Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Remember the context of this little book, Solomon is writing of what is "under the sun", that is, the earthly life of the human. He speaks of human perspective and human perception, human understandings. I'm not saying that's all that's in this book, but that's the context.

Jesus put this to rest in saying pointing out that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, affirming that they yet lived, as God is the God of the living, not the dead.

So Solomon is speaking there of the human experience in this world. As I see it.

Much love!

@Spiritual Israelite I think we are in agreement on this point?

I too am speaking of the human experience. Is that not what we are all talking about?

 

[Freedm]

The bible is interesting.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

They had been slain, but they were not dead. Obviously they had been resurrected, because if they were still dead they wouldn't be able to cry out. Dead men tell no tales, remember?

 

[ewq1938]

They had been slain, but they were not dead. Obviously they had been resurrected, because if they were still dead they wouldn't be able to cry out. Dead men tell no tales, remember?

That's only regarding the bodies of the dead. The souls of the dead are alive and can speak as seen in the 5th seal. The resurrection hadn't happened yet because it happens at the second coming.

 

[Brakelite]

That's only regarding the bodies of the dead. The souls of the dead are alive and can speak as seen in the 5th seal. The resurrection hadn't happened yet because it happens at the second coming.

Sorry, but that is impossible. According to Genesis the soul only came into existence when the dirt was given life by the breath. When either the dirt or the breath was separated, the soul ceased to exist.

 

[Brakelite]

The bible is interesting.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

It is the figurative or metaphorical exercise such as when the blood of Abel cried out for justice. The souls under the altar is metaphorical. Only blood was ever under the altar.

 

[The Light]

The point is, Hillary didn't "win" because that wasn't the plan of the cult. They wanted Trump and that's who we got. Your "vote" didn't decide that. They'll put in whoever they need to take the next steps toward their ultimate goal.

Someone filling you full of malarky. They never thought Trump would win.

Trump is Cyrus.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, we are the temple.

But actually, they have been holding rituals/sacrifices for a long time under the Temple Mount and they are close to being able to rebuild the aboveground 3rd temple.

I like fireworks.

 

[ewq1938]

It is the figurative or metaphorical exercise such as when the blood of Abel cried out for justice. The souls under the altar is metaphorical. Only blood was ever under the altar.

Or it is literal, that the souls of the dead can speak because they are alive. Souls of the dead speaking is not comparable to blood speaking since blood cannot speak literally. Not only did the dead speak, but God answered and spoke back!

 

[ewq1938]

When either the dirt or the breath was separated, the soul ceased to exist.

That isn't scriptural. You are confusing soul as in whole person or body with the inner soul (which you clearly don't believe in)

There is a soul that is not the body:

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

That isn't scriptural. You are confusing soul as in whole person or body with the inner soul (which you clearly don't believe in)

There is a soul that is not the body:

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you implying that the meaning of soul changes from Genesis as scripture goes forward? You are right. Based on Genesis I take the soul as being the whole person...a living being, the combination of dust and spirit(breath)...
KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul
.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you implying that the meaning of soul changes from Genesis as scripture goes forward?
.

No. In scripture there are two uses of "soul". One is the person or their body, and one is the inner soul. I already gave scripture for that but you did not comment on what that scripture says. Care to now?

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Freedm]

You're straight up not using any spiritual discernment and not looking at context. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). Your doctrine contradicts many verses in scripture.


That is a ridiculous response. You need to understand what it's saying. To say it just means what it says shows that you don't use any discernment at all when interpreting scripture and you don't look at context. You are acting as if interpreting scripture is no different than reading a magazine or the newspaper. Your hyper-literal approach results in your interpreting a verse in such a way that contradicts many other verses. Do you care about that? Apparently not.

Actually, to claim that "the dead know nothing", does not mean that the dead know nothing, is a ridiculous response. And pretending that those who believe what it literally says need "discernment" is kind of a joke, isn't it? This is not the kind of thing that you can claim is symbolic. It literally says the dead know nothing an praise not the lord. Their plans perish and they lie prostrate. Those are many verses that say that, so anybody who ignores those verses and pretends that they don't really mean what they say, has no moral high ground to lecture those of us who actually believe they are true.

 

[Freedm]

Yes. Jesus pointed out that the redeemed waited in Abraham's bosom. The unredeemed wait still in the torments of sheol. You don't bury the soul in the grave. God places the soul in sheol, just like He placed the soul in Abraham's bosom.

Yes, the soul goes to a different place as you state. Why do you take issue with the fact sheol was created for Satan and his angels, but now also is the place of torment for souls who follow after Satan?

