The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Truth7t7]

The time of trouble such as never was will be devastating, and many even of the saints will not live through it and be put to sleep in the grave during this time. It is the living saints who are the 144,000 at the end, while those saints asleep in Christ who are sealed, will be brought up in the clouds to be taken to heaven.

The post sounds like Ellen G White and the false doctrine of "Soul Sleep" found in 7th Day Adventism

 

[PinSeeker]

The Church will not go through the tribulation...

That's a strange statement, especially that Christ's Church (all those who are in Christ) is (are) currently enduring and persevering through ~ by God's power through His Holy Spirit ~ these times of tribulation. Even in all this, Christ is with us by His Spirit to the end, even as He promised. God certainly never promises to remove us from tribulation but rather to never to leave nor forsake us... to always be with us through it, sustaining us and keeping us to the end. And not only that, but to work all things together ~ all things ~ for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Indeed, we serve a great and awesome God.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[The Light]

That's a strange statement, especially that Christ's Church (all those who are in Christ) is (are) currently enduring and persevering through ~ by God's power through His Holy Spirit ~ these times of tribulation. Even in all this, Christ is with us by His Spirit to the end, even as He promised. God certainly never promises to remove us from tribulation but rather to never to leave nor forsake us... to always be with us through it, sustaining us and keeping us to the end. And not only that, but to work all things together ~ all things ~ for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Indeed, we serve a great and awesome God.

Grace and peace to all.

Ok. The Church, meaning mostly Gentiles at this time, will not go through the tribulation of those days, the Great Tribulation

 

[PinSeeker]

Ok. The Church, meaning mostly Gentiles at this time, will not go through the tribulation of those days, the Great Tribulation

Well, I'm not sure of your thoughts regarding the "Great Tribulation," so I'll not foist anything on you, but merely give you mine. :)

1. I disagree with your understanding of Christ's Church, or at least what I think is your understanding of it. I say it consists of all those who are called by the Lord and thus in Christ.​

​

2. Regarding a "Great Tribulation,"As sort of a preamble, consider some synonyms for 'tribulation' (some key synonyms noted with an asterisk... although they're all good):​

• adversity
• grief *
• suffering *
• trial *
• heartache
• burden *
• trouble *
• misery
• oppression *
• misfortune
• ordeal
• woe *
• persecution *
• difficulty
• affliction *
• distress *
• sorrow *

We all are experiencing all these things to some degree... currently. And as long as there is sin and death in this world, there will be tribulation. Regarding a "Great Tribulation," I do see a great ramping up of the current tribulation near the end, such as will have never been seen up to that time. And it will be cut short for the sake of God's elect. No one living will be removed from it (whether you're insinuating that or not), but the Lord will be with us, His Church, through it, just as He promised He would be.​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Well, I'm not sure of your thoughts regarding the "Great Tribulation," so I'll not foist anything on you, but merely give you mine. :)

1. I disagree with your understanding of Christ's Church, or at least what I think is your understanding of it. I say it consists of all those who are called by the Lord and thus in Christ.​

​

2. Regarding a "Great Tribulation,"As sort of a preamble, consider some synonyms for 'tribulation' (some key synonyms noted with an asterisk... although they're all good):​

• adversity
• grief *
• suffering *
• trial *
• heartache
• burden *
• trouble *
• misery
• oppression *
• misfortune
• ordeal
• woe *
• persecution *
• difficulty
• affliction *
• distress *
• sorrow *

We all are experiencing all these things to some degree... currently. And as long as there is sin and death in this world, there will be tribulation. Regarding a "Great Tribulation," I do see a great ramping up of the current tribulation near the end, such as will have never been seen up to that time. And it will be cut short for the sake of God's elect. No one living will be removed from it (whether you're insinuating that or not), but the Lord will be with us, His Church, through it, just as He promised He would be.​

Grace and peace to you.

The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which contains the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus returns again at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the cloud. Then the wrath of God begins. Jesus returns for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the end part of wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok. The Church, meaning mostly Gentiles at this time, will not go through the tribulation of those days, the Great Tribulation

The entire church, Jews and gentiles will go through the tribulation because that is the entire purpose of it. Many scriptures attest to this fact.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath which targets Christians:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[The Light]

The entire church, Jews and gentiles will go through the tribulation because that is the entire purpose of it. Many scriptures attest to this fact.

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath which targets Christians:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There will be Gentile Christians that are not found worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, as they are not watching and ready for the Coming of the Lord. They will find the door closed and will go through the tribulation.

