfection. I also respect even the most basic childlike demonstration of righteousness. Righteousness demands I do so.

36 Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they are doing.” 37 Now Barnabas was determined to take with them John called Mark. 38 But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. 39 Then the contention became so sharp that they parted from one another. And so Barnabas took Mark and sailed to Cyprus;

I think we can safely say that it was Paul who was correct in not taking Mark and Barnabus wrong in not accepting the leadership of Paul. So Barnabus was not just making a mistake. But there is some confusion here - we are talking about perfection and not maturity which I agree is not the same thing. But maturity is expected as well as perfection in those who are leading others as the early church was at pains to show. So we are only in training in that sense before we become leaders, and even more so when in a position of setting up churches.

Peter made an error and Paul put him right and we can assume that he accepted Paul's authority. He was perhaps at that point not walking in the Spirit but Paul put him right. We can still fall into sin whilst in the state of holiness, but it is not a one minute this and one minute that. We are either in holiness or not and it lasts for a varied amount of time - days months or years/rest of ones life.

You mention David but he was confronted with his sin 'thou art that man' and it is left for us to assume that he continued then on in holiness as he was called a man after God's heart and God does not name something which is something else. It is because the whole church in the west has moved away from this that it is in such a state. (The church in the east is also in a terrible state) End times.

Even deacons were to be blameless. If a man in the early church fell back to walking in the flesh he would be relieved of his position and a man who is genuinely filled with integrity will step down if he no longer fills the conditions. We do know whether we are walking in the flesh or in the Spirit once we have been there and look to the perfect for leadership. That's where I look - to those in the early church in perfection for Bible interpretation otherwise we are in sliding sand..

 

[Episkopos]

36 Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they are doing.” 37 Now Barnabas was determined to take with them John called Mark. 38 But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. 39 Then the contention became so sharp that they parted from one another. And so Barnabas took Mark and sailed to Cyprus;

I think we can safely say that it was Paul who was correct in not taking Mark and Barnabus wrong in not accepting the leadership of Paul. So Barnabus was not just making a mistake. But there is some confusion here - we are talking about perfection and not maturity which I agree is not the same thing. But maturity is expected as well as perfection in those who are leading others as the early church was at pains to show. So we are only in training in that sense before we become leaders, and even more so when in a position of setting up churches.

Peter made an error and Paul put him right and we can assume that he accepted Paul's authority. He was perhaps at that point not walking in the Spirit but Paul put him right. We can still fall into sin whilst in the state of holiness, but it is not a one minute this and one minute that. We are either in holiness or not and it lasts for a varied amount of time - days months or years/rest of ones life.

You mention David but he was confronted with his sin 'thou art that man' and it is left for us to assume that he continued then on in holiness as he was called a man after God's heart and God does not name something which is something else. It is because the whole church in the west has moved away from this that it is in such a state. (The church in the east is also in a terrible state) End times.

Even deacons were to be blameless. If a man in the early church fell back to walking in the flesh he would be relieved of his position and a man who is genuinely filled with integrity will step down if he no longer fills the conditions. We do know whether we are walking in the flesh or in the Spirit once we have been there and look to the perfect for leadership. That's where I look - to those in the early church in perfection for Bible interpretation otherwise we are in sliding sand..

If we are not in the Spirit as ministers....then we are to be at least LED by the Spirit. And we are to remain humble and teachable.

What is interesting is that the qualification for being an overseer is not that one be filled with the Spirit or fully mature...but have a righteous disposition. Having a good reputation inside and outside the church.

The prophet is the one who is expected to speak the words from God. And again, one can be led by the Spirit without the higher walk.

The higher walk is so rare that it cannot be a necessity in ministry...simply an acknowledgment and experience of it. Otherwise there is no church at all in the West...and little of it elsewhere. There are very few who walk in the Spirit...and these might be little old ladies or men who people never even notice.

God knows how to work outside the limelight.

Does a coach have to be able to run faster than a prize athlete? Or does he just know how the athlete can improve his race?

 

[ChristisGod]

The world might well be indifferent to righteousness. But the church in our time is indifferent to holiness. The wrath of God is meant for those who are indifferent to Jesus Christ....both in the world and the church. Each bears a responsibility according to the level of their calling.

Misnomer alert.

Christ saves us ( born again believers) from the wrath to come. The body of Christ ( His church ) does not suffer Gods wrath.

Bible Truth 101 that you missed.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:9
Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!


hope this helps !!!

 

[Episkopos]

Misnomer alert.

Christ saves us ( born again believers) from the wrath to come. The body of Christ ( His church ) does not suffer Gods wrath.

Bible Truth 101 that you missed.

hope this helps !!!

There is a portion of God's wrath on the sons of disobedience among God's people. You have a lot of opinions but you are short on truth. Notice this...

Hebrews 3:11​

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
“So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)”

You think you are special? You have no idea of God's coming judgment.