Now the souls of the redeemed all have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. The Lamb is in the midst of them, and they serve God day and night in the heavenly temple. Hebrews 11:12-16

"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

It was called Abraham's bosom, because they were the offspring of Abraham. Although others not from Abraham were still redeemed and had faith in God. When they left Abraham's bosom and ascended to Paradise that was the country and city they were waiting for. At the Second Coming they will be raptured, caught up from Paradise the same as those alive on the earth, and we will all meet in the air between the two locations.

You are saying that dozens of verses of scripture are not accurate, because one parable seems to tell a different story? You do realize that a parable is not actually literal, right?

Remember, you must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture. Make the clear scripture your foundation, and then make the less clear scripture fit on top of that foundation. You're doing it the other way around. You're making the less clear scripture, the parable, the foundation of your doctrine, and that then forces you to explain away the really clear scriptures about death because they don't fit your understanding of the parable. That's backwards.

 

[Freedm]

You're the one who needs to think about this. When a person dies it's just their body that dies, not their soul and spirit.

What you and I believe is very similar, at least up to a point. We both believe that after death, we live on as spirits. However, this transition from physical body to spirit, that's where we differ.

You describe it as "the spirit leaves the body". I describe it as "the physical body is replaced with a spiritual body".

The problem with "the spirit leaves the body": It requires you to answer a complicated question, which I don't think you can answer. And the question is: What are you? Are you a body? If yes, then you would have to agree with "the physical body is replaced with a spiritual body" otherwise you would have to claim that you do not live on after death, and I don't think you are claiming that. If you say you are spirit, living inside of a body, then when the body dies, you don't die, because you are not the thing that died. Only your vessel died, because you are the spirit, not the body. If you say you are the combination of spirit and body, then you have a real problem because it would not allow the spirit and body to separate from each other, as both parts would have their own consciousness and that would require you to be two people. So that doesn't work. Any way you slice it, your consciousness determines what you are, because where your consciousness is, there you are.

The reason why the body replacement theory makes sense: It allows us to understand what has changed since Jesus' resurrection. Something must have changed, otherwise what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection? And when we look at OT scriptures, we can clearly see what has changed, and that is that in the OT the saints did not go to heaven upon death. Nowhere does it say that any saint went to heaven when they died, or that they went on to live as spirits when they died. Instead, we see countless examples of the dead resting in the dust, with their fathers. These examples can not be denied. And when we accept the statement that "the dead know nothing", we can confirm that the dead, in those days, lost consciousness. Their bodies were not replaced with spiritual bodies. The physical body was all they had, and so when they died, they actually died, just like God said "to dust you will return". Today, it's different. Today, when you die, you get a new body instantly so you never have to experience the state of death, because Jesus gave us eternal life, but the old testament saints did actually experience the state of death because the new spiritual body was not yet available to them.

My doctrine fits perfectly with scripture. Yours does not. You have to pretend that all those OT verses don't really mean what they say. I don't have that problem. I can accept what they say, and make sense of it all.

 

[Freedm]

That's talking about people's bodies, not their souls and spirits. Until you come to understand that there is more to people than just their bodies, you are not going to get it.

"There is more to people than just their bodies". What are you?

 

[Freedm]

I don't know why it is that you can't differentiate between the body, soul and spirit, but you should be able to do that.

Do you even know what a soul is? Cause you appear to be talking about "body, soul and spirit" as though they are three parts of a person, but that doesn't make sense if you use the biblical definition of soul. So, why don't you explain what a soul is and then we can determine if we agree on anything here.

 

[Brakelite]

Or it is literal, that the souls of the dead can speak because they are alive. Souls of the dead speaking is not comparable to blood speaking since blood cannot speak literally. Not only did the dead speak, but God answered and spoke back!

We all know that the soul can speak...but we are talking about dead people here under an altar. We must not take just one verse out of a symbolic apocalyptic book and base an entire genre of doctrine upon it. Let's look at the context and the traditional historicist hermeneutic of the seals, which deal with the history of the church and it's slow but steady slide into apostasy, while God preserves a remnant


6:1-2 The first four seals are widely known as the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.” In Revelation the horse is an animal associated with war. See Revelation 19:11, 19. The four horsemen represent the churches as they go forth to battle their enemies. The colors of the horses (white, red, black, and pale) indicate a change from purity to apostasy.

The 1st Seal: A White horse: The Pure Church

White represents purity and righteousness. Revelation 7:14; 19:8; Isaiah 1:18. The pure white church went out “conquering and to conquer.” During this time the Gospel spread like wild fire. Paul said that the Gospel “was preached to every creature which is under heaven” (Colossians 1:23), and his opponents said that they had, “turned the world upside down.” Acts 17:6. The white horse is the apostolic church going forth victoriously under the banner of Prince Jesus. The 1st seal represents the same period as the 1st church - 0-100 AD.

