The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Where does Noah, or Lot fit ANYTHING but a prejudgement gathering????

 

[rwb]

A better fit and match is the Millennium, not the NHNE. Heaven isn't destroyed or re-created at that timeframe and wasn't at the flood. It was an Earthly destruction only.

Yes, I agree! This time referenced in Scripture a thousand years that began with Christ coming to earth a man, and will end when this time given this earth shall be no longer. Then the age of new heaven and new earth shall begin for only immortality and incorruption. All things shall be made new, and all that now is shall be utterly consumed by the fire of God's wrath.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The flood of water in the days of Noah, I think we agree, was literally water that covered the surface of the earth. The flood I'm asking about is the flood that comes after the woman in Rev 12, from the mouth of the dragon. What is you understanding of the flood coming at the woman (Church) from Satan, and when do you believe it began or shall begin?

The ONLY TRACTION of that is to assume the church goes through the trib.
It is vivid and obvious the woman is the Jews or Israel.
It is explained in romans that we came out of Israel.
...also clear as day that Jesus came out of the Jews.
We did not birth Jesus, He birthed us.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If "great tribulation" has not already been the fate for Christ's body; the Church/Christians, how do you explain "great tribulation" that has been, is, and shall always be the lot in life for people of faith? Has there ever been any other entity upon the earth to have suffered more than the people of Christ, and yet continue to grow and even thrive? There has never been, nor shall there ever be any other entity that will endure the greatest evil ever to have existed! Only the Church/Christians who not even physical death can prevent from being in the spiritual Kingdom of God, because the life we receive through Him is already ETERNAL!

Nope.
There has never been the events of the GT or Trib or whatever modern students the call the 7 yr period.

 

[rwb]

The ONLY TRACTION of that is to assume the church goes through the trib.
It is vivid and obvious the woman is the Jews or Israel.
It is explained in romans that we came out of Israel.
...also clear as day that Jesus came out of the Jews.
We did not birth Jesus, He birthed us.

Anyone reading Scripture understands well the Church indeed does suffer through great tribulation and affliction in this world. There has never been a time when the Church has not suffered spiritual and physical "great tribulation" in this world.

The Old Covenant nation, the chosen people of God gave birth to the Christ, the man child. That's why Scripture says He was born a Jew, from the lineage of Judah.

Christ does not give us birth but does indeed provide a means for us to be born again of His Spirit. That's why He says, "Ye must be born again"!

 

[rwb]

Nope.
There has never been the events of the GT or Trib or whatever modern students the call the 7 yr period.

Tell that to the MANY martyrs for their faith! I don't believe you even know what "great tribulation" is???

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is a continuation of my previous unfinished reply.

Why do you say the physically dead are the firstfruits, when Paul has twice shown Christ is the firstfruits of the physically dead? The dead are not raptured when Christ comes again. They are physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Those still physically alive at Christ's coming are the ones who will be "caught up" (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. In that moment and twinkling of an eye the living shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Just as the physically dead were resurrected and changed. Then all the saints shall be together with Christ in the air.

Carefully consider the following passages from Scripture. When Christ comes again in an hour coming the DEAD, ALL who are in the graves shall come forth either to resurrection life, or damnation. This is the last day of this age when Christ has promised all who belong to Him shall be raised up. The DEAD in Christ resurrected immortal & incorruptible, those in Christ who are still alive when He comes again, are caught up (raptured) with those who have been resurrected from the graves to immortal life. The order on the last day, in an hour that is coming is first the resurrection to immortality for the DEAD in Christ, and then with them the LIVING in Christ are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

None of the above passages depicting Christ's coming again tell us the firstfruits unto God and the Lord are being caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. On the last day, when the last trumpet sounds, in an hour that is coming, the firstfruits of the Lord will be physically resurrected/caught up. Those who are the firstfruits of the Lord will be with the Lord when He returns the second time for His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What you call the rapture which shall not be before the last trump sounds on the last day in an hour coming, and time given this earth shall be no longer, is not the rapture at all, but is a spiritual ascension to heaven a spiritual body of believers. The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel are the firstfruits of the Lord. Firstfruits to ascend spiritually alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers as living souls, without a physical body. The Lord has already taken His firstfruits to heaven, a spiritual body of believers. Who are as the angels of God in heaven, celestial beings. He did this through His Spirit when we went into the lower parts of the earth (the grave) and set the captives free, taking them with Him to heaven spiritually alive living souls.

We are told to watch and be ready for His coming again for the final harvest physically that shall be when time given this earth shall be no longer.