Many Christians boast against the natural branches, and don't realize that the Messiah is coming for the Church before the seals are opened.

As for the seed of the woman those are not Gentiles, they are of the 12 tribes as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

 

[ewq1938]

They will find the door closed and will go through the tribulation.

There is no door for the trib. You either "escape" through apostasia/apostasy which means you will suffer the wrath of God, or you spiritually escape the temptations of the trib and you are killed, or survive and are those who are raptured after the trib.

Many Christians boast against the natural branches, and don't realize that the Messiah is coming for the Church before the seals are opened.

Christ is not coming before the seals, or during the seals and it's been almost 2000 years since the seals were opened and he hasn't yet returned.

 

[The Light]

There is no door for the trib.

Rev 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

You either "escape" through apostasia/apostasy which means you will suffer the wrath of God, or you spiritually escape the temptations of the trib and you are killed, or survive and are those who are raptured after the trib.

As the Word declares, there are those that will escape all these things that come to pass. The things Jesus talks about are the 1st four seals which are the "beginning of sorrows" and the Great Tribulation. Since you do not understand that the seals are the 70th week of Daniel and are not opened, you cannot possibly understand.

Christ is not coming before the seals,

Too many scriptures say He is coming before the seals are opened.

or during the seals and it's been almost 2000 years since the seals were opened and he hasn't yet returned.

The seals have not been opened. They will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Not a door related to the trib.

As the Word declares, there are those that will escape all these things that come to pass.

Not a physical escape though. The church is going to be persecuted and killed with some survivors. Everything written about the trib speaks of Christians being killed. No one leaves the Earth to avoid the trib.

Too many scriptures say He is coming before the seals are opened.

Zero say that. HE arrives after ascending and is described as a slain Lamb. That is because he had recently died, resurrected and now has arrived in heaven where not long before that no one could find him. He opens the seals when he ascended into heaven back in the 1st century. The seals are just like what was taught in the OD, info about future events.

The seals have not been opened. They will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

No, they have been opened. We are in one of the trumps now.

 

[quietthinker]

The 144,000 before God at the end.​

or is it the beginning?

 

[rwb]

The 144,000 before God at the end.​

or is it the beginning?

I believe the Bible shows us the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were the beginning (firstfruits) of saints ascending spiritually alive to heaven AFTER the resurrection of Christ. They lived and died before the Spirit was sent to be IN them. After Christ defeated death by His cross and resurrection, these saints who had physically died were made spiritually alive by the Spirit sent to them, therefore with life they ascended a spiritual body of believers to heaven with Christ when He rescued them from the grave. This, I believe is the reason for the 144,000, a symbolic number, representing a remnant of Old, had to be sealed by the Spirit before He was sent out unto all the nations of the world. When John writes of them again, they are in heaven "having their Father's name written in their foreheads" (Rev 14:1).

Spiritually speaking they are the firstfruits or the first of the faithful saints to be made spiritually alive after physical death to enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Because Christ gave us assurance that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Correct

Matthew ch24 gives us CLEAR instruction.

AFTER the Tribulation, the LORD Returns/Second Coming to gather His Elect BEFORE He pours out His Wrath.

You do agree with the words of Christ - YES???

Rev 14 is a gathering in that timetable you point to.
But the rapture verses are all peacetime normal ,life, and commerce.
So that "after trib" rapture theory is not at all plausible.
Also the timeframe if Jesus uses noah and Lot which is normal life and commerce.
The trib kicks off in massive loss of life.
The 4horsemen bring their wrath to humanity at the start of the trib.
Again, omission is your friend

 

[rebuilder 454]

I believe the Bible shows us the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel were the beginning (firstfruits) of saints ascending spiritually alive to heaven AFTER the resurrection of Christ. They lived and died before the Spirit was sent to be IN them. After Christ defeated death by His cross and resurrection, these saints who had physically died were made spiritually alive by the Spirit sent to them, therefore with life they ascended a spiritual body of believers to heaven with Christ when He rescued them from the grave. This, I believe is the reason for the 144,000, a symbolic number, representing a remnant of Old, had to be sealed by the Spirit before He was sent out unto all the nations of the world. When John writes of them again, they are in heaven "having their Father's name written in their foreheads" (Rev 14:1).

Spiritually speaking they are the firstfruits or the first of the faithful saints to be made spiritually alive after physical death to enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. Because Christ gave us assurance that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die.