6:3-4 The 2nd Seal: A Red Horse: The Persecuting Church. Red is the color of sin (Isaiah 1:18), the dragon (Revelation 12:3) and bloodshed or sacrifice (2 Kings 3:22-23). When the faith and devotion of the Church became corrupted it lost the power of God to carry the Gospel forward in victory. It then began using the power of the state, uniting with the dragon (Pagan Rome controlled by Satan) to persecute dissenters. The phrase “kill one another” talks about the persecution during this era. The great sword that the horseman carries represents this war and bloodshed. (Isaiah 3:25, 1 Chronicles 22:8, Acts 12:1,2) The 2nd seal represents the period 100-323 AD just as the 2nd church did ending with the conversion of Constantine. It also depicts the compromise that began in this period when errors arose and worldliness came into the church. During this period church and state began to work together.



6:5-6 The 3rd Seal: A Black Horse: The Corrupt Church. Black is the color of darkness, apostasy and error (Acts 26:18, John 12:35), the very opposite of white. The “balances” used for measuring “wheat” and “barley” are a symbol of the buying and selling of the Gospel, salvation and forgiveness. The Church, during this time, entered a period of great moral and doctrinal error, substituting pagan beliefs and practices for the truths of God’s Word, and merchandising the Gospel. Thus they caused a scarcity of the bread of life and made commerce of it. The Bible was a banned book during this period, and preaching from the Word of God was hardly heard. There was indeed a famine for the Word of God. (Amos 8:11,12) God decreed, “Hurt not the oil and the wine,” which symbolize the Holy Spirit (Zechariah 4:3, 6) and the blood of Jesus (Matthew 26:26-29). Even though the Church was in great darkness, God preserved a people with the true Gospel of salvation.

The 3rd seal represents the same period as the 3rd church - 323-538 AD and was filled with superstition and darkest errors.

The balances in the hand of the black horse represent union of church and state. William Miller states:

The balances denoted that religion and civil power would be united in the person who would administer the executive power in the government, and that he would claim the judicial authority both in church and state. This was true amongst the Roman emperors from the days of Constantine until the reign of Justinian, when he gave the same judicial power to the bishop of Rome. i/

6:7-8 The 4th Seal: A Pale Horse: The Dead Church. This pale horse is the color of nausea and death. The Church that should have been pointing the way to eternal life was instead spreading death. “And Hell [the grave] followed with him.” The spiritual “Death” that spread across Christendom was accompanied by a moral and intellectual paralysis. The Holy Scriptures were forbidden to the people; nobles, commoners and clergy alike were largely ignorant of the great truths they contain. For centuries the Christian world made no progress in science, arts or civilization. Millions lived miserable lives of ignorance and squalor.

Ezekiel 14:21 lists war, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts as judgments on apostasy from God. Whenever the Church takes up the sword to coerce the conscience, a famine of God’s Word results. Pure Bible truth is replaced with the pestilence of heresy, opening the way for persecutors (wild beasts) to punish and chastise the Church, and multitudes perish. This was the time referred to in Revelation 12 where the woman (God's Church was nourished in the wilderness (in hiding) and covers the period when the Papacy bore its unrebuked, unrestrained and persecuting rule. The fourth part of the earth refers to the territory over which this power had jurisdiction. The verse says this period had power to kill with "sword", "hunger", "death", and the "beasts of the earth". This is exactly how the Papacy killed God's people.

The period of this church stretches from 538 AD to the time of the Reformers, approximately 1450 AD.

