The 144,000 before God at the end.
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Josephus' history corroborates and confirms Jesus' predictions.
Nothing desperate about that.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
After I actually gave you a complete picture of Jesus talking about the tribulation and persecution of His disciples in all three synoptic gospels whenever He uses the words tribulation and persecution in the Olivet Discourse, and how what was to come upon Jerusalem is called wrath, but not tribulation or persecution, it's desperatation that causes you to talk about what Josephus said about deceivers etc in Judea and Jerusalem leading up to 70 A.D.Josephus' history corroborates and confirms Jesus' predictions.
Nothing desperate about that.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I never denied it. That was your imagination at work. I posted that you hold Josephus as having more authority than God's Word. You uphold Josephus over Scripture. Now all you have to do is prove that what Josephus wrote fulfilled all your interpretations of Scripture. Since Josephus is your final authority on fulfilled Scripture.That's what I've done, and that's the point.
Glad that you admit it.
Do you think that the Scriptural confirmation of deceivers, in Acts 8 (Simon) and Acts 13 (Barjesus), is also desperation?
That was your imagination at work. You are your final authority on fulfilled Scripture.
The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) cites Josephus: "Josephus, a Jewish historian wrote of the crucifixion of Jesus."
Therefore, you believe that the BGEA holds Josephus as having more authority than God's Word.
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Timtofly
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Except the baptism of fire does not destroy human flesh. It destroys the human works on the earth. You have the flesh consumed as an improper interpretation. Those symbolized as goats are physically cast alive into the LOF. It never states their flesh is consumed. The point of the Second Coming is not the end.
There is still the final harvest that Jesus and the angels are physically on earth and part of. The explanation Jesus gave is clear and not a parable. You can interpret the parable how ever you like, but when Jesus explained the parable, why would you state something different than Jesus explained?
"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"
Why do so many deny that Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders, the time of Jacob's trouble, and the final harvest? And the end of the world in verse 49 is not the end of the earth nor time, but the end of an age. Amil deny the next age that is to come called the Millennium Kingdom. An age is a unit of time. But time does not end nor creation. So earth is not removed as written in Revelation 20:11
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
This end is not the alleged end as in Matthew 13. Matthew 13 is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. 8 billion people are not just instantly consumed by fire physically and then their souls sent to heaven or sheol. That is not even what 2 Peter 3 tells us. When Jesus is baptizing the earth in fire it is destroying the works that make the flesh comfortable. That is why it is GT. People will literally have nothing. Those post trib people think the church is to endure this time on earth with nothing, even while Jesus and the angels are bringing in the final harvest of billions of souls. At the 6th Seal Jesus immediately starts to restore the earth in and around Jerusalem. At the same time, even Satan and those world leaders are attempting to restore normality, and that is the healing of the wounded head of the dragon. The earth will Marvel, because Satan will be offering a temporary restoration at the same time as Jesus and the angels are at work. That is not fictional interpretation of wild imagination. That is what Matthew 13 and Revelation 13 declare.
"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."
That is a political restoration, and we have been led to believe that government involvement in times of GT can restore things back to normal.
"but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world."
So Satan is also at work gathering those who follow him and his miraculous government in response to this baptism of fire according to 2 Peter 3.
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,"
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us."
Of course Satan and human government is going to step in and all those rich people in control are going to want that control enforced, and will follow Satan's will to see that they have an answer in response to billions who just had everything taken away by God at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. That is the baptism of fire.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So airplanes leave the earth? If you say airplanes leave the earth, then so did the ark. Water is still the same h2o found in the air. In fact, clouds are full of h2o, that is why when they reach a certain dew point they produce rain. That h2o has to return to the earth. Noah did not build an air ship that used air, but a ship that would be lifted up by water that had never fallen out of the sky prior to that point. Rain was as foreign to them as clouds would be. So to them nothing could rise above the mountains, not even clouds.
So if you claim no one leaves the earth. You have way more supernatural ability to explain why billions of souls are hovering like satellites still on earth like airplanes floating in the sky. Where were those souls you claim God brings with Him, if God came from heaven? Certainly they had left the earth, in the past, and now return at the Second Coming.
So why would they all now, not go back to Paradise? No verse claims Paradise was destroyed, and now these souls are stuck in limbo floating on the earth in the air.
ewq1938
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Context looks like it is shortly before the trib starts:
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The only seed mentioned from her are Christians so she gave birth to them, likely through the Israelite disciples who spread the gospel and spawned believers that way.
ewq1938
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A better fit and match is the Millennium, not the NHNE. Heaven isn't destroyed or re-created at that timeframe and wasn't at the flood. It was an Earthly destruction only.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You need Josephus for your interpretation. The BGEA does not need Josephus to verify what happened on the Cross.That was your imagination at work. You are your final authority on fulfilled Scripture.
