JunChosen
Well-Known Member
I think you forgot 2 Corinthians 5:8.There are no “souls” in heaven
To God Be The Glory
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I think you forgot 2 Corinthians 5:8.There are no “souls” in heaven
How does the above happen seeing that God will destroy this present universe and will create a New Heaven and Earth?but they will in the future, when the earth is cleansed and redeemed mankind can at last enjoy what God purposed for them in the beginning.
Why would it say all the graves were opened since not all the faithful saints had died? In order for all the saints in all the graves to be opened, all the saints would have to have died, but only many of them had, so graves were opened and MANY NOT ALL bodies of the saints which slept arose. There were still bodies of saints alive that were not in graves and therefore were not raised.
Matthew 27:52 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
I'm not hung up on holy, that's where the text says they were seen by many. Though there is biblical proof of people who have died being in heaven, where the holy city new Jerusalem is located, there is not to my knowledge any written proof of these risen saints ascending into Jerusalem of earth.
Even though it sounds very strange, Matthew locates the raising of the bodies of the saints at the death of Jesus, and their coming out of the tombs and entering Jerusalem after the resurrection. The phrase “after his resurrection” (μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ) does not naturally modify “many bodies of the saints were raised” — as if the bodies of the saints were raised only after Jesus’s body was raised. Rather, it most naturally modifies “having come out of the tombs . . . they entered the holy city” (καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν): “ . . . and having come out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city.”Jesus, having cried out again with a loud voice, yielded up his spirit;
and behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom;
and the earth shook,
and the rocks were split;
and the tombs were opened,
and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised . . .
There are no “souls” in heaven....souls are living, breathing earthly creatures....and there is no mention of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible...so please show us these living souls that are in heaven after death.....but please don’t mention Rev 6:9-11 because that is not about actual living souls, but those martyred for their faith. If your reference is to those verses, then you have a problem with the timing.
Also when Luke 20:37-38 said...”But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”
As far as God is concerned all of his faithful dead ones sleeping in their graves are as good as alive because he remembers everything about them. He promised them a resurrection, which is a return, or restoration of life here on earth, so that they get to enjoy, (along with all other faithful ones) an earthly paradise free from sin and all its consequences....something Adam never got to experience and neither did his children......but they will in the future, when the earth is cleansed and redeemed mankind can at last enjoy what God purposed for them in the beginning. (Isa 55:11)
In the Old Testament the Jews used lambs and rams, and animals, for sacrificial offerings. However, God knew that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Hebrews 10:9-12:
09 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
“But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.”...where is there mention of the soul here? Where is “home” for the elect?I think you forgot 2 Corinthians 5:8.
Nowhere does the Bible say that there is any fault with God’s creation itself. There is no reason to destroy the universe for the defection of humans on earth, or even the angels who followed satan into rebellion.How does the above happen seeing that God will destroy this present universe and will create a New Heaven and Earth?
Amen! Kingdom Hall victims for example!Not all Christians are “born again”....
“But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.”“But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.”...where is there mention of the soul here? Where is “home” for the elect?
Paul was speaking about the time when Christ would return to take his anointed ones “home”....the place he went to “prepare a place” for them. Flesh and blood cannot exist in the spirit realm where God and his angels reside, so they have to be transformed so as to be given a new body.....one that can exist in the spirit world. That is what it means to be “born again”......
“Your dead ones will live. . . . Awake and cry out joyfully, you residents in the dust! . . . And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.” (Isaiah 26:19)
Not all Christians are “born again”....only those “chosen from among mankind” (Rev 14:1-5) will have the privilege of ruling with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6) Rulers need subjects, and priests need sinners for whom to offer their priestly services.....so who will they rule.....and for whom will they act as priests?
Nowhere does the Bible say that there is any fault with God’s creation itself. There is no reason to destroy the universe for the defection of humans on earth, or even the angels who followed satan into rebellion.
It is those element that will be removed from existence so that God’s original purpose for this earth and mankind upon it can be restored.
Isa 45:18...
“For this is what Jehovah says,
The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:
“I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.”
What God starts...he finishes. (Isa 55:11)
Since I do not know of any scripture where “living souls” are said to be “in heaven”, you will need to cite the passages that say so.Rev 6 is not reference to living souls in heaven. Because they had not yet ascended to heaven, but after they died in faith they were said to be under the altar. To be under the altar is to believe in the Messiah who was to come. These souls physically died knowing the promised Messiah who was to come would set them free from bondage to the grave (Abraham's bosom) they were captives to. They won't ascend to heaven until Christ descends into the lower parts of the earth (grave/Abraham's bosom) to set them free. This cannot happen before Christ comes and makes atonement for sin, and defeats death. Christ did this after His resurrection, before ascending to heaven.
