The Rapture is Post-trib

[PinSeeker]

Good Afternoon,

Question: Do you see Rev 19:17-21 as parallel and same event as Rev 20:7-10?

Yes. In particular:

Revelation 19:20 ~ "And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur."

Revelation 20:10 ~ "...fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were..."

It at least a bit incredulous to me that some don't (or refuse to) see that, but such is the case. The focus is a bit different in Revelation 19 and 20 ~ on different aspects of the larger event itself ~ but yes.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Of course it does. Compare Rev 6:12-17 to Matthew 24:29. Jesus returns immediately after that and Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9 both refer to what will happen when Jesus returns.

I have compared Rev 6:12-17 to Matthew 24:29-31...........and they are the same event. Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. So there is no problem comparing Rev 6 to Matthew 24. That's not the issue. The issue is that the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 and Matthew 24 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

Tribulation is not wrath. So when Jesus comes in Rev 6 and Matthew 24, it is for a harvest, BEFORE the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

So Jesus comes for a harvest when the 6th seal is opened, which is the second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. Then the wrath of God begins. Wrath ends when the 7th trumpet is blown. Then Jesus sets up His kingdom.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The second advent happens when Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives

Do you think the book of Revelation is a chronological account of events from beginning to end? If so, you are very mistaken and are not understanding how the book is laid out. You're missing the recapitulations and parallels in the book.

I realize that Revelation is not in Chronological order. However, I'm pretty sure that you do not understand the order. Please feel free to post the order of Revelation if you can. I'll make it easy. We'll leave out Revelation 1-5, 12, 17,18, 20, 21 and 22.

So if you, or anyone else thinks they understand the order of the events of Revelation please attempt to put these chapters in the order they happen. Revelation 6 ,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19

 

[The Light]

This is complete nonsense.

To one without eyes to see.

When the Lord comes He will send His angels to gather the elect. Those are not two separate events. Good grief.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that this describes Him coming and then describes Him sending His angels to gather the elect at that time. How are you getting two separate events from this?

When Jesus comes in Matthew 24 it is BEFORE the wrath of God. It happens at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. So Jesus returns for a harvest before the 7th seal of wrath is opened. Jesus returns at the end of wrath and sets up His kingdom. Two separate comings. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, it is the second rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes. In particular:

Revelation 19:20 ~ "And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur."

Revelation 20:10 ~ "...fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were..."

It at least a bit incredulous to me that some don't (or refuse to) see that, but such is the case. The focus is a bit different in Revelation 19 and 20 ~ on different aspects of the larger event itself ~ but yes.

Grace and peace to you.

i am glad you posted these verses - thank you

They CLEARLY show forth that they are completely separate events.

a.) Rev 19 = "beast and false prophet thrown INTO a lake of fire" - FYI, a lake is a located body of water but in this case it is fire.

b.) Rev 20 = fire comes DOWN from Heaven to earth = these are two separate 'fires' where one is a permanent location and the other came DOWN from Heaven/God. Also the Devil is thrown into the SEPARATE Fire which is an eternal specific location.
This specific location called the lake of fire PREVIOUSLY contains the beast and false prophet BEFORE satan is thrown into it.

c.) Rev 19;20 and Rev 20:10 are separated by a 'THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD OF TIME'

It is impossible that they are the same event = according to the details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary

 

[PinSeeker]

i am glad you posted these verses - thank you

Well, you're welcome...

They CLEARLY show forth that they are completely separate events.

To some, in their opinion, yes.

a.) Rev 19 = "beast and false prophet thrown INTO a lake of fire" - FYI, a lake is a located body of water but in this case it is fire.

b.) Rev 20 = fire comes DOWN from Heaven to earth = these are two separate 'fires' where one is a permanent location and the other came DOWN from Heaven/God. Also the Devil is thrown into the SEPARATE Fire which is an eternal specific location.
This specific location called the lake of fire PREVIOUSLY contains the beast and false prophet BEFORE satan is thrown into it.