The seals of the book that only the Lamb slain was found worthy to open have been opened since the cross and resurrection. When Christ opened the sixth seal we're reminded that everything written shall come to pass during this time given the earth to proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth. The sixth seal is a depiction of how this age of grace shall be and shall end when Christ returns the second time with great wrath.

The next vision John is given is of the 144,000 spiritual firstfruits (Rev 14) being sealed by the Spirit of Christ. They were symbolically under the altar, (Rev 6) having died believing the Messiah would come to redeem them. Now they have been sealed since Christ defeated death, and they ascended to heaven a living spiritual body of believers. When John writes of the seventh seal being opened, there is silence in heaven for a brief time (half an hour). Then John is shown seven angels with seven trumpets that have been sounding throughout the earth in this age of time. Only when the seventh trumpet begins to sound shall all that is written be finished and the Kingdom of God complete. And time shall be no longer, because the age of eternal life on the new earth shall begin.

Wow
because you misplace the fact the 144k are ethnic Jews, you got the entire dynamic all messed up.
You start ok by saying we can not be first fruits, then hit a dilemma of the 144k BELIEVERS .
So your remedy is to make them FIRST FRUITS, of "somethingorother".

Nope.
Jesus is the first fruits of ALL BEIVERS (ahem, MAIN HARVEST) , ALONG WITH THE PATRIARCHS.
Just amazing that the FACT that the first fruit JEWS PRECEDE MAIN HARVEST Jews, vividy depicted in rev 14
That is what is going on .so simple and plain and vivid.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Anyone reading Scripture understands well the Church indeed does suffer through great tribulation and affliction in this world. There has never been a time when the Church has not suffered spiritual and physical "great tribulation" in this world.

The Old Covenant nation, the chosen people of God gave birth to the Christ, the man child. That's why Scripture says He was born a Jew, from the lineage of Judah.

Christ does not give us birth but does indeed provide a means for us to be born again of His Spirit. That's why He says, "Ye must be born again"!

the only place we see believers in the (trib,or great trib or whatever you modern students call the 7 yr trib), is the Jews, and those left behind that are martyred right away by the ac.
But we see the JEWS ushered away to safety...NOT THE CHURCH.
You have to assume in your model that it is NOT TRUE, that EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD TAKE THE MARK.
That dynamic also has to be omitted or modified.

 

[rebuilder 454]

.. and all other flesh perished in the flood except those who were saved in the ark through their faith in the Word of God.

Where are all these mortals you think you're going to be ruling over in the millennium?

The flood - the flood that destroyed all flesh except those who were lifted up out of the world with the ark they were in - is the type of the 7th bowl of wrath and 7th trumpet - the wrath of God which occurs after the tribulation of the saints and after their resurrection/rapture which comes after the tribulation of the saints.

Really?
Show me Noahs 4 horsemen, or the mark of the AC, or the AC himself, or the flying scorpions, or worldwide mark of the beast, or the planet half destroyed BEFORE NOAH entered the ark.
Your model is caput.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your red herring. No Jew nor Gentile, male nor female etc in Christ. You never addressed the fact that Paul said not all ethnic Israel are Israel. But you say "No, all ethnic Israel is Israel". Put Paul's statement regarding the fact that not all ethnic Israel is Israel together with what he said about Jews and Gentiles, male and female in Christ and you have yet another confirmation that only those in Christ are Israel.

Your red herring led you into exposing your fallacy yet again.

....and yet Paul called himself a Jew.
Called the unredeemed Jew his brethren
Said he was a Pharisee... (ahem, a Jew)

Then you go on to correctly say we are all one in Christ.

..as if that voids what Paul declared?????
HUH????
Oh wait...
I get it!!!
We need that "no more Jews" dynamic for doctrine to "harmonize"!!!
No offence, but that is pitiful.

 

[rwb]

Wow
because you misplace the fact the 144k are ethnic Jews, you got the entire dynamic all messed up.
You start ok by saying we can not be first fruits, then hit a dilemma of the 144k BELIEVERS .
So your remedy is to make them FIRST FRUITS, of "somethingorother".

Nope.
Jesus is the first fruits of ALL BEIVERS (ahem, MAIN HARVEST) , ALONG WITH THE PATRIARCHS.
Just amazing that the FACT that the first fruit JEWS PRECEDE MAIN HARVEST Jews, vividy depicted in rev 14
That is what is going on .so simple and plain and vivid.

THINK! If the 144,000 are not faithful Jews who died believing Messiah would come to redeem them, they would NOT be sealed! Only the faithful are sealed by the Spirit, and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity, but is according to faith.

