Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?

[Peterlag]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whenever confronted with the Bible fact that Jesus Christ saves and takes away the sins of the world from the hearts and lives of His people, and that there is no sin in Him, some Christians insist that only applies to Jesus Christ Himself.

They say, (not me, but I speak as a sinner man), that He is the only man on earth having no sin in Him, but that all of His people still have sin in them, and continue sinning in this life unto the death.

Is Jesus Christ the Head sinless with His own body full of sin? God forbid. Is the sinless Head separated by sin from His own body? God forbid.

Boy do I agree with you. Here's some Scripture on it...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

 

[GracePeace]

Boy do I agree with you. Here's some Scripture on it...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

"Abideth in Him"--but "little children" are often led away from abiding in Him by idolatry (1 Jn 2:28, 5:21), which is why it can be said "there is no condemnation" for those "in Christ", and yet that the Christian who does not walk by faith can be condemned--they're not abiding in Him by obeying His commands (1 Jn 3:23,24).

 

[Ghada]

Yeah but they're not all the same. That's why I'm saying I don't judge based solely on doctrine.

Then we agree. People can talk doctrine all we want. But in works we either love or deny Him.

And the Bible shows that if our doctrine does lead to more ungodliness, even if we aren't practicing it ourselves, then we will answer to God for defiling His temple body with our corrupting ministry.

The example you give is simply a case of not practicing what they preach. OSAS teaches all Christians certainly will continue to sin, and make no bones about it. They declare it impossible to go and sin no more.

Even if not all of them do as they preach, I have met some who absolutely put it to practice to their own destruction.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I've met some fornicators who openly proclaim it, and say they are already forgiven for all such sins past, present, and future. So they know they will fornicate again with forgiveness. Not if, but when. And some even say that if it gets so bad, then God kills them to take them out of the way to heaven, so as not to keep profaning His name.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;

I admit that I apply a personal judgment to some teaching, that is so deep in bed with Satan, that I'll not extend the right hand of fellowship to them, no matter how they appear to live. Afterall, the Pharisees were more outwardly righteous than Jesus Christ Himself, and He says to just let them alone.

And just to be clear brother. I don't look for reasons not to share fellowship with confessing Christians. In practice, it's the opposite. I ask no questions for conscience sake. However, if I'm being slapped upside the head with it, then well, I don't play pretend and give them a holy kiss anyway.

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 7:17 KJV
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This gives the answer.

And this,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Romans 6:6-11 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are in Christ, and in Christ is no sin. Sin lives in our flesh, and we have been born again of the Spirit of God, and are immersed into Christ. We now have the power to control our flesh, as God continues to train us and form us in serving His will by our love for others.

Romans 7:17 KJV
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

What makes this such a key passage is that it shows something changed, ". . . it is no more I . . .", and indicates what that change was, no more I that do it, that is, sin, but sin that lives in me. And he goes on, there is nothing good in me, that is, in my flesh.

We are born again in the spirit, created in righteousness and true holiness, and have been hid with Christ in God, and in Him is no sin.

Much love!

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

 

[Peterlag]

We can also take note that those who teach a sinless Head separate from a sinful body, also teach a Christian doctrine of a sinless soul and spirit sitting in heaven, that is separate from their sinful life and body on earth.

At least they're consistent, when trying to separate themselves from their continued sinning on earth, and any condemnation of it by God.

Oh my God you're brilliant.

 

[GracePeace]

Then we agree. People can talk doctrine all we want. But in works we either love or deny Him.

And the Bible shows that if our doctrine does lead to more ungodliness, even if we aren't practicing it ourselves, then we will answer to God for defiling His temple body with our corrupting ministry.

The example you give is simply a case of not practicing what they preach. OSAS teaches all Christians certainly will continue to sin, and make no bones about it. They declare it impossible to go and sin no more.

Even if not all of them do as they preach, I have met some who absolutely put it to practice to their own destruction.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I've met some fornicators who openly proclaim it, and say they are already forgiven for all such sins past, present, and future. So they know they will fornicate again with forgiveness. Not if, but when. And some even say that if it gets so bad, then God kills them to take them out of the way to heaven, so as not to keep profaning His name.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;

I admit that I apply a personal judgment to some teaching, that is so deep in bed with Satan, that I'll not extend the right hand of fellowship to them, no matter how they appear to live. Afterall, the Pharisees were more outwardly righteous than Jesus Christ Himself, and He says to just let them alone.

And just to be clear brother. I don't look for reasons not to share fellowship with confessing Christians. In practice, it's the opposite. I ask no questions for conscience sake. However, if I'm being slapped upside the head with it, then well, I don't play pretend and give them a holy kiss anyway.

I've seen a lot of OSASers teach that, even if they're not saved by their good works, if they're not living in holiness, then they really should doubt whether they're saved in the first place, because the Spirit is supposed to be keeping them living in holiness until the end.

This is INCONSISTENT with the rest of their teachings, but they specialize in inconsistency and cognitive dissonance, so this should come as no surprise.

 

[Ghada]

Boy do I agree with you. Here's some Scripture on it...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

Amen. And it's all present tense.

We are not claiming to have never sinned, nor do we say it is impossible for us to give into temptation and sin.

What the Bible says is, that it is impossible to be a born son of God and not a child of the devil, while doing evil with the devil.

