The Rapture is Post-trib

[Davy]

Here's a question for those who believe men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory...

Why would any TRUE Christian preacher ever teach to be in the group of the first one TAKEN per Luke 17, since Lord Jesus showed that first one 'taken' is to wheresoever the fowls that eat on a dead carcase are gathered, according to Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples per Luke 17:37? Just who... would teach such as LIE against what Jesus said there in that last verse of Luke 17?

And the fact that Pre-trib Rapture theory author Tim LaHaye would write a 13 book series preaching for believers to be the 1st one TAKEN, and not Left-behind, and then make that into movies supported by Hollywood Orthodox unbelieving Jews, and with popular actors like Nicolas Cage, reveals there are some really 'dark'... secrets behind that false Pre-trib Rapture theory movement today.

 

[ewq1938]

I can provide a scripture that clearly states it. You seem unfamiliar with it.

Luke 21
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Posting one verse out of context is bad form.

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Only the one not watching will be surprised by the return of the Son of man. The watchers will know when he is coming because Christ gave the signs to watch for, and gave even more info and details to John in Rev, and to Paul:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

 

[The Light]

Those scriptures, in FACT, do not speak of a pre-trib rapture.

JESUS, in Fact, repudiates your error in His Revelation = chapter 16

And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Amazingly, I got a call from a friend about this very verse today at lunch.

His comment was something is wrong with this verse being in Revelation 16. I told Him what the verse was before He even quoted it. I was amazed that He understood.

Jesus comes as a thief when there is a rapture. There is no rapture before the battle of Armageddon.

Since you don't understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal you will never grasp what is happening.

Immediately after the tribulation, they will say peace and safety..............................................................................

 

[The Light]

There is only one harvest or gathering and it is known as the rapture. It happens at the second coming.

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests. One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. One the dead in Christ rise first followed by the alive that remained and one when the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. One when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and one after blindness is removed from part of Israel.

 

[Davy]

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests. One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. One the dead in Christ rise first followed by the alive that remained and one when the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. One when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and one after blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Of course, none of that is written in The New Testament by Christ or His Apostles. That is simply trying... to use Old Testament events PUSHED INTO New Testament Scripture where it does not exist. And that kind of thing points to Judaizers doing that, which is about Jewish converts to Christ that Apostle Paul had a difficult time with per his Epistle to the Galatians. These same type of Judaizers were likely the same ones that were causing confusion about the order of Christ's future coming, which was why Apostle Paul had to repeat his lesson of 2 Thessalonians 2 to show the 'order' of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

 

[The Light]

Posting one verse out of context is bad form.

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

These verses are about the Church. The Church will not know when He is coming so they are told to watch.

Only the one not watching will be surprised by the return of the Son of man. The watchers will know when he is coming because Christ gave the signs to watch for, and gave even more info and details to John in Rev, and to Paul:

You don't know the signs. You are looking for the Antichrist to come first.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This is for the Jews. This also disproves what you have been saying about the coming of Jesus.

We see He comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. BEFORE the wrath of God.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[David in NJ]

Amazingly, I got a call from a friend about this very verse today at lunch.

His comment was something is wrong with this verse being in Revelation 16. I told Him what the verse was before He even quoted it. I was amazed that He understood.

Jesus comes as a thief when there is a rapture. There is no rapture before the battle of Armageddon.

Since you don't understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal you will never grasp what is happening.

Immediately after the tribulation, they will say peace and safety..............................................................................

Pre-fibbers do not understand that Revelation is an Iteration of the LORD'S Second Coming.

This is why, we who are wise, understand JESUS saying “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.” in chapter 16.

 

[The Light]

Of course, none of that is written in The New Testament by Christ or His Apostles. That is simply trying... to use Old Testament events PUSHED INTO New Testament Scripture where it does not exist. And that kind of thing points to Judaizers doing that, which is about Jewish converts to Christ that Apostle Paul had a difficult time with per his Epistle to the Galatians. These same type of Judaizers were likely the same ones that were causing confusion about the order of Christ's future coming, which was why Apostle Paul had to repeat his lesson of 2 Thessalonians 2 to show the 'order' of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

All this is New Testament.

One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. One the dead in Christ rise first followed by the alive that remained and one when the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. One when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and one after blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Additionally, if you understood the Word of God, you would see the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

You would also understand that the Tribulation is over at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

 

[Davy]

So let's look at how Lord Jesus ACTUALLY used the idea of Noah's day, and the time of Lot, regarding His future coming to gather His saints.

Matt 24:35-39
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

The idea of Heaven and earth passing away is pointing to the LAST DAY of this world when God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth, like Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10, on the "day of the Lord". That future event happens on the day of Christ's future coming to gather His faithful Church. It will end this present world, and the wicked's control over it.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

Noah and his family were protected by God inside... the Ark. They did not leave that flood, they were protected through... it. God even sealed them into that Ark. For the end, Jesus Christ is OUR ARK of protection. And likewise as those outside the Ark in Noah's day were TAKEN by the flood, so will it be on the day of Christ's coming with God's consuming fire event upon this earth.


With the example of the days of Lot, Jesus used it to point to the future consuming fire by God on the last day of this world when Jesus comes for His elect Church...

Luke 17:28-30
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
KJV


So let me ask. Is there ANYTHING THERE THAT JESUS MENTIONED that points to His saints being RAPTURED before any of those events happen?? NOPE! Nothing.

