Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

Someone posted scripture yesterday from around John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." I would say, the Holy Spirit "clicked" a thought in me, which I hadn't connected or thought of. This is going back to earlier in John 3, where Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Our flesh's natural realm is this earth. So when we walk by the flesh, we are physically walking here. However, if one is born again, they have a spirit given by God, which is from heaven. So then one can say the natural realm for the spirit, is not the earth, but the heavenly realm? So, if one is walking in the spirit, naturaly, they would be walking in the heavenly realm? As that is where the spirit is from? Just some thoughts to share, and see what others think.

Yes. But there is a cost to experiencing the spiritual walk that is superimposed on this temporal walk. The cost is ALL. The parables of Jesus make that clear....and this can be experienced. When we find the treasure...or are shown the treasure...think "Born-again of the Spirit"....we have to BUY THE FIELD in order to make it ours. That buying is SOOO frowned upon by modern religionists...it is seen as "works"...because they hate to have to go to God or give up their lives. Better to stick with what is free and easy. God is evaluating us on our worthiness the way we either take Him seriously...or ourselves...as so many do.

We need a full surrender to enter into the kingdom realm. Jesus said..seek first the kingdom...but for MANY reasons, nobody does it. In the past people had physical excuses..I just married a wife, I just bought some oxen...etc.... But today people use spiritual excuses...as in I already have everything I need. I am rich and in need of nothing. Thus, these TOTALLY ignore the upward call in Christ.

 

[marks]

reminds me of this basic truth

Romans 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Personally, I've found this understanding to be transformative. It's coming to realize our true state.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

we have to BUY THE FIELD in order to make it ours. That buying is SOOO frowned upon by modern religionists...it is seen as "works"...because they hate to have to go to God or give up their lives.

and here we go.

We have to purchase our entrance into heaven.

The cross was not enough.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Personally, I've found this understanding to be transformative. It's coming to realize our true state.

Much love!

it begs the question

if the body is dead because of ongoing sin

how is the spirit alive because of righteousness? Since if we have sin we are not righteous

oh wait, It gives us the answer.

If Christ is IN YOU

its not our righteousness, it is Christ in us,, his righteousness..

 

[marks]

it begs the question

if the body is dead because of ongoing sin

how is the spirit alive because of righteousness? Since if we have sin we are not righteous

oh wait, It gives us the answer.

If Christ is IN YOU

its not our righteousness, it is Christ in us,, his righteousness..

While we once derived our life from our bodies, now we derive our life from the Spirit of Christ within us.

While our nature was once determined by the nature of our flesh from which we derived our life, now our nature is determined by the Spirit of Christ, from Whom we now derive our life.

We once lived a fleshy life bound to the sin/death law, now we live a spiritual life freed from that law, under a new law.

Only sometimes we lose track of that truth, and live or act as though we were still that fleshy being. And we can see when that happens in how we think, and feel, and act. But we need to be watchful, else we slip into fleshiness and not realize it until becoming entangled.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

and here we go.

We have to purchase our entrance into heaven.

The cross was not enough.

The cross IS the price...that WE pay...to be crucified in His death so we can be brought into new life in Him.

Stop thinking of the cross as only for Jesus. If you ever want to be a disciple of Christ you need to go to the cross yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

it begs the question

if the body is dead because of ongoing sin

how is the spirit alive because of righteousness? Since if we have sin we are not righteous

oh wait, It gives us the answer.

If Christ is IN YOU

its not our righteousness, it is Christ in us,, his righteousness..

as in...no longer I but Christ doing the sinning???? Distort the reality and live the lie.

 

[Hepzibah]

Rather than getting tied up with phrases we do not ourselves use, like the 'higher walk of Zion' we should concentrate on the idea behind it. Unfortunately, the Holiness Movement that swept the US, was/is misused and misunderstood by many, and became legalistic. We should not base our understanding on its failures.