You're missing my focus in posting those two verses, David. Or purposely making the focus something different... The specific parallel is "These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur" (Rev.19:20) and "thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were" (Rev.20). Hard to miss that but many do, for, well, one reason or another; it's really an over-parsing of God's Word. You see, Satan counterfeits God, and thus is represented by John (really by God) in his vision as a trinity, which he is not and God truly is. It is what it is. So... read on...

c.) Rev 19;20 and Rev 20:10 are separated by a 'THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD OF TIME'

Disagree. The events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not occur between Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10, but rather before both. At the very least, the beast and false prophet are not in this "lake of fire that burns with sulfur" a thousand years before the devil is thrown there. And yes, it is the same "place" in both chapters. In the larger context of Revelation as a whole, Revelation 20:1-15 is to be seen as a seventh cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

It is impossible that they are the same event...

It is possible (if one understands what I said immediately above)... and correct ~ using your own words, according to the details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary. But... we disagree, and that's... okay.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

i am glad you posted these verses - thank you

They CLEARLY show forth that they are completely separate events.

a.) Rev 19 = "beast and false prophet thrown INTO a lake of fire" - FYI, a lake is a located body of water but in this case it is fire.

b.) Rev 20 = fire comes DOWN from Heaven to earth = these are two separate 'fires' where one is a permanent location and the other came DOWN from Heaven/God. Also the Devil is thrown into the SEPARATE Fire which is an eternal specific location.
This specific location called the lake of fire PREVIOUSLY contains the beast and false prophet BEFORE satan is thrown into it.

c.) Rev 19;20 and Rev 20:10 are separated by a 'THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD OF TIME'

It is impossible that they are the same event = according to the details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary

Dear Brother = scripture is self-evident here expressing a CLEAR separation of events via 1,000 Years

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

a.) Please take note that for something to "expire" it must first have a 'beginning'. In this case, TIME beginning with Year 1 counting forward to finalize and "expire" when the "thousand years" have finished their course.
This is confirmed from the very START = "he/satan should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished."

b.) The beast and false prophet are thrown INTO the (designated location) "lake of fire" PRIOR to the "thousand years".

Again, it is impossible that they are the same event = according to these specific details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary

 

[PinSeeker]

Dear Brother = scripture is self-evident here expressing a CLEAR separation of events via 1,000 Years

You think that; I completely understand. And, I respect that you do think that. I think differently.

Now when the thousand years have expired,

Which is to say... this is a vision given to John; he's being "shown" things in a dream, like Jacob and later Joseph in Genesis; I hear the whole "allegory" refrain coming again ...that when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening of Israel removed (as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26), all Israel will have been saved, and this will signal the end of the millennium and prompt the return of Christ Jesus. It's not a literal one-thousand-year period, but rather the complete amount of our time that God has ordained and/or appointed, just as the following:

• "Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations" (Deuteronomy 7:9) ~ to all generations
• "...remember His covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations" (1 Chronicles 16:15) ~ to all generations
• "a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere" (Psalm 84:10) ~ any number of days, an infinite number of days
• "He remembers his covenant forever, the word that He commanded, for a thousand generations" (Psalm 105:8) ~ to all generations
• "...with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day (2 Peter 3:8) ~ the passage of our time, which may seem long to us ~ even the completeness of our time, from creation to Christ's return, is nothing to Him; at all times He is.

Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations...

Yes, of course... You disagree, I know, but the "prison" is is in now... He's very much unable to stop the spread of the Gospel to all nations now, completely bound and sealed in that way. But when "the thousand years are ended" ~ when Israel is complete... when all that God has purposed from before creation to save have been saved ~ then he will be unbound for a short time, but "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short," as Jesus says in Matthew 24:22, and then Christ will return.

Please take note that for something to "expire" it must first have a 'beginning'.

Yes, but this takes us back to what I said above. I'll only add here that you're inadvertently applying a different context to "after the thousand years are ended" in Revelation 20 than John's.

In this case, TIME beginning with Year 1 counting forward to finalize and "expire" when the "thousand years" have finished their course.
This is confirmed from the very START = "he/satan should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished."

b.) The beast and false prophet are thrown INTO the (designated location) "lake of fire" PRIOR to the "thousand years".

Well I agree with Scripture, of course, but not with your take (the premillennial and postmillennial takes) on those specific things; and I explained why above.