You would think then, that IF there really was a RAPTURE prior to those events, He certainly would NOT be using the time of Noah and Lot which were PROTECTED through that flood, and through that fire and brimstone.

 

[The Light]

With the example of the days of Lot, Jesus used it to point to the future consuming fire by God on the last day of this world when Jesus comes for His elect Church...

Luke 17:28-30
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
So let me ask. Is there ANYTHING THERE THAT JESUS MENTIONED that points to His saints being RAPTURED before any of those events happen?? NOPE! Nothing.

The Son of man is revealed at the 6th seal. The same day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So it will be when the second rapture occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.

KJV



You would think then, that IF there really was a RAPTURE prior to those events, He certainly would NOT be using the time of Noah and Lot which were PROTECTED through that flood, and through that fire and brimstone.

The Church is raptured when it is like the days of Noah. The flood came 7 days after Noah was told to enter the ark.
The 144,000 from the 12 tribes across the earth are the first fruits of the second harvest. And if you know what the first fruits are, you know what the harvest will be.
That's gotta be some bad news.

 

[David in NJ]

All this is New Testament.

One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels. One at the trump of God or voice of God and one at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. One the dead in Christ rise first followed by the alive that remained and one when the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. One when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and one after blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Additionally, if you understood the Word of God, you would see the Church in heaven before the seals are opened.

You would also understand that the Tribulation is over at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God begins.

Time to wake Up.

Revelation chapter 18
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
4And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

 

[ewq1938]

There are two raptures.

No, there is only one. Paul and Christ spoke of this event and both placed it after the trib.

There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides.

lol, he had one nose. Is that how things like a rapture is proven?

The fig tree has two harvests. One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot.

Both are used to show similarity to the second coming. They are alike, not different and separate as you interpret.

One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels.

Both happen actually. Christ comes with his angels, and he will send his angels to gether the nelct by bring them up to the clouds which is called a rapture/harpazo.

 

[ewq1938]

You don't know the signs. You are looking for the Antichrist to come first.

I know the signs, and the AC does come first as a false christ and he will have other false things to aid in fooling even Christians into believing he is the real Christ. Careful with a Departure because you might depart too much.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I responded.............IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. That is the tribulation.

Where? There's something very wrong with you. You asked me a question about "the tribulation" without telling me what your understanding of "the tribulation" is. I can't answer it without knowing what you think "the tribulation" is first. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

So are you just like @Davy and afraid to respond when asked a direct scriptural question?

Not at all. Again, there's something very wrong with you. I never back away from a challenge or from a question.

Can you Identify in the book of Revelation when the tribulation is over. Chapter and verse?

Define your understanding of the "tribulation" and then I will answer the question. Am I asking too much? How can I answer the question without first knowing your understanding of "the tribulation"?

I'll just answer it this way since you don't want to tell me what you think "the tribulation" is.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days", so if you're asking which verses in Revelation correlate with Matthew 24:29-31, then I would say Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 10:7, Revelation 11:11-13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9. There are several parallel passages within the book that portray the second coming of Christ from different angles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 6 has nothing whatsoever to do with Revelation 19 and 20!

Of course it does. Compare Rev 6:12-17 to Matthew 24:29. Jesus returns immediately after that and Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9 both refer to what will happen when Jesus returns.

Do you think the book of Revelation is a chronological account of events from beginning to end? If so, you are very mistaken and are not understanding how the book is laid out. You're missing the recapitulations and parallels in the book.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests. One like the days of Noah and likewise also one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes and one He sends His angels.

This is complete nonsense. When the Lord comes He will send His angels to gather the elect. Those are not two separate events. Good grief.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that this describes Him coming and then describes Him sending His angels to gather the elect at that time. How are you getting two separate events from this?

 

[PinSeeker]

I never back away from a challenge or from a question.

Sometimes ~ based on what the "challenge" and/or "question" is... and maybe who it's coming from ~ it is wise to do so.

Compare Rev 6:12-17 to Matthew 24:29. Jesus returns immediately after that and Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:9 both refer to what will happen when Jesus returns.

Excellent. Yes, the basic problem is that many think that the events of Revelation 20:1-6 are sequentially following those events described in Revelation 19:11-21, which is not the case at all. Revelation 20:1 begins a new "judgment cycle," and ends with the final Judgment, found in 20:11-15 and the making of all things new ~ the new heaven and new earth ~ in Revelation 21:1-8. You're right; Revelation 19:11-21 is a parallel passage to Revelation 20:7-10, which describes the same event in a slightly different way.

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[ewq1938]

You're right; Revelation 19:11-21 is a parallel passage to Revelation 20:7-10, which describes the same event in a slightly different way.

Slightly different? It's completely different in every way.

Do you even know where the battle of Rev 19 happens at? And the same for the Rev 20 battle?

 

[PinSeeker]

Slightly different? It's completely different in every way.

In... your opinion...

Do you even know where the battle of Rev 19 happens at? And the same for the Rev 20 battle?

I don't know where you think they "happen at." And I'm not interested in exploring your opinions regarding either. Because I've heard enough to know that it's... wise to just back away from... well, to gracefully back away.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

In... your opinion...


I don't know where you think they "happen at." And I'm not interested in exploring your opinions regarding either. Because I've heard enough to know that it's... wise to just back away from... well, to gracefully back away.

Grace and peace to you.

Good Afternoon,

Question: Do you see Rev 19:17-21 as parallel and same event as Rev 20:7-10?