Nope.
They are ethnic Jews sealed against the flying scorpions. Resurrected spirits are not able to be stung.
.
The patriarchs were not virgins either.
Look at all the components you need to change for your modifications of the facts surrounding the 144k.
Whew.
So glad i am not in that doctrinal trap you have made up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is extremely hard to believe the made up bunch of mess that some members have come up with in their own imagination

1) 144,000 does not mean 144,000????
2) Jews are not ethnic Jews nor are the 144,000 actual Jews ?????...SMH
3) YALL probably spiritualize "virgins" , because none of the made up mess I've seen has addressed that they are virgins.
how in the world can believers come out of tribes???????
it's not at all plausible
it's not even possible that that number could be so exact and people just skip over it and pretend that it has no meaning whatsoever.

then we have the fact that they're first fruits and none of you ever addressed first fruits coming before main Harvest. Nor can you come up with something plausable from your minds.

Lets get real here.
the grand finale is that main Harvest is after the first fruits.
The 144k. ETHNIC JEWS are in heaven (either taken , or martyred) in the middle of the tribulation.(rev 14)
Then immediately after first fruit Jews (you know as the bible VIVIDLY depicts), the main harvest of JEWS by Jesus with a sickle sitting on a cloud and none of you have any made up explanation for that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

@The Light says: "The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened."

There is not one scripture that you can bring forth that makes this declaration.

Not only that, but it is 'antichrist' for it speaks against Christ words and seeks to 'replace' Christs words with religious hype that pleases the flesh and is used to attract follower$.

Rapture is before the wrath and judgement of the 4 horsemen heaven releases.
Ahem, at the start of the trib as Jesus vividly depicts in noah and lot.
In your theory, you have the church raptured post trib with no commerce and no normal life. That would not be biblical.
You can never modify verses or make omissions sufficient to patch those huge holes in your doctrine

You will redirect around the holes every time.

 

[David in NJ]

Rev 14 is a gathering in that timetable you point to.
But the rapture verses are all peacetime normal ,life, and commerce.
So that "after trib" rapture theory is not at all plausible.
Also the timeframe if Jesus uses noah and Lot which is normal life and commerce.
The trib kicks off in massive loss of life.
The 4horsemen bring their wrath to humanity at the start of the trib.
Again, omission is your friend

Good Morning my Brother in Christ,

Revelation is a conglomerate of 'revealings' of the Second Coming of Christ.

It is not a straight-line chronology as in a single story but it is chronological in EACH of it's stories/revealings of the Second Coming.

This is why in chapter 14 it states this:
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[David in NJ]

Rapture is before the wrath and judgement of the 4 horsemen heaven releases.
Ahem, at the start of the trib as Jesus vividly depicts in noah and lot.
In your theory, you have the church raptured post trib with no commerce and no normal life. That would not be biblical.
You can never modify verses or make omissions sufficient to patch those huge holes in your doctrine

You will redirect around the holes every time.

The 4 Horseman are not the wrath of the Lamb/God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where does Paul write that blindness in part that happened to Israel shall be lifted when the fulness of Gentiles come in? Paul is telling us that Israel shall be saved when the fullness of Gentiles come in to the same good olive tree of faith with Jews of faith.

The context shows us that Israel that shall be saved include Jews of faith as well as Gentiles of faith, but you imagine Paul is too stupid to understand "all Israel that shall be saved" cannot be speaking of ethnic Israel, but is speaking of the "Israel of God." All Israel that shall be saved through the Deliverer, who turns away ungodliness from JACOB!

Romans 11:25-28 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

ALL of romans 11 identifies TWO groups.
Jews and gentiles.
TWO groups.
Both GROUPS need Christ.
You rock along in partial truth.
It is plain as day that in christ there is ONE GROUP.
This world has Two INSEPARABLE groups as we are taught in romans.

Reconcile that FACT , then proceed from there.

Hint; God has a separate covenant with one of those groups.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning my Brother in Christ,

Revelation is a conglomerate of 'revealings' of the Second Coming of Christ.

It is not a straight-line chronology as in a single story but it is chronological in EACH of it's stories/revealings of the Second Coming.

This is why in chapter 14 it states this:
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

you come up with concepts that you try to void out other verses.
Yes, we can all see that verse.
We can all see the Jews and gentiles, plus the carnal Christians that miss the rapture are on earth during the trib, wrath , or whatever you want to call the ushering in of the 4 horsemen released by heaven in their wrath.
Nobody disputes it.