Jesus is the firstfruits! His spirit is first raised up to return to the Father, before His body too is the first to be physically resurrected from the dead.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Luke 24:46 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Because Christ is the firstfruits to be spiritually raised to heaven, these 144,000 Old Covenant faithful saints are the firstfruits of a spiritual harvest through Christ's Spirit when they ascended to heaven a spiritual body of believers after being sealed by the Spirit. Then when the last trumpet sounds their bodies too shall be resurrected first from the graves, just as Scripture shows us. Followed by all who are alive being caught up with the Lord in the air TOGETHER. This shall be the only physical harvest of ALL the saints. There will not be another physical harvest some one thousand years after!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

rebuilder 454 said:
"There is neither male nor female..."
Cue sarcasm
Therefore only eunuchs and confused women populate the church because there are no more men and women, but gender neutral humanoids.
There... we now have the complete one dimensional error of taking replacement theology pillars to there logical conclusion.
Hint:
We still see ethnic Jews in the church as well as men and women.
Lets get real please.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[rwb]

the only place we see believers in the (trib,or great trib or whatever you modern students call the 7 yr trib), is the Jews, and those left behind that are martyred right away by the ac.
But we see the JEWS ushered away to safety...NOT THE CHURCH.
You have to assume in your model that it is NOT TRUE, that EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD TAKE THE MARK.
That dynamic also has to be omitted or modified.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[rebuilder 454]

THINK! If the 144,000 are not faithful Jews who died believing Messiah would come to redeem them, they would NOT be sealed! Only the faithful are sealed by the Spirit, and it has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity, but is according to faith.

Jesus is the firstfruits! His spirit is first raised up to return to the Father, before His body too is the first to be physically resurrected from the dead.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Luke 24:46 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Because Christ is the firstfruits to be spiritually raised to heaven, these 144,000 Old Covenant faithful saints are the firstfruits of a spiritual harvest through Christ's Spirit when they ascended to heaven a spiritual body of believers after being sealed by the Spirit. Then when the last trumpet sounds their bodies too shall be resurrected first from the graves, just as Scripture shows us. Followed by all who are alive being caught up with the Lord in the air TOGETHER. This shall be the only physical harvest of ALL the saints. There will not be another physical harvest some one thousand years after!!!

Or
We can see they are of tribes and Jewish messianic BELIEVERS ...kinda like it plainly says.
I think your starting place is wrong.
You are trying to fit doctrine into the bible.

They are first fruit Jews. So plain and so vivid.

cue whisper
(((((But i realize there are no Jews on the planet anymore))))

 

[rebuilder 454]

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You never saw that?
That ALL ON THE PLANET take the mark?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

You never saw that?
That ALL ON THE PLANET take the mark?????

I got to tell you guys..
That alone destroys all but pretrib rapture

 

[rebuilder 454]

Will the air that will be around us when we meet the Lord in the air be the same air that was around the ark after 40 days and 40 nights when it was lifted up off the ground by the water?

yep
bingo!!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'm confused by comments like this? Why do you speak as though Noah and family in the ark were "lifted up out of the world"? The ark wasn't lifted up out of the world, because the ark kept them safe from the water that covered the earth. If the water was on the earth, the ark and all who were in it was still on the earth, floating on the water that covered the earth! What am I missing? What are you and others here trying to prove by saying Noah and those in the ark were lifted/taken out of the world? It simply makes zero sense to me!

Why do you speak as though Noah and family in the ark were "lifted up out of the world"? The ark wasn't lifted up out of the world, because the ark kept them safe from the water that covered the earth. If the water was on the earth, the ark and all who were in it was still on the earth, floating on the water that covered the earth!

Ahem
Gen 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.



Thank you Jesus for your word

 

[rebuilder 454]

noah over a mile into the sky DURING THE FLOOD.
Then RETURNS back to earth post flood.
Got to love it, enjoy it, and the favor of celebrating Gods word.
" let my word be confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses.

Tell it like it is as a reporter.
No additives
No dilutants
No omissions

 

[rebuilder 454]

.. and all other flesh perished in the flood except those who were saved in the ark through their faith in the Word of God.

Where are all these mortals you think you're going to be ruling over in the millennium?

The flood - the flood that destroyed all flesh except those who were lifted up out of the world with the ark they were in - is the type of the 7th bowl of wrath and 7th trumpet - the wrath of God which occurs after the tribulation of the saints and after their resurrection/rapture which comes after the tribulation of the saints.

Normal life....
Then the judgement.
So true
So simple.
Your model is flawed