The basic idea, avoiding contentious terms, is that coming to Christ for forgiveness once one knows that one is a sinner, then slowly improving ones morals, is actually not scriptural and not what was taught in the early church, and at times in later years in the western church.

Not all the early fathers taught this, and not all in the NT did, there have always been those who opposed it but for the ones who did, and those generally were thought of as saints and had halos depicted on paintings of them to show they were different.

Anyone who has read them will know that they spoke of three stages in the spiritual life:

Purification: The Holy Spirit working on those who have come to Christ for forgiveness until there comes a time when they will know that they are not right with God and stuck in Romans 7 if they have not quenched the Spirit and listened to the enemy of our souls. They go round and round the mountain, never getting any better, having sins they thought were gone reappear although they know the gospel and worship God in their own way.

Then comes the illumination of the true gospel, whereby they enter into a higher plain and are righteous and able to overcome temptation although this will be partial.

They will go on to perfection, or entire sanctification or theosis, if they hunger and thirst for righteousness having a training period of losing it, then being restored but eventually are as pillars in the temple and walking 'as He walked' without sin.

They taught that because all men fall, we become psychologically sick and sinners but the church is a hospital where we can learn the way of holiness and be healed of this sickness which keeps us bound to satan in that we are unable to be as God created us, having full fellowship with Him on earth as it is in heaven. Our condition does not change at death, and nowhere is this found. It is for this life we are saved from sin by faith in Jesus Christ who will carry out this work in us unless we turn back in unbelief.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I have the training of one...the calling and experiences of one...for sure...whether I am worthy of being regarded as one by God...I have my doubts. My confidence is in God...not my own faithfulness. I am just a human, and can get caught up with things.

I know the difficulty of the narrow way. I see myself as just a humble brother who is amazed at the holy standard of God.

But I don't give up the race for that. I try to be diligent in my quest for re-entry into the higher walk that is IN Christ (having fallen out of that twice now). I can't get there by any effort...but I can make my own surrendered inclinations conducive to the truth whereby God wants to have me back...by translating me once again into the walk in resurrection life.

(I hope my honesty here is not a stumbling block for any egos here that wish to mock at my testimony. ) See I have cast my pearls before the thread....

Not to mock but in all sincerity, are you saying here @ this moment you are in a "backslidden" condition ? The terminology you are using is of such, a broken relationship with God.

Unrepentant sin is what separates us from him. It is the sin that besets us be it in word or action that causes us to remove ourselves from his holy presence, just as Adam hid from God in the garden.

This walk is not easy but is very narrow, I agree, with many slippery slopes.

Unlike some whom believe that sin is only in the mind and needs no forgiveness when it's is carried out from conception, it is carnal flesh, which wars against the spirit (ours) for we want to do right, and it is against the Spirit ( God's) bc he can be quenched and grieved when we are not following him.

None of us know the other, we simply write words that express our thoughts, some I like, others not so much.

It is time to lay aside the condemnation of one another. According to what & how we respond we stomp on his atonement for us oftentimes.

I do believe it is the forgiveness we have the most of trouble with, from God and to others.

IMO the fruit of a believer still attached in the vine is another believer. The fruit of the Spirit are the attributes of God he brings into our walk in Christ.

I am soley responsible for only me. When I stand before Christ and am judged by my actions and my words, I pray my slate is clean.

So, we do not like everybody's personality or traits of which I confess, I do not. However Christ does not give me the right to behave unkind or be disrespectful. I apologize @Ritajanice , @Behold , @1stCenturyLady ,@St. SteVen ,@patrick 1966, @dev553344 ,@MatthewG ,@Episkopos , @VictoryinJesus ,@Jane_Doe22 ,@Nancy , @stunnedbygrace, @Plavious @Karl Peters and any others I have ignored or bickered with on here. I ask your forgiveness!

I repent of any discord I have communicated here. I will do my best to bring my spirit under subjection to his Spirit. PRAY PLEASE! Just bc we disagree does not make it ok to write in the flesh, attacks subtil or blatant.

