NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[ewq1938]

This is why we can never agree on this. Israel has returned from the brink before. They did that after the Babylonian Captivity.

That was before Christ. Theer is no national salvation in the NT, not for generations and not the last generation.

And Jesus said that was not the worst "punishment" that Israel would experience. They would begin the worst tribulation in history in his generation, which was in 70 AD and continuing until the end of the age.

The trib has not yet started, and when it does it is a war against Christian not against those of Judaism.

But again, Israel will be restored. To say that won't or can't happen is a huge preumption on your part. It's like saying a nation can never adopt Christianity as their official religion, which is patently false. It's like saying someone you know who isn't now a Christian can never become a Christian.

No prophecy shows the entire people suddenly accepting Christ. Conversions only happen on the individual level and it's fairly rare for one to leave Judaism for Christianity.

It's a terrible judgment on your part. It is one thing to say you don't *think* it will happen, or to say that you don't believe there will be time after Christ comes again. But no, you just say it *can't* happen. I take serious exception with that.

On the contrary, Israel was saved many times from their enemies. That is a political salvation.

That's OT. That isn't evidence for NT times. It does not happen in any NT prophecy.

 

[Jack]

That was before Christ. Theer is no national salvation in the NT, not for generations and not the last generation.

The trib has not yet started, and when it does it is a war against Christian not against those of Judaism.


No prophecy shows the entire people suddenly accepting Christ. Conversions only happen on the individual level and it's fairly rare for one to leave Judaism for Christianity.

That's OT. That isn't evidence for NT times. It does not happen in any NT prophecy.

Gee, I hope you're not in this group:

Zechariah 14
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you're missing Timothy's point. Even if Israel has been "broken off," it is not that they have stopped being a People who were promised perpetual forgiveness, that even if they were "broken off" they could be restored.

Israel did not stop being "Israel" when they were "broken off." Rather, they just stopped containing the Kingdom of God and representing God in their national life. This was always the result when they not only sinned in part, but in whole, destroying utterly the entire Covenant Agreement. The legal agreement was torn apart which had made them the People of God. But the promise of Restoration remains, in my opinion.

Anybody in Israel, even while they were in covenant under the Law, were excised and cast off from the nation when they rebelled. The entire nation, in their apostasy and rebellion, were completely cut off from representing God in their temple worship and in the land of Israel, because their temple was destroyed, and they were exiled, away from their land.

None of this meant that a burning up of the Covenant Document could not see restoration, or mercy. Mercy transcends a failure of the entire system, even when there is no longer available any repair under that system itself. How can one atone for their sins under temple law when the Temple no longer exists? And yet God restored Israel after the Babylonian Captivity *by mercy!*

So Israel's being broken as by a complete failure of the Law does not mean that mercy has ceased to exist. God has promised that mercy would *always* be available to those who would eventually make use of it.

Obviously, it will never be available to those who *never* wish to repent. They will be cast off forever, but Israel can be restored as a nation *through repentance* and via *mercy!* At least, that's how I see it.

The belief that Israel cannot be restored *ever* is based on past performance, in which Israel as a nation has failed to repent and embrace Christianity for 2000 years. And I understand that. It is a legitimate Christian position to take, even though I think it is untrue.

I think, personally, that God's Word has yet to be fully revealed, and that the necessary changes will take place *at* the Coming of Christ, and not before. It's just a matter of whether we believe in a literal Millennium or not.

IMO your huge doctrinal error is to see Israel as "they", where your "they" means "the Jews".

Israel itself - the chosen nation|elect of God - has NEVER been broken off from God's everlasting covenant with Abraham, which the Mosaic covenant did not annul, because the remnant of Abraham's|Isaac's|Jacob|Israel's natural descendants believed at the time when the rest of those who were naturally born descendants of Jacob were broken off through their unbelief,

and believing Gentiles - not naturally born descendants of Jacob - have been added to Israel ever since.

Israel does not equate with "the Jews".

The mercy you speak about has been available to ALL Jews and to ALL Gentiles ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion, turning away ungodliness from Jacob, and taking away their (and our) sins.

The mercy you speak about has ALWAYS been available to ALL Jews and to EVERY Jew IF he repents of his sins and turns to faith in Christ (Romans 11:23).

But because you see "Israel" as "the Jews" you're waiting for a group that you see as "National Israel", which you falsely equate with "the Jews" to be restored to God.

But the the only group that will ever be called Israel is in Christ through faith in Christ, who is the seed promised to Abraham through whom all nations of the earth are blessed - and ever since the death and resurrection of Christ, Israel is become a catholic (universal) group made of of individual "living stones".

There is no such thing as "National Salvation" for any nation.