 

[marks]

As long as we are in these unredeemed Adamic bodies, we will sin, Romans 8:23. The only holiness that God will accept is the holiness of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him and because of him, Philippians 3:9.

In our lives now, I think holiness is pictured in this place,

Ephesians 4:24-25 KJV
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Speaking truth to each other is righteousness, doing the right thing. Living as members one of another is holiness, as we are in the life that God ordained, serving His purposes and not our own. One is what we are doing, the other is what we are.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 3:11
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
“So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)”

Plucking verses from their context is never a valid means by which to know truth. You have to keep reading, but I'm certain you know that.

Hebrews 3:17-19 KJV
17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So when you ignore these things, what are we to make of it? That you do this on purpose?

To then who believe,

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 KJV
9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

And let's not neglect more of this same teaching on rest from the next chapter in Hebrews,

Hebrews 4:3-11 KJV
3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I urge you to enter into His rest.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

It is not just in the early years that a leader of the church, minister or bishop, was expected to be a man who did not sin, and I am looking up teaching on it, even though you may not accept them as authoritive, there have been times when the Spirit of God was there in power, at times such as the early Quakers and the revivals in Scotland in the 1900's when it was deemed vital and no-one was accepted unless they were holy even in evangelistic roles.

It is no good saying that the state of the church today should be thought of as normal.

 

[marks]

It is not just in the early years that a leader of the church, minister or bishop, was expected to be a man who did not sin, and I am looking up teaching on it, even though you may not accept them as authoritive, there have been times when the Spirit of God was there in power, at times such as the early Quakers and the revivals in Scotland in the 1900's when it was deemed vital and no-one was accepted unless they were holy even in evangelistic roles.

It is no good saying that the state of the church today should be thought of as normal.

I agree that we need to hold to the Biblical standards for church leaders. To me that's a problem that exists on internet forums. You are not able to know if someone meets the Biblical criteria. Just anyone can present themself as a teacher, or a leader.

Whether they be persons who do not commit any sins of any kind, I don't believe that's something we can know unless we've received that from the Holy Spirit. Anyone I've ever met who has presented themself as sinless has equally demonstrated the falseness of that claim.

Personally I tend to take all the claims people make for themselves with an huge grain of salt. If someone is more spiritual than others, it will most certainly show in how they are, towards others, and just in general. So when you get someone claiming great things, but then they lie about others, for instance, I know their claims are a lot of hot air.

But I think the Biblical standards are good. If his family has been raised well, he's got a good marriage, his neighbors, the community speak well of him, no record, no bad habits, doesn't hit others (I include lashing out even if not with your fist), not a big drinker.

To me this makes for a self-improving dynamic. The more spiritual we are, the more we will be in spiritually functioning relationships. The more we are in spiritually functioning relationships, the more we will grow spiritually, and with accountability that keeps us authentic.

Maybe that's the word for the day for me. I see so many who are inauthentic, saying this but doing that. Talking about spirituality out of their fleshiness.

Forums promote that I think, since you can act like whatever you want, and no one else really knows you. And even considering that truth, it continually amazes me the lowbrow posting that goes on, like a schoolyard.

But I digress . . . to your post . . .

I've known certain men in my life who have demonstrated to me that they have that maturity of faith and depth of love that I desire to emulate, and, I don't even want to speculate whether they did/do commit sins, I'm certain none would claim sinlessness. Personally I happen to think it's specious to say such things. It's like we think we're fit judges of ourselves and we're not.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

deceiving ourselves we are something we are not

Or actually believing Jesus! You'll have more people in your pews though.

 

[Episkopos]

Or actually believing Jesus! You'll have more people in your pews though.

Actually not at all. Delusions attract more people seeking to escape their true condition. It's like a religious drug culture of sorts.

 

[Behold]

Reader,

New Testament Holiness, is to have become "made righteous".

God says, "be holy as I AM Holy".. so we see that this can't be done by US, as God's Holiness is God's.

So, for us to walk in that Light, we have to be "translated from Darkness TO Light"..

And for that to happen, we have to be Born again..

So, True Holiness, is God's Righteousness...
And this is given to the believer, as "the Gift of Righteousness".

Now here is a mystery..

Once you are born again, you become "the righteousness of God, IN Christ".
This means you start as "made righteous", the very instant you were born again.
You can't ever become more righteous, then you were made to be by God, the instant you BELIEVED in Christ and God gave you the new Birth...= Born again.

Reader,

You FIRST came to Jesus that day, that morning, that Sunday Service with a Life time of sin on you.. and When you took Christ by Faith, BELIEVING.....God took that precious precious Blood of JESUS and washed your SIN so that it became white as Snow...

"what can wash away my sin............Nothing but the BLOOD OF JESUS""

And God did this for you, the INSTANT you gave God your faith in Christ.
Do you remember when you did that ???
Do you remember the very instant that God saved you?

What does that mean?
'It means that "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us".... and you have been made RIGHTEOUS, as if you never sinned.

