Following the UnCut Word Of God!

[bro.tan]

We're not under Law, but by being under Grace (Ro 6:14), the "righteous requirement" of the Law is fulfilled in us by God (Ro 8:4), and so we fulfill "the entire law" (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27, 3:31, 13:8-10).

The Law isn't even God's exact will, because it contains concessions for wicked/hard hearted (Heb 3 "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin") men, such as permission to take vows, whereas Christ condemns the taking of vows as "of the evil one" (Mt 5), and for "any cause" (even if a woman burns her husband's food) divorce, which Christ now condemns as adultery (Mt 19).

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[GracePeace]

Those are some good verses if they were pertaining to another point. What I spoke of is the law, and for those who break the the law is sin. In (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

So Romans 14 Chapter is talking about being weak or strong in the faith, we all have to keep the Commandments of God. Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

All sin is "also" transgression of the Law, but not all breaking the Law is sin (eg, priests break the Sabbath while serving in the Temple, etc).
The definition of sin is "indulgence in the flesh" Col 2:23--if you truly are indulging in the flesh, the Law can "also" testify about what you've done.

 

[bro.tan]

The Torah is not God's exact will, since it contains concessions for hard-hearted (ie, wicked: "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" Heb 3) men:

i. Christ condemns "vows", permitted in Torah, as "of the evil one" (Mt 5).
ii. Christ condemns "any cause" divorce, permitted in Torah, as "adultery" (Mt 19).

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today.

 

[GracePeace]

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

Gentile believers, who do not know the Law, but who walk after the Spirit, are qualified as "doers of the Law" who will be "justified" for "doing good" (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27), so, no, we don't need Torah--it never worked, and it doesn't work today. Grace works.

 

[GracePeace]

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today.

Yeah, those who walk after the Spirit keep the Law, according to Paul--"against such things there is no Law"--so, no, we don't need Torah.

 

[GracePeace]

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today.

I just noticed you didn't actually answer the objection: the Torah does NOT contain God's exact will, as Christ denounces its concessions. This reminds me of how Paul says "the righteous requirement"--"it has some righteous statutes, but it also contains concessions" could be one way of reading that.

 

[GracePeace]

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

I just noticed that this also was not an answer to the objection: the objection was that we do not serve by the Torah, not that we do not fulfill its righteous requirements. In fact, those who walk after the Spirit are said to fulfill "the whole Law" (Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:14).

 

[GracePeace]

Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today.

I agree that "do not covet" is a holy, just, and good commandment (that was the commandment that was in view, there), but I also agree with Jesus that the Torah also contains many concessions that are not God's Holy will.

 

[St. SteVen]

ii. Christ condemns "any cause" divorce, permitted in Torah, as "adultery" (Mt 19).

I posted this on another topic. Thought you might find it interesting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm glad you brought up Matthew chapter 19.
It contains a perfect example of what I am saying about
how we imprint our western values on the Bible.

What does the church say is the ONLY grounds for divorce? Adultery, right?
Compare Matthew 19:9 in both the NIV with the KJV below. Notice anything different? (fornication)

Jesus said "except it be for fornication, not adultery. (as the church claims)
The NIV gets this wrong, the KJV gets this right. Check the NT Greek.

See Deuteronomy 22:13-18 below to see what the law says about this.
This is what Jesus was referring to.

All this to say that our western Christian social views do not always coincide with the Bible.
Notice that the bride is treated like bad merchandise in Deuteronomy 22:13-18. Property of her parents.
But we happily run over to Leviticus 20:13 and grab
the word "abomination" when it suits our purposes.

Matthew 19:9 NIV
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,
and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matthew 19:9 KJV
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Deuteronomy 22:13-18 NIV
If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her
14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying,
“I married this woman, but when I approached her,
I did not find proof of her virginity,”
15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring
to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin.
16 Her father will say to the elders,
“I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her.
17 Now he has slandered her and said,
‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’
But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.”
Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town,
18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him.