I'm sorry

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I've been thinking about an analogy that works to better understand what you mean by the "sample of His grace". Would it be something like the following?
God gifts us his initial grace. It would be like God giving us a very small plant in a pot, which we don't know what it will become. In accepting it, many of us rejoice greatly that God has chosen to give us something, especially from knowing our state of being a sinner. So there is a big wow factor for us. Now, going forward, we have to make two choices at least. Just like any gift, we can take care of it, or put it somewhere and forget it. In the second case, one can put the potted plant away, out of sight, and it will wither and die. We won't ever know what the plant really was.
In the first case, we take care of the plant and water it. As it grows, we plant it outside, and watch it grow into what it really becomes. Its a sort of work we still have to do, but truly, it would be a labor of love, and not hardship. One day, we see the plant has become a fruit tree. The branches are large, and it provides shade for us and others on a hot day. The fruits it produces brings a blessing to us and others as well.

Awesome, thank you !

 

[Episkopos]

Not to mock but in all sincerity, are you saying here @ this moment you are in a "backslidden" condition ? The terminology you are using is of such, a broken relationship with God.

Not backslidden...that would mean I am no longer walking in obedience to God. If you can understand the 2 steps into holiness

From sinfulness to righteousness and from righteousness into holiness.

The training of a saint involves going in and out of the Spirit. The whole purpose is to be perfected in Christ. Some lessons are not so easy.

Unrepentant sin is what separates us from him. It is the sin that besets us be it in word or action that causes us to remove ourselves from his holy presence, just as Adam hid from God in the garden.

Yes. But my sin took place while I was still in the higher walk. I thought I was doing right...but I was fooled. I trusted a brother...rather than going to the Lord. So I am learning more about righteousness...something that like most modern believers I just assumed I understood.

It's very hard today to understand the context of both righteousness and holiness. I have never found anyone in our time who understands this. So I have to learn the hard way...by experience. If that experience can help others...then so be it.

This walk is not easy but is very narrow, I agree, with many slippery slopes.

Yes.

Unlike some whom believe that sin is only in the mind and needs no forgiveness when it's is carried out from conception, it is carnal flesh, which wars against the spirit (ours) for we want to do right, and it is against the Spirit ( God's) bc he can be quenched and grieved when we are not following him.

My problem was not so much with the flesh...but with an immature soul...being faced with great challenges...that were outside anything I thought was possible.

I have since learned that God watches us very intently indeed ..and so does the enemy. The higher the walk the more attacks...clever attacks one receives. It's all meant to make the disciple mature.

None of us know the other, we simply write words that express our thoughts, some I like, others not so much.

It is time to lay aside the condemnation of one another. According to what & how we respond we stomp on his atonement for us oftentimes.

It's all about perception. When we were kids and our parents were driving us a great distance we tended to always ask...are we there yet? that's part of the problem....I thought I had arrived at a place where I was untouchable.

I do believe it is the forgiveness we have the most of trouble with, from God and to others.

IMO the fruit of a believer still attached in the vine is another believer. The fruit of the Spirit are the attributes of God he brings into our walk in Christ.

I am soley responsible for only me. When I stand before Christ and am judged by my actions and my words, I pray my slate is clean.

Amen. In the meantime we are to seek the Lord both for His direct intervention but also through His people.

So, we do not like everybody's personality or traits of which I confess, I do not. However Christ does not give me the right to behave unkind or be disrespectful. I apologize @Ritajanice , @Behold , @1stCenturyLady ,@St. SteVen ,@patrick 1966, @dev553344 ,@MatthewG ,@Episkopos , @VictoryinJesus ,@Jane_Doe22 ,@Nancy , @stunnedbygrace, @Plavious and any others I have ignored or bickered with on here. I ask your forgiveness!