And that is how you START your Christian WALK.......Day 1.

And now you go out, in that "Imputed Righteousness"" , and learn how to exist in this revelation knowledge regarding who you have become "in Christ".

That is the "renewing of your mind"...

And every day, you have to put on that "" Helmet of Salvation""..... that MIND OF UNDERSTANDING and Revelation.... so that every single day, you only see yourself as God sees you...

Like this.....>"i have become the Righteousness of God, in Christ"

"i am become the Righteousness of God, in Christ"
"i am the Righteousness of God, in Christ"

See that MIND?
That is God's perspective of you if you are born again, and once you keep that mind all the time, . you are walking in the Spirit, and not according to the mind of the Flesh.
And when you understand to do this, always, then you have "worked out your salvation".

See...... "to Put on Christ" is to put on the "Helmet of Salvation",.. Its to put on the MIND that is this.. = "I am become the righteousness of God in Christ".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Actually not at all. Delusions attract more people seeking to escape their true condition. It's like a religious drug culture of sorts.

The problem is most people are still normal human beings with the same sin nature they've always had. Some of them go to church thinking Jesus will be their ticket into heaven and his blood will cover the sins they have no power to stop committing. They are the ones who are delusional. But their churches are packed!

 

[Behold]

Some of them go to church thinking Jesus will be their ticket into heaven and his blood will cover the sins they have no power to stop committing.

Umm what?

Are you saying that they believe that local church membership, is their salvation?

The Catholic idea that being sprinkled and confirmed into "the Church' is salvation?

As, It is a fact that Jesus is our ticket to heaven, as He is the only WAY there... John 14:6, but you must be born again to collect that eternal ticket.
And its a fact that the blood of Jesus does deal with all your sin, as otherwise, you'd still have some.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Umm what?

Are you saying that they believe that local church membership, is their salvation?

The Catholic idea that being sprinkled and confirmed into "the Church' is salvation?

As, It is a fact that Jesus is our ticket to heaven, as He is the only WAY there... John 14:6, but you must be born again to collect that eternal ticket.
And its a fact that the blood of Jesus does deal with all your sin, as otherwise, you'd still have some.

We are talking about the delutional.

 

[quietthinker]

Round and round and round and round, repeating the same stuff again and again and again yet I have learned little of Jesus from all of the babble.
Do you really think a theology test will be given us before entrance into the heavenly realms?

I read Jesus says to many who figured they had it figured, 'I never knew you'

 

[amigo de christo]

The problem is most people are still normal human beings with the same sin nature they've always had. Some of them go to church thinking Jesus will be their ticket into heaven and his blood will cover the sins they have no power to stop committing. They are the ones who are delusional. But their churches are packed!

You will find that those same ones will also Justify sins . calling things good which ought to never have been called good .
Many folks still love their sin . OF course they will expose some sins , but even that gets less and less over time
as their focus becometh live and let live and lets all just have us some of this all inclusive love junk .
You watch . Look around . For i am speaking about the great delusion that has struck in these latter days .
Its a delusion that is now going about TO UNIFY all to be as one under a love that cometh not of GOD
under a lie that simply will not , can not , shall not save them . The road to god is getting REAL BROAD under this love delusion too .
For more info on why that last god was not captilized
ITS CAUSE IT BE THE DEVIL that ol dragon , that ol serpent .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Umm what?

Are you saying that they believe that local church membership, is their salvation?

The Catholic idea that being sprinkled and confirmed into "the Church' is salvation?

As, It is a fact that Jesus is our ticket to heaven, as He is the only WAY there... John 14:6, but you must be born again to collect that eternal ticket.
And its a fact that the blood of Jesus does deal with all your sin, as otherwise, you'd still have some.

Lukewarm Christians do. Its more a family thing. They KNOW ABOUT Jesus, but they haven't learned they must be Jesus' servant, and Jesus their Lord! They need to love Jesus and one another and keep his commandments in order to ABIDE IN CHRIST. 1 John 3:24. They probably haven't even heard that verse, let alone read it.

 

[marks]

Round and round and round and round, repeating the same stuff again and again and again yet I have learned little of Jesus from all of the babble.
Do you really think a theology test will be given us before entrance into the heavenly realms?

I read Jesus says to many who figured they had it figured, 'I never knew you'

If we know Him now, we will still know Him then.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

and keep his commandments in order to ABIDE IN CHRIST. 1 John 3:24.

Let me show you something.

If a person is not born again.....and they keep the 10 Commandments, and Jesus's Commandments.. and are water baptized, and take the sacraments, and try to endure to the end, and also, dress up like the Pope.
If they do all this.......and If they keep them....ALL.. those commandments.........why are they still not abiding in Christ, and will go to Hell, EVEN THO, they are doing what you said to do?

Its because we "abide in Christ", by being born Again INTO HIM, = Spiritually.

Look at you verse, and notice this...

Abide "IN CHRIST".....

And that is not by works, or commandment keeping.... or by self effort.