I believe you are wrong if you believe that just because the majority of individuals in a nation claim to believe in Christ, or because a time came when Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire or of nations|countries, means that "countries A-M are saved nations (nationally saved) but countries N-Z are not saved, and countries N-Z includes the country that the Jews call Israel" .

The above is indeed what is implied by what you are saying regarding national salvation.

The only Israel in Christ is catholic (universal - made up of individuals from many nations, tribes and tongues) - and it includes many Jews.*

* In the days before the exile of Israel's ten Northern tribes in 725 B.C, the only Israel that existed was made up of twelve tribes, and it included the tribe of Judah.

IMO the longer you falsely equate the name "Israel" with "the Jews", and the longer you believe in the possibility of a group salvation instead of individuals in Christ making up the group of living stones in Christ which is a catholic group,

the longer you will believe in a false covenant that has never existed.

The promise to Abraham was always about Christ and the fact that in Him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Through Him Abraham became the father of many nations, which was God's first promise to Abraham. The promise to Abraham was never about an ethnic group descended from the tribe of Judah, but about ONE MAN descended from the tribe of Judah, i.e Jesus.

God continued to have mercy on "the Jews" (Hosea1:7) after the ten Northern tribes were cut off|ceased being a nation before God in 725 B.C, but once the promised seed of Abraham (Jesus) came, and ever since then, only those who believe remain part of Israel. The rest are broken off.

Those individuals among the natural descendants of Judah who did not believe in Jesus, but then repent of their unbelief, are grafted back in again - and even if every single Jew were to repent, Israel will still be a catholic (universal) nation in Christ made up of all nations, tribes and tongues, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham.

The fact that the Jews chose to call their national state "Israel" (instead of Judah or Judea) makes no difference to the reality. The Jews who live in the state that the Jews and the world calls "Israel" are not part of Israel unless they are in Christ through faith in Christ.

And it is a blight and a shame - an absolute disgraceful shame - on the part of Israel (i.e Israel in Christ) that many of us are more concerned about the evil that is done to unbelievers by unbelievers in Judea/Israel/Palestine, than we are concerned about what is being done to Israel in Christ (a.k.a Christians) in many African and Islamic countries, and in countries like China.

Come to think about it, I don't actually hear many Jews shouting out against what gets done to Christians in many parts of the world, the way so many Christians shout about what is done by Muslims to Jews in the Middle East.

Why is this the case? It's because Jews are not Israel - they do not believe in Jesus, the seed of Abraham. In fact many Jews are against Him, so they don't care about what happens to Christians at the hands of Muslims or rogue governments like China.

So IMO your huge doctrinal error is to see Israel as "they", where your "they" means "the Jews".​

 

[Zao is life]

I mean Israel, the Land of the Bible, Jerusalem is its Capital. Why aren't you attacking Hamas who causes all of this.

Israel is made of of many nations, tribes and tongues in Christ through faith in Christ.

You mean Israel, the lands (plural) of the Bible. Wherever Christians are persecuted, Israel is being attacked.

I don't know which Bible you read.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't believe this is true, or Biblical:

Even if Israel has been "broken off," it is not that they have stopped being a People who were promised perpetual forgiveness, that even if they were "broken off" they could be restored.

No human being is promised perpetual forgiveness, except those who believe in Christ. It is given to man to die once, but after this, the judgment. No nation is promised forgiveness. It's promised to individuals who believe in Christ, who come out of many nations, tribes and tongues and who together as a group, are Israel.

IMO none of this is true, or biblical either:​

Israel did not stop being "Israel" when they were "broken off." Rather, they just stopped containing the Kingdom of God .

God's kingdom is not "contained" in humans who do not believe in the seed promised to Abraham, like Abraham did.

See my post #323 Everything you have been saying in the last two posts is based on falsehood - your faith in a lie, IMO.​

 

[Zao is life]

Israel broken off?

Some of the Jews who are naturally born as descendnats of 1/12th of Israel, yes. 2/3rds of 1/12th of Israel was broken off, yes. God in Christ's decree. R-E-A-L-I-T-Y.

Your fight against God's will is against God Himself. Reading post #323 and getting your theology in line with the Bible and the truth of God in Christ, the seed promised to Abraham, might help.

 

[Zao is life]

I have never stated the term Israel has changed.

There is only one Israel, and that is Israel in Christ.

Now you're getting there. And those in Christ are made up of individuals from all nations, tribes and tongues. It's not one nation, but many. Abraham has become the father of many nations, a.k.a Israel.​

 

[Zao is life]

By your response I can tell that you don't understand, or won't understand, the point? The promise is that the currently Lost will *get found* in the future, when Christ returns.

If that's true then all unbelievers all around the world will "get found" when Christ returns.

They will all finally see Him with their eyes. But it will be too late.