I repent of any discord I have communicated here. I will do my best to bring my spirit under subjection to his Spirit. PRAY PLEASE! Just bc we disagree does not make it ok to write in the flesh, attacks subtil or blatant.

I'm sorry

I for one have no issue with you at all. Be blessed in the Lord. And actually I expect to be misunderstood. So there's that. All I expect is some honesty...and a willingness to dialogue concerning the issue at hand...without all the ego and theatrics.

 

[Azim]

From sinfulness to righteousness and from righteousness into holiness.

I noticed this while studying Romans 6...
Romans 6:19: "I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness."

 

[Episkopos]

I noticed this while studying Romans 6...
Romans 6:19: "I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness."

A lot of people read that and misunderstand how the walk in Christ works. Romans 6 is about leaving sinfulness behind to serve God in righteousness. Even though we be slaves to righteousness...we still sin as per Rom. 7. An intolerable situation.

And this is where many will go astray. Having started out in innocence we can't understand why God wants to test us. Many assume they will sin their whole lives and return to Room. 6...NEVER ever experiencing the walk in victory over sin. What these people do is accept a bad "theology" ..or bad doctrine that mixes Jesus with sin...a sinful holiness.

But SO FEW will reach out to God in surrender...asking, seeking, knocking...until they are translated into the higher walk.

It's like the parable of the woman who sought justice at the lawyers house and hounded him day and night until he answered.

Why is God so tough? As we despairingly seek and beg the Lord...something happens to us...we are gradually expunged of all our "instabilities" that cause unbelief...until we are ready to have faith. Then we are ready to be translated into the kingdom walk. If more people knew about this...we would be hearing of more success stories....like we read about in the bible.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Not backslidden...that would mean I am no longer walking in obedience to God. If you can understand the 2 steps into holiness

From sinfulness to righteousness and from righteousness into holiness.

The training of a saint involves going in and out of the Spirit. The whole purpose is to be perfected in Christ. Some lessons are not so easy.




Yes. But my sin took place while I was still in the higher walk. I thought I was doing right...but I was fooled. I trusted a brother...rather than going to the Lord. So I am learning more about righteousness...something that like most modern believers I just assumed I understood.

It's very hard today to understand the context of both righteousness and holiness. I have never found anyone in our time who understands this. So I have to learn the hard way...by experience. If that experience can help others...then so be it.


Yes.


My problem was not so much with the flesh...but with an immature soul...being faced with great challenges...that were outside anything I thought was possible.

I have since learned that God watches us very intently indeed ..and so does the enemy. The higher the walk the more attacks...clever attacks one receives. It's all meant to make the disciple mature.


It's all about perception. When we were kids and our parents were driving us a great distance we tended to always ask...are we there yet? that's part of the problem....I thought I had arrived at a place where I was untouchable.


Amen. In the meantime we are to seek the Lord both for His direct intervention but also through His people.

I for one have no issue with you at all. Be blessed in the Lord. And actually I expect to be misunderstood. So there's that. All I expect is some honesty...and a willingness to dialogue concerning the issue at hand...without all the ego and theatrics.

Oh how the enemy weaves his web of deceit to ensnare us.

I make no claim to know the perfect mind nor will of God, I struggle also and have not yet arrived
However as Paul said, " I press toward the mark....." We all are flaws of flesh, broken pottery. Yet in submitting to the Master Potter he can repair, replenish and refresh us.

In the end, it is up to every individual to hear the words of truth, accept and act accordingly and keep his light leading our path.

Thank you for your graciousness at my request.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, we do not like everybody's personality or traits of which I confess, I do not. However Christ does not give me the right to behave unkind or be disrespectful. I apologize @Ritajanice , @Behold , @1stCenturyLady ,@St. SteVen ,@patrick 1966, @dev553344 ,@MatthewG ,@Episkopos , @VictoryinJesus ,@Jane_Doe22 ,@Nancy , @stunnedbygrace, @Plavious @Karl Peters and any others I have ignored or bickered with on here. I ask your forgiveness!