/

 

[GracePeace]

I posted this on another topic. Thought you might find it interesting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm glad you brought up Matthew chapter 19.
It contains a perfect example of what I am saying about
how we imprint our western values on the Bible.

What does the church say is the ONLY grounds for divorce? Adultery, right?
Compare Matthew 19:9 in both the NIV with the KJV below. Notice anything different? (fornication)

Jesus said "except it be for fornication, not adultery. (as the church claims)
The NIV gets this wrong, the KJV gets this right. Check the NT Greek.

See Deuteronomy 22:13-18 below to see what the law says about this.
This is what Jesus was referring to.

All this to say that our western Christian social views do not always coincide with the Bible.
Notice that the bride is treated like bad merchandise in Deuteronomy 22:13-18. Property of her parents.
But we happily run over to Leviticus 20:13 and grab
the word "abomination" when it suits our purposes.

Matthew 19:9 NIV
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,
and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matthew 19:9 KJV
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Deuteronomy 22:13-18 NIV
If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her
14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying,
“I married this woman, but when I approached her,
I did not find proof of her virginity,”
15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring
to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin.
16 Her father will say to the elders,
“I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her.
17 Now he has slandered her and said,
‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’
But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.”
Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town,
18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him.

/

The two are unrelated--one is a concession for hard hearted men. They eventually construed it as a permit to divorce even for burning her husband's food. That was the issue being addressed there. "For any cause".

 

[bro.tan]

I just noticed that this also was not an answer to the objection: the objection was that we do not serve by the Torah, not that we do not fulfill its righteous requirements. In fact, those who walk after the Spirit are said to fulfill "the whole Law" (Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:14).

When you walk in the spirit, means that you are walking in the law. Remember Paul say in Romans 8: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


So what is the righteousness of the law? Let go back to what Paul said in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[bro.tan]

I just noticed you didn't actually answer the objection: the Torah does NOT contain God's exact will, as Christ denounces its concessions. This reminds me of how Paul says "the righteous requirement"--"it has some righteous statutes, but it also contains concessions" could be one way of reading that.

I need you to give a example of what you saying, because when I read in (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children.

 

[GracePeace]

When you walk in the spirit, means that you are walking in the law. Remember Paul say in Romans 8: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


So what is the righteousness of the law? Let go back to what Paul said in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Nope:
1. The Gentile believers didn't know the Law but were "doers of the Law", destroying your entire thesis
2. The Law contains concessions which are not reflective of Gods will.

 

[GracePeace]

I need you to give a example of what you saying,

Already did--when I said "I noticed you didn't respond", I was saying that because your reply didn't address the examples of how the Law contains concessions.

 

[bro.tan]

Yeah, those who walk after the Spirit keep the Law, according to Paul--"against such things there is no Law"--so, no, we don't need Torah.

Yes we do need the torah, it's written in Revelation 14: 12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" These Saints are from Genesis to Revelation and they followed the Commandments of God, statues and judgments.
Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes we do need the torah, it's written in Revelation 14: 12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" These Saints are from Genesis to Revelation and they followed the Commandments of God, statues and judgments.
Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other.

Already answered this: the Gentile believers were "doers of the Law" who would be "justified" and "repaid eternal life" even though they "do not have the Law".

 

[bro.tan]

Already did--when I said "I noticed you didn't respond", I was saying that because your reply didn't address the examples of how the Law contains concessions.

Because Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin! As long there is sin in the world, you going to have the law.

 

[GracePeace]

Because Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin! As long there is sin in the world, you going to have the law.

The Gentile believers are "doers of the Law", though they don't know the Law, because the Law is written on their hearts by the Spirit, which is the promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31).

 

[bro.tan]

Already answered this: the Gentile believers were "doers of the Law" who would be "justified" and "repaid eternal life" even though they "do not have the Law".

I need some Book on that, not a random answer.

 

[bro.tan]

The Gentile believers are "doers of the Law", though they don't know the Law, because the Law is written on their hearts by the Spirit, which is the promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31).

How are they doer of the law if they don't know the law?