 

[Zao is life]

Racism against yourself ? or others of your own race ?
I think it's just called honesty ! and the Truth.
Racism discriminates and to be able to discriminate means that one has a functioning brain in fact !
One who points out issues openly about yourself or others, is a Christian and why do they do such ? because there is an issue that needs to be addressed in fact ! we are not owned, for we have every right to discriminate any difference, why because it's True, if such was not true then that would only be prejudice as such, is then stupid.

I'm talking about exalting one nation above all other nations by saying of a certain ethnic group that regardless of their unbelief in Christ, they belong to Israel, and are still God's elect "for the sake of their fathers" (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) when all Paul said is that because they are still beloved for the sake of their fathers, God will restore the individuals among them to Israel (God's elect people) IF they repent.​

If you are not truly born again you are a Slave in fact ! why well because such a one is Lost and not Saved !​

So why exalt one ethnic group of slaves above another? It's racist against all other ethnic groups of slaves to exalt one of them above all others.​

Hey i call Islam out for such a gutless moronic mongrel attack on the State called Israel and i give them no credibility at all, but outright condemnation of such an attack !

So do I. I absolutely loathe what they did to the Jews in the state the Jews and the world calls "Israel" on 7 Oct.

Likewise I also loathe the same things that have been done to thousands of white farmers in South Africa, with the same diabolical methods of killing, which the Jews in Israel, the MSM and almost everyone else never talk about.
​

Yet among them - even among those terrorist murderers - there are former terrorists who have repented, and are now Christians. They have become my brothers in Christ. It's hard to forgive our enemies, but if Christ has forgiven them, who are we not to forgive when we ourselves needed forgiveness, and continue to need forgiveness for our own sins?

So I don't go with the rest of what you said about anyone's ethnic group. No ethnic group deserves more condemnation for sin than any other, but some acts are simply diabolical, and it's true that faith in Islam seems to help many to commit such acts. But many of those - if not most of them - who have done the same things to white farmers in South Africa are not Muslims, and did not need Islam. They get the blessing to go ahead with their planned acts of evil from their witch-doctors, after their witch-doctors have communicated with the spirits of their ancestors, and got the blessing from them.

Satan has many forms of religion in this world.

Even the truth is twisted by the theology of some - like the theology of those who teach that Israel = "the Jews".​

 

[Zao is life]

Gee, I hope you're not in this group:

Zechariah 14
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

When God judges the nations in that territory it will have nothing to do with defending unbelievers who do not believe in Jesus.

It will be because the nations gave a certain ethnic group of unbelievers their independence in that territory, and then the nations became divided between those that (a) embarked on a plan to eradicate all Jews - both believer and unbelievers - from the territory (which is born from their diabolical hatred of Jews), or (b) dealt treacherously with the unbelievers (Jews) whom they gave their independence to, by helping to strengthen their surrounding enemies against them while preventing them from adequately defending themselves.

All the treachery of the nations finds its nest in the territory where God will judge the nations.

All unbelievers - Jewish and non-Jewish unbelievers - will also suffer the same eternal fate.

Your exaltation of one ethnic group of unbelievers above all others, is racist. A replacement for Hitler's pure ethnic race.​

 

[Jack]

Israel is made of of many nations, tribes and tongues in Christ through faith in Christ.

No it isn't. lol Why do you make this up?

You mean Israel, the lands (plural) of the Bible.

Again, you're making it up!

Amos 9
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

Wherever Christians are persecuted, Israel is being attacked.

I don't know which Bible you read.

It's called the Christian Bible. Israel is back to stay and there's nothing the JEALOUS Israel wannabees can do to change it!

 

[Jack]

Some of the Jews who are naturally born as descendnats of 1/12th of Israel, yes. 2/3rds of 1/12th of Israel was broken off, yes. God in Christ's decree. R-E-A-L-I-T-Y.

Your fight against God's will is against God Himself. Reading post #323 and getting your theology in line with the Bible and the truth of God in Christ, the seed promised to Abraham, might help.

Israel is Israel. Don't have a map?

 

[Jack]

When God judges the nations in that territory it will have nothing to do with defending unbelievers who do not believe in Jesus.

It will be because the nations gave a certain ethnic group of unbelievers their independence in that territory, and then the nations became divided between those that (a) embarked on a plan to eradicate all Jews - both believer and unbelievers - from the territory (which is born from their diabolical hatred of Jews), or (b) dealt treacherously with the unbelievers (Jews) whom they gave their independence to, by helping to strengthen their surrounding enemies against them while preventing them from adequately defending themselves.

All the treachery of the nations finds its nest in the territory where God will judge the nations.

All unbelievers - Jewish and non-Jewish unbelievers - will also suffer the same eternal fate.

Your exaltation of one ethnic group of unbelievers above all others, is racist. A replacement for Hitler's pure ethnic race.​

You have lots of opinions but not much Scripture. Israel is back to stay!