I repent of any discord I have communicated here. I will do my best to bring my spirit under subjection to his Spirit. PRAY PLEASE! Just bc we disagree does not make it ok to write in the flesh, attacks subtil or blatant.

I'm sorry

I forgive you.
Thanks for your post. You will do better from here on. (or else) - LOL

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I forgive you.
Thanks for your post. You will do better from here on. (or else) - LOL

We can only hope & pray.
The unfortunate part is I will still be in the flesh and subject to fail, so plz do not hesitate to use this.....
Ephesians 4:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Hepzibah]

The lesson we must learn after we have reached the stage of illumination, is how to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, to see everything through spiritual eyes and not through fleshy eyes. This includes the part of the flesh which is our 'humanness', like our insticts that God has given us. For example, the will to live and protect ourselves.

All must be submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit so all of our impulses come from Him alone. This was part of the testing that Jesus went through in the wilderness. Satan tempted Him to eat, which is not a sin, being the method by which we live, but He was on an inspired fast.

This a the big problem for me, I would interpret rejection from others, as a repeat from my childhood experiences and my emotions would go astray, instead of knowing that, as a child of God satan would use this against me and stop me hearing God's voice through it.

We must learn that we were bought at a great price, and God has every right to decide on our circumstances by allowing them, knowing the bigger picture of what He wants to achieve through us. It is about His glory not our own little lives and extending the kingdom.

Job made this problem when he was presented with his God departing from him (in his eyes) after such a closeness with Him. The heavens were brass. All reason told him that he had sinned, and the voices around told him so, but there was no answer when he cried out 'show me where I have sinned'. When he learned his lesson, that he must allow God to 'come and go' as He pleased, which is the coming and going out of the blessing, that the lesson was learned and he was blessed with double of what he had before. It is so with us, but in the spiritual realm.

Once we depend on the flesh, we are then ready to 'fall' and sin. Sin always separates us from God.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The lesson we must learn after we have reached the stage of illumination, is how to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, to see everything through spiritual eyes and not through fleshy eyes. This includes the part of the flesh which is our 'humanness', like our insticts that God has given us. For example, the will to live and protect ourselves.

All must be submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit so all of our impulses come from Him alone. This was part of the testing that Jesus went through in the wilderness. Satan tempted Him to eat, which is not a sin, being the method by which we live, but He was on an inspired fast.

This a the big problem for me, I would interpret rejection from others, as a repeat from my childhood experiences and my emotions would go astray, instead of knowing that, as a child of God satan would use this against me and stop me hearing God's voice through it.

We must learn that we were bought at a great price, and God has every right to decide on our circumstances by allowing them, knowing the bigger picture of what He wants to achieve through us. It is about His glory not our own little lives and extending the kingdom.

Job made this problem when he was presented with his God departing from him (in his eyes) after such a closeness with Him. The heavens were brass. All reason told him that he had sinned, and the voices around told him so, but there was no answer when he cried out 'show me where I have sinned'. When he learned his lesson, that he must allow God to 'come and go' as He pleased, which is the coming and going out of the blessing, that the lesson was learned and he was blessed with double of what he had before. It is so with us, but in the spiritual realm.

Once we depend on the flesh, we are then ready to 'fall' and sin. Sin always separates us from God.

Well said!
What we in our " humanness" fail to realize is this; it is not about us rather it is about him in us & our walk.
Therefore we must bring everything in our hearts, minds and souls under subjection to his Spirit.

 

[St. SteVen]

This a the big problem for me, I would interpret rejection from others, as a repeat from my childhood experiences and my emotions would go astray, instead of knowing that, as a child of God satan would use this against me and stop me hearing God's voice through it.

Great post, thanks.
I just saw a very interesting video on this subject. Overexplaining is a symptom of childhood rejection.
Link below.

 

[Hepzibah]

Thank you @St. SteVen that video was great and was a real help to me to understand what was going on.