The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association (BGEA) cites Josephus: "Josephus, a Jewish historian wrote of the crucifixion of Jesus."
Therefore, you believe that the BGEA holds Josephus as having more authority than God's Word.
The BGEA does not need him. But it still cites him.
Because, unlike you, it does not believe that it is itself the final authority on fulfilled Scripture.
Only you believe that about yourself.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
OK, possibly. But I read everything except the dragon making war with the rest of the woman's seed as something that was already past-tense by the time it was written (the war against the rest of the seed being ongoing), because I read the dragon as having been cast to the earth after the ascension of Christ:
And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred, but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred, but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.
When [hóte] the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water like a flood after the woman, so that he might cause her to be carried away by the river. And the earth helped the woman. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
That word hóte always refers to something that is taking place or took place at the same time as the other thing being mentioned.
That word hóte always refers to something that is taking place or took place at the same time as the other thing being mentioned.
Agreed.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
But the only Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse that anyone can compare to the destruction of 70 A.D. is His prophecy about not one stone atop another. The rest of the Signs He gave while upon the Mount of Olives most definitely do NOT involve 70 A.D., but instead the very end of this world leading up to His future return.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
.. and He never said anything about not one stone upon another on the Mount of Olives, from which the Olivet Discourse derives the name. He said it while in the temple, and just after coming out the temple.
"Every day Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, but at night he went and stayed on the Mount of Olives." (Luke 21:37).
"Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.
And he said to them, "
Do you see all these things?
I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!" (Matthew 23:37-24:2).
After coming out of the temple Jesus then walked down the mountain, and crossed through the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives (which is opposite the Temple Mount), walked to the top, and sat down after reaching the top.
Once Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples asked Jesus three questions:
1. "When shall these things be?" And [Greek: kai]
2. "What shall be the sign that these things are about to take place"?
3. "What shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the Age?"
THE FIRST SUBJECT JESUS SPOKE ABOUT AFTER HE ARRIVED ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
The disciples asked Him about the temple in Jerusalem, regarding which He had said that not one stone would be left upon another that would not be thrown down - but when He began to reply - instead of answering their question about that temple, Jesus opens His answer by telling them about the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience.
He was answering their question regarding this:
"What shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the Age?"
He also answered their question regarding the Jerusalem temple:
"What shall be the sign that these things are about to take place"?
20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.
21 And let those in Judea flee to the mountains. And those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land and wrath on this people.
24 And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled.
What Jesus said about "not one stone upon another" is not something He said on the Mount of Olives, from which the Olivet Discourse derives the name. What He said about tribulation and persecution on the Mount of Olives, He was applying to believers - the living stones of the New Testament Temple - and what He said about the wrath that was to come, He was applying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judea.
What was he applying to the end of the Age and His return?
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The flood of water in the days of Noah, I think we agree, was literally water that covered the surface of the earth. The flood I'm asking about is the flood that comes after the woman in Rev 12, from the mouth of the dragon. What is you understanding of the flood coming at the woman (Church) from Satan, and when do you believe it began or shall begin?
The fire of God's wrath is not baptism of fire. It's called destruction by fire, and you do err greatly if you think God's wrath by fire shall not destroy whosoever and whatsoever is left alive on earth at that time.
Baptism of fire that does not destroy human beings, is baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the only thing that shall prevent man from being consumed by the fire of God's wrath that shall come when the Lord comes again.
The second coming of Christ that shall be when the last trumpet sounds is the end of time given this earth to preach the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The PREFLOOD analogy you reject is the analogy Jesus used. I am only saying what the bible says.
I am REPEATING exactly what the bible says and AGREE with Jesus that the rapture or "preflood noah and world" setting is exactly what it says.
Normal life,then judgement.
Redemptive history written in the Words of God proves that which spews out of the mouth of Satan began after the baptism of Christ, when the Spirit of God descended upon Him. Immediately after that, Satan began to spew from his mouth lies trying to tempt Christ to worship him. The war against the seed (Christians) of the woman, first the remnant of Old, and from the first century AD the universal Church on earth, has always been. This is what resulted from the birth of Christ. And that is what Rev 12 is showing us.
Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 4:1 (KJV) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
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