 

[Zao is life]

You have lots of opinions but not much Scripture. Israel is back to stay!

I have given loads of scripture in this thread that support everything I've said. You haven't given much scripture at all, and when you express any opinion about Israel, all your opinions contradict scripture.

You don't worship the God of the Olive tree and His Son. Instead you have turned your back on the Olive tree and its branches to hold up the dead broken off branches that were lying on the ground, calling them Israel, full of awe and wonder and amazement at how beautiful your "Israel" is.

 

[Zao is life]

Amos 9
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

It's called the Christian Bible. Israel is back to stay and there's nothing the JEALOUS Israel wannabees can do to change it!

It has not happened yet. Gog of the land of Magog will come against them at the close of the millennium, which follows the return of Christ.

Read your Bible so that you can begin to believe it. It's the Word of God. It will not include any Jewish or Gentile unbelievers. Because the inheritance is Christ's and those who are in Christ through their faith in Him. The multitude of nations whose patriarch is Abraham - not your dead broken off branches.​

 

[Zao is life]

It's called the Christian Bible. Israel is back to stay and there's nothing the JEALOUS Israel wannabees can do to change it!

The land allotted by God to the Jews is called Judah, not Israel. The Romans called it Judea. Most of it is situated in the West Bank, a.k.a "Palestine" and the United Nations did not give it to the Jews, but the Jews have been settling in it "illegally", which has been helping to fuel the flames of international hatred for the Jews

Do you need a map?​

 

[Zao is life]

You have lots of opinions but not much Scripture. Israel is back to stay!

Israel has not ceased to exist since Jaocb fathered 12 sons, one of whom was named Judah. How can Israel be back? Back from what?

 

[Randy Kluth]

That was before Christ. Theer is no national salvation in the NT, not for generations and not the last generation.

I don't consider Israel's *political salvation* to be dependent on whether it is BC or AD, except that when Israel had a covenant with God before Christ there was focus on that history, whereas in the NT era Israel has no covenant with God because as a people they've rejected Christ. None of this means that the nation cannot be restored, which it has, and then accept Christ as a people. This could be and likely is a future reality at the return of Christ. So an argument that they are not still under the Law has no validity, since failure under the Law has a precedent in Israel's OT restoration under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

The trib has not yet started, and when it does it is a war against Christian not against those of Judaism.

I've said this perhaps a 100 times, and yet it is not acknowledged. Jesus said the great tribulation of the Jewish People would begin in his generation with the destruction of the temple, and would last until the end of the age. Jesus depicted it clearly as a Jewish "punishment."

I'm not saying that we cannot use the words "Great Tribulation" for the reign of Antichrist. Obviously, it will be great tribulation for Christians who have to resist him. But that doesn't mean that Jesus defined "Great Tribulation" differently than how I'm defining it, as the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era.

No prophecy shows the entire people suddenly accepting Christ. Conversions only happen on the individual level and it's fairly rare for one to leave Judaism for Christianity.

That's false. While it's true that no national conversion involves every individual coming to a complete and lasting conversion, we are talking about what is necessary to bring about a political revival of the nation. And clearly, Moses made it clear that general repentance in the population could lead to national restoration.

Josh 24.21 But the people said to Joshua, “No! We will serve the Lord.”

Deut 30.When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

That's OT. That isn't evidence for NT times. It does not happen in any NT prophecy.

There are several indicators that national Israel will be restored and come to Christ at his Coming, eg the Olivet Discourse, Acts 1, and Rom 11. You were denying there is such a thing as "political salvation of a nation," resulting out of national repentance, and I was just showing you that it is indeed a reality, as evidenced in the OT record. It is equally true in NT times, since Christian nations have also experience political deliverance, such as at the Battle of Tours. Christians, on that occasion, experienced political victory as they depended upon their relationship with Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If that's true then all unbelievers all around the world will "get found" when Christ returns.

They will all finally see Him with their eyes. But it will be too late.

I'm certainly not saying that. Non-sequitur. National repentance experienced in Israel at Christ's Coming does not necessarily infer national repentance in all other nations at the same time. Each nation has its own history. However, I do assume that former Christian nations will indeed return to Christ at his Coming, just as I believe Israel will do.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't believe this is true, or Biblical:

No human being is promised perpetual forgiveness, except those who believe in Christ. ​

You are describing "perpetual forgiveness" different than how I was describing it or defining it. In Deut 28-30, God described the blessings and curses of the Law, depending on obedience or disobedience. In that discourse Moses explained that forgiveness for the nation would *always* be offered them, if they repented, because God had promised Abraham the nation of Israel forever. Not even a complete failure under the system of the Law could prevent mercy from being shown them in the end.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.