6:9-11 The 5th Seal: The Martyred Church. “Under the altar the souls…slain for the word of God.” Apocalyptic language teaches lessons and truths in pictures or symbols. God does not keep literal souls under a literal altar in heaven. The time covered by this seal follows the period of papal persecution of the fourth seal, and therefore it would begin when the Reformation began to undermine the papal power and restrain the persecuting power of the Roman Catholic Church. The Reformation officially began in 1517 with Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the Wittenberg Church door, however, prior to Martin Luther, Wycliffe, Huss, Jerome and others began writing to reform the Catholic Church and many of the points Luther raised had already been raised by them. The starting point, therefore, of this seal is approximate.
During the middle ages, the Papal system had millions of people put to death because they would not renounce Bible truth. Here is pictured, in symbolic language, the many martyrs of the preceding seal, whose blood, like the blood of Abel (Genesis 4:8-10), cries out to God for justice and a vindication of the truths for which they died. This crying out for justice is an example of personification used in the Bible. Personification is used in other areas of the Bible: Habakkuk 2:11, James 5:4
Although some might wish to use this verse as proof that spirits are in heaven in a conscious state, the Bible teaches that the dead in Christ rise and put on immortality when He returns. Until such time, they are asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Heaven would not be a very pleasant place if there were souls shut up under an altar crying.
The altar mentioned is symbol of sacrifice (specifically papal sacrifice). Adam Clarke writes:
A symbolical vision was exhibited, in which he [John] saw an altar; and under it the souls of these who had been slain for the word of God--martyred for their attachment to Christianity--are represented as being newly slain as victims to idolatry and superstition. The altar is upon earth, not in heaven.
They had gone down to the grave in the most ignominious manner. Their lives had been misrepresented, their reputation tarnished, their names defamed, their motives maligned, and their graves covered with shame and reproach, as containing the dishonored dust of the most vile and despicable characters. Thus the church of Rome, which then molded the sentiment of the principal nations of the earth, spared no pains to make her victims an abhorrence to all people. i.
In verse 11 they are given white robes. After the Reformation began its work, those that had died were vindicated - it was seen that they had suffered, not for being vile criminals, but for "the word of God and for the testimony which they held".
Then their praises were sung, their virtues admired, their fortitude applauded, their names honored, and their memories cherished. White robes were thus given to every one of them. ii.
This seal just as the others represents a period of time, and this one begins when the Reformation began to undermine the papal dominion and restrained the persecuting power of the Roman Catholic Church.
"A little season": The cruel work of the Roman Catholic church did not cease even after the Protestant Reformation had been widely established. It continued until in the 1750's when finally the spirit of persecution was restrained. The full vindication of their cause would have to be delayed.
"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" refers to the multitudes that were still to be persecuted during the Reformation. And the reformation is not yet over. Many reformers gave up their lives for their work of bringing the Bible to the people and speaking against the errors of the Roman Catholic faith. Nicholas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, Lawrence Saunders, and many more were killed for their stance against the Catholic church.
i. Commentary on the New Testament, Adam Clarke, Vol I, p. 994

 

[ewq1938]

Today, when you die, you get a new body instantly so you never have to experience the state of death, because Jesus gave us eternal life, but the old testament saints did actually experience the state of death because the new spiritual body was not yet available to them.

It isn't available to anyone yet. The bible places the resurrection at the second coming, not at death of the current body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead are raised at the last trump and it has not yet sounded so no one is in the new body yet.

 

[Brakelite]

What you and I believe is very similar, at least up to a point. We both believe that after death, we live on as spirits. However, this transition from physical body to spirit, that's where we differ.

You describe it as "the spirit leaves the body". I describe it as "the physical body is replaced with a spiritual body".

The problem with "the spirit leaves the body": It requires you to answer a complicated question, which I don't think you can answer. And the question is: What are you? Are you a body? If yes, then you would have to agree with "the physical body is replaced with a spiritual body" otherwise you would have to claim that you do not live on after death, and I don't think you are claiming that. If you say you are spirit, living inside of a body, then when the body dies, you don't die, because you are not the thing that died. Only your vessel died, because you are the spirit, not the body. If you say you are the combination of spirit and body, then you have a real problem because it would not allow the spirit and body to separate from each other, as both parts would have their own consciousness and that would require you to be two people. So that doesn't work. Any way you slice it, your consciousness determines what you are, because where your consciousness is, there you are.

The reason why the body replacement theory makes sense: It allows us to understand what has changed since Jesus' resurrection. Something must have changed, otherwise what was the point of Jesus' death and resurrection? And when we look at OT scriptures, we can clearly see what has changed, and that is that in the OT the saints did not go to heaven upon death. Nowhere does it say that any saint went to heaven when they died, or that they went on to live as spirits when they died. Instead, we see countless examples of the dead resting in the dust, with their fathers. These examples can not be denied. And when we accept the statement that "the dead know nothing", we can confirm that the dead, in those days, lost consciousness. Their bodies were not replaced with spiritual bodies. The physical body was all they had, and so when they died, they actually died, just like God said "to dust you will return". Today, it's different. Today, when you die, you get a new body instantly so you never have to experience the state of death, because Jesus gave us eternal life, but the old testament saints did actually experience the state of death because the new spiritual body was not yet available to them.

My doctrine fits perfectly with scripture. Yours does not. You have to pretend that all those OT verses don't really mean what they say. I don't have that problem. I can accept what they say, and make sense of it all.

I agree with your previous posts, but here, not do much. I do agree that there is a spiritual body awaiting those who die in the flesh. But that event of inheriting that promise is not realised until the resurrection.

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:41-53
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[ewq1938]

We all know that the soul can speak...but we are talking about dead people here under an altar. We must not take just one verse out of a symbolic apocalyptic book and base an entire genre of doctrine upon it.

That's a tired and incorrect excuse...yada yada symbolic book blah blah. Most of Revelation is literal. Only a little of it is symbolic. The dead souls speaking and being spoken to is literal.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye shall see him, even those that had pierced him though they died long ago. If they were asleep or dead they couldn't witness his return!


Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Even the wicked are alert, and across a gulf waiting for judgement.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Hmmmm....is Moses asleep somewhere in the Earth or is he here standing next to Elijah?