Again, it is impossible that they are the same event = according tothese specific details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary

And I say ~ again ~ otherwise... according to these specific details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sometimes ~ based on what the "challenge" and/or "question" is... and maybe who it's coming from ~ it is wise to do so.

I am well aware of that. I wasn't saying otherwise. You took me a bit too literally there, I think.

Excellent. Yes, the basic problem is that many think that the events of Revelation 20:1-6 are sequentially following those events described in Revelation 19:11-21, which is not the case at all.

Agree.

Revelation 20:1 begins a new "judgment cycle," and ends with the final Judgment, found in 20:11-15 and the making of all things new ~ the new heaven and new earth ~ in Revelation 21:1-8. You're right; Revelation 19:11-21 is a parallel passage to Revelation 20:7-10, which describes the same event in a slightly different way.

Well, I wouldn't say that Revelation 19:11-21 is parallel to Rev 20:7-10. I think it's parallel to Revelation 20:9-10. Both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9-15 describe things that will happen on the day Christ returns.

Grace and peace to you, SI.

And to you as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dear Brother = scripture is self-evident here expressing a CLEAR separation of events via 1,000 Years

But, what events are they and is it a literal thousand years or a figurative thousand years? Those are questions that I don't think you currently have the right answers to.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

a.) Please take note that for something to "expire" it must first have a 'beginning'. In this case, TIME beginning with Year 1 counting forward to finalize and "expire" when the "thousand years" have finished their course.
This is confirmed from the very START = "he/satan should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished."

You were talking to PinSeeker about this. Does he believe the thousand years don't expire? Maybe I missed that. Whether it's literal or not, the thousand years clearly do expire and are followed by what many of us call Satan's little season.

b.) The beast and false prophet are thrown INTO the (designated location) "lake of fire" PRIOR to the "thousand years".

Again, it is impossible that they are the same event = according to these specific details scripture itself gives, without any interpretation necessary

It does not say that they are thrown into the lake of fire prior to the thousand years. That is your belief based on the ASSUMPTION that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Of course, I know that you are well aware that not everything in the book of Revelation is in chronological order.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Slightly different? It's completely different in every way.

Do you even know where the battle of Rev 19 happens at? And the same for the Rev 20 battle?

Oh yeah, in terms of Revelation 20 you think that billions of unbelievers from throughout the world will somehow all physically gather together in one place. I'd love to see an explanation of the logistics of that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have compared Rev 6:12-17 to Matthew 24:29-31...........and they are the same event. Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. So there is no problem comparing Rev 6 to Matthew 24. That's not the issue. The issue is that the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 and Matthew 24 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

That's utter nonsense. He's only coming back once.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Can you show me where this indicates He will descend from heaven more than once in the future? Good luck. This passage is very clear that He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven and that's it. It never says He will then go back to heaven and then descend from heaven again and all that nonsense that you believe.

Tribulation is not wrath.

It can be. But, the tribulation of Matthew 24:29 is not wrath. It has to do with a time of major deception in the world when wickedness increases and many people fall away from the faith.

So when Jesus comes in Rev 6 and Matthew 24, it is for a harvest, BEFORE the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

It is the final wrath of God that comes down when Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days.

So Jesus comes for a harvest when the 6th seal is opened, which is the second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. Then the wrath of God begins. Wrath ends when the 7th trumpet is blown. Then Jesus sets up His kingdom.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The second advent happens when Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives

Nope. You're missing the parallels. Acting as if the wrath referenced in Rev 6:12-17 will take a long time (years) to come down is just silly.

I realize that Revelation is not in Chronological order. However, I'm pretty sure that you do not understand the order.

I do. You clearly do not. It couldn't be more clear that you have it all completely jumbled up.

Please feel free to post the order of Revelation if you can. I'll make it easy. We'll leave out Revelation 1-5, 12, 17,18, 20, 21 and 22.

So if you, or anyone else thinks they understand the order of the events of Revelation please attempt to put these chapters in the order they happen. Revelation 6 ,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19

I already showed you the passages that I believe refer to His one and only second coming. Do you think I have all the time in the world to spell everything out to you? Maybe when I have more time, I'll go through the order as I see it, but what I already said should give you an idea.

 

[David in NJ]

But, what events are they and is it a literal thousand years or a figurative thousand years? Those are questions that I don't think you currently have the right answers to.