God is not mocked, and the Father only has obedient sons in Christ Jesus.

 

[GracePeace]

Amen. And it's all present tense.

We are not claiming to have never sinned, nor do we say it is impossible for us to give into temptation and sin.

What the Bible says is, that it is impossible to be a born son of God and not a child of the devil, while doing evil with the devil.

God is not mocked, and the Father only has obedient sons in Christ Jesus.

I've heard it said this way: for Christians, sin is the exception not the rule.

 

[Ghada]

I've seen a lot of OSASers teach that, even if they're not saved by their good works, if they're not living in holiness, then they really should doubt whether they're saved in the first place, because the Spirit is supposed to be keeping them living in holiness until the end.

This is INCONSISTENT without the rest of their teachings, but they specialize in inconsistency, so this should come as no surprise.

The old Baptists call it Once Saved Stay Saved. Once we are truly saved from sinning, we will stay saved from sinning.

I would only say that we should stay saved from sinning. But if we do sin, then we still have the same Advocate with the Father, that all the world has.

It means that if we fall, we do not have to count ourselves out of the race forever. We can still repent with godly sorrow unto Jesus' saving forgiveness and washing new and squeaky clean.

 

[GracePeace]

The old Baptists call it Once Saved Stay Saved. Once we are truly saved from sinning, we will stay saved from sinning.

I would only say that we should stay saved from sinning. But if we do sin, then we still have the same Advocate with the Father, that all the world has.

It means that if we fall, we do not have to count ourselves out of the race forever. We can still repent with godly sorrow unto Jesus' saving forgiveness and washing new and squeaky clean.

That's my view. Seems Biblical.

 

[Stumpmaster]

You need to emphasize that the sinful body, will be made sinless by the sinless Head.

In the meantime, thorns in the flesh, and chastisements to keep us in line.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Heb 12:3-11 For consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds. (4) You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (5) And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him; (6) for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (7) If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? (8) But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons. (9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? (10) For truly they chastened us for a few days according to their own pleasure, but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness. (11) Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.

 

[marks]

We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

Well stated!

Much love!

 

[Peterlag]

Amen. And it's all present tense.

We are not claiming to have never sinned, nor do we say it is impossible for us to give into temptation and sin.

What the Bible says is, that it is impossible to be a born son of God and not a child of the devil, while doing evil with the devil.

God is not mocked, and the Father only has obedient sons in Christ Jesus.

I see us walking in the new nature. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[Taken]

Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?



weird.

 

[Peterlag]

I looked up every word for sin in the New Testament and then wrote about it and you can see part of it by clicking on the following link. Every single human being that I have told this about tells me I'm totally insane or working for the devil. But when I trace what everyone has been taught... it leads me right back to the Catholics. www.carb-fat.com/walking-by-the-spirit.html

 

[The Learner]

thumbs up to all

 

[Ghada]

I've heard it said this way: for Christians, sin is the exception not the rule.

I agree. The difference is clearly between those who do repent of sinning to have faith toward God. and those who do not repent of sinning and claim salvation from God by faith alone.

Those that do repent, may possibly sin, and those that only believe will surely sin.

 

[Ghada]

"We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands..."

This is what Gabby in "Blazing Saddles" would call a fine western display of meaningless blather.

It's a perfect example of high sounding words of praise for something they reject doing.

So many pretty words just to say, "My faith does not keep me from transgressing Christ's law."

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Ghada]

I see us walking in the new nature. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

Nor can the saint be sinning when in Christ, in whom is no sinning. The sinless Head does not have a sinful body.

The hypocrisy is readily seen by even the world. Unrepented sinful Christians claiming to be walking in the Spirit 'in their minds', while walking after the flesh with the world, is nothing but spiritualized inward religion, that has nothing to do with how we live.

They preach a new age Christianity, but less honestly. They exhaust themselves with bogus theology twisted from the Bible, just to justify their continued sinful living. The new agers don't drag people's minds through all that rigmarole. They just say they are divine within, and how they live is just life in this world. Simply wrong, but at least honest.

At least they don't spend so much time trashing the Bible to justify themselves.

What a false apostle and teacher does most, is spend so much 'Bible scholarship' time just to say, "sinning is ok, so long as we believe..."

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

They get so caught up in it, that they even think they can convince people of something, by changing the meaning of words in order to change the meaning of the Bible.

I mean, who in the world of a child's common sense actually tries to argue about being a man or woman, vs a human man or woman??

Even apes aren't stupid enough to argue a difference between being an ape, vs being a primate ape.

It gets to where it's not the ministering of sinning to Christians, that is so bad. Afterall, that's peoples' own business, and God will judge the works in the end. But the Chinese water torture drip-drip of insults to the Bible and standard intelligence, becomes almost unbearable.

"Jesus was a man, but not a human man!" Are you kidding me?? So is a human man therefore not a man??

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

 

[GracePeace]

I agree. The difference is clearly between those who do repent of sinning to have faith toward God. and those who do not repent of sinning and claim salvation from God by faith alone.

Those that do repent, may possibly sin, and those that only believe will surely sin.

Many who believe in salvation by faith alone also believe that that salvation MUST manifest itself in holiness--eg, Spurgeon, who was a Calvinist, said "If you don't care about saving souls, be sure your soul is not saved either."