You were talking to PinSeeker about this. Does he believe the thousand years don't expire? Maybe I missed that. Whether it's literal or not, the thousand years clearly do expire and are followed by what many of us call Satan's little season.


It does not say that they are thrown into the lake of fire prior to the thousand years. That is your belief based on the ASSUMPTION that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Of course, I know that you are well aware that not everything in the book of Revelation is in chronological order.

Rev ch19 is the definitive Return of the King = JESUS Second Coming

Do you see that in Rev 19:11-21 ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev ch19 is the definitive Return of the King = JESUS Second Coming

Do you see that in Rev 19:11-21 ?

Yes, of course. Did I say anything to lead you to think that I thought otherwise? If so, what was it exactly?

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, of course. Did I say anything to lead you to think that I thought otherwise?

No, but i just wanted to make sure - thank you

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, but i just wanted to make sure - thank you

Why did you think you needed to make sure? I must have said something to make you unsure of how I interpreted that, so can you tell me what that was?

 

[David in NJ]

Why did you think you needed to make sure? I must have said something to make you unsure of how I interpreted that, so can you tell me what that was?

Nothing to be concerned about.

We have not spoken directly to each other for some time so it is a good brotherly refresher.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The last few pages have been funny. Back and forth like a game of ping pong.

@The Light have you ever wondered what those who are alive and remain…remained alive from? The word remain is the same word for surviving. So what do those raptured, taken by force, survive that everyone else died from if you believe they are taken before anything bad happens? Because survival, when everyone else died, doesn’t make sense on a Pre-TB timeline. Look up that word in the Greek. How does it logically fit?

From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain

 

[The Light]

That's utter nonsense. He's only coming back once.

He comes for the dead in Chirst
He returns for the alive that remained.
He comes for the 144,000 first fruits
He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal
He comes with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And He will return in like manner.

Can you show me where this indicates He will descend from heaven more than once in the future? Good luck

Can you show me where this indicates He will not descend from heaven more than once in the future. Good luck.

. This passage is very clear that He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven and that's it. It never says He will then go back to heaven and then descend from heaven again and all that nonsense that you believe.

This passage is very clear that Jesus will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day. It never says He will go back to heaven at all.
Luke 24
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

It can be. But, the tribulation of Matthew 24:29 is not wrath. It has to do with a time of major deception in the world when wickedness increases and many people fall away from the faith.

I know tribulation is not wrath. That is exactly the point.

Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation of those days which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH. And you claim it is the same coming as Jesus returning at the end of wrath.

Can you not understand your error?

It is the final wrath of God that comes down when Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days.

Not hardly. Jesus returns at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH and then you want to claim it is the same coming as His coming after wrath.

Totally incorrect logic.

Nope. You're missing the parallels. Acting as if the wrath referenced in Rev 6:12-17 will take a long time (years) to come down is just silly.

No, I'm saying tribulation is over at the sixth seal, just as the Word says. The seventh seal of wrath has not been opened and yet Jesus has already returned.

Somehow you want to claim that Jesus return at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation is the same coming as Jesus coming at the end of wrath when the 7th seal has not even been opened.

I do. You clearly do not. It couldn't be more clear that you have it all completely jumbled up.

Hmmm. You better pay more attention.

 

[David in NJ]

The last few pages have been funny. Back and forth like a game of ping pong.

@The Light have you ever wondered what those who are alive and remain…remained alive from? The word remain is the same word for surviving. So what do those raptured, taken by force, survive that everyone else died from if you believe they are taken before anything bad happens? Because survival, when everyone else died, doesn’t make sense on a Pre-TB timeline. Look up that word in the Greek. How does it logically fit?

From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain

waz the mattah u

 

[The Light]

I already showed you the passages that I believe refer to His one and only second coming. Do you think I have all the time in the world to spell everything out to you? Maybe when I have more time, I'll go through the order as I see it, but what I already said should give you an idea.

That does not address the challenge that I presented you. Didn't you say.......and I quote "I never back away from a challenge or from a question."
It's a simple challenge to you and anyone else.

So if you, or anyone else thinks they understand the order of the events of Revelation please attempt to put these chapters in the order they happen. Revelation 6 ,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19