“The lower parts of the earth” is a reference to what? Not “Abraham’s bosom”. That is not a place but a position of favour with God. It has reference to reclining at a meal where the one closest to the “bosom” (chest) of the one next to him was in a position of favour....a more intimate position for conversation with a close companion. The “bosom of Abraham” indicates such a position of favour with God.Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I’m sorry, but where does it say that? Since a “soul” is a living, breathing earth bound creature, there are no “souls” in heaven. Those who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits.After His resurrection, as I've repeatedly stated, Christ went into the graves that held these faithful saints to set them free, taking them with Him spiritually alive to heaven, where they NOW are not the dead, but living souls in heaven, a spiritual body of believers. This includes even those saints of Old such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. BECAUSE GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING, NOT THE DEAD!
Nowhere does the Bible say that a spiritual part of man is distinct from his body and can live consciously without it. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) The whole person dies...not even love survives death.The only part of the souls left in the graves after death is the physical body. Because every spirit returns to God after the physical body dies. (Ecc 12:7)
The “spirit” that returns to God is the ability of the Creator to again give life and breath to a dead soul in the resurrection. All your ideas count on the existence of an immortal soul that survives death. Anything apart from the fact that death ends life, (except for a chosen few) is unscriptural nonsense.When the spirit in mankind returns to God after physical death, it will either be in silence and darkness OR a living soul belonging to a spiritual body of believers in heaven. Whether ascending to heaven in silence and darkness or a living soul is dependent upon whether or not the Spirit of Christ is within when we die. Because the Spirit of Christ promises to be with believers until the redemption of God's own possession that shall be our immortal & incorruptible living soul, complete again, as we were in the beginning.
Again this is a failure to render scripture as it was written....God did not foreordain anything “from before creation”. Everything God made was pronounced “very good” and it would have stayed that way if only humans had obeyed God’s command.As a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is via promise that which was ordained in heaven before creation would not fail, but would come to pass when Christ, the promised Messiah came.
Says Kingdom Hall!Since I do not know of any scripture where “living souls” are said to be “in heaven”, you will need to cite the passages that say so.
“The lower parts of the earth” is a reference to what? Not “Abraham’s bosom”. That is not a place but a position of favour with God. It has reference to reclining at a meal where the one closest to the “bosom” (chest) of the one next to him was in a position of favour....a more intimate position for conversation with a close companion. The “bosom of Abraham” indicates such a position of favour with God.
If you read Eph 4:4-10 in context, you will see what Paul meant....He is speaking of those with the “calling” (Heb 3:1)
“4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)” (KJV)
Jesus came from heaven to “the lower parts of the earth” and then, after his mission was completed, he “ascended up far above” our physical heavens, to return to his Father. The “captives” were those taken from the devil’s clutches....snatched away from the corrupted Jewish religious system.
Jesus died in exactly the same manner as any other mortal human.
He was confined in that grave for three days and nights just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish. (Matt 16:4; Matt 12:40) He did not go anywhere because he was not resurrected until the three days had elapsed. He was not resurrected bodily because that body had been sacrificed. He was raised as a spirit, ready to return to heaven in the spirit body he had before his human birth. ( 1 Peter 3:18)
The scriptures tell us that he “appeared” to many during that time in physical form, but not always in the same body, which could appear and disappear at will. (Luke 24:31)
I’m sorry, but where does it say that? Since a “soul” is a living, breathing earth bound creature, there are no “souls” in heaven. Those who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits.
The faithful ones of old are still in their graves awaiting their promised resurrection to an earth restored by the rule of God’s kingdom. They had no expectation of going to heaven. That possibility was opened up only when Messiah came and chose those who would form its very foundation...his 12 apostles. (Rev 21:14)
No human goes to heaven unless they are chosen for a role in God’s Kingdom......as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:12) Obviously not every Christian can fill those positions because we would have “all chiefs and no Indians”. Kings need subjects and priests need sinner in order to perform their duties. There are no sinners in heaven.
Nowhere does the Bible say that a spiritual part of man is distinct from his body and can live consciously without it. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) The whole person dies...not even love survives death.
A “soul” is a whole being. Nothing conscious lives on.....no scripture says that.
The “spirit” that returns to God is the ability of the Creator to again give life and breath to a dead soul in the resurrection. All your ideas count on the existence of an immortal soul that survives death. Anything apart from the fact that death ends life, (except for a chosen few) is unscriptural nonsense.
Again this is a failure to render scripture as it was written....God did not foreordain anything “from before creation”. Everything God made was pronounced “very good” and it would have stayed that way if only humans had obeyed God’s command.
The wording of that scripture is a reference to the foundation of the “cosmos”...which is not the physical earth or universe, but has the meaning of “laying down seed”....the beginning of the human race descended from the now defective human progenitors of all of us. God never intended for any of the events in Eden to take place, but because he gave all his intelligent creatures free will, he allowed them to make their choices after fully informing them of the dire consequences of disobedience. He then showed them what those consequence would mean in real life.....a slow and often painful descent into old age and death....and being at the mercy of those whose evil will was stronger than their own. (Eccl 8:9)
The angel who made himself “satan the devil” by his own rebellion, succeeded in tempting the woman to sin....she in turn tempted her husband who had the ability by his choice to change the course of what is now human history...but he chose badly and threw all of his children under the bus. We have to put the blame where it lies.....none of what happened is God’s fault. Free will was a gift to be properly exercised, but these three rebels turned it into a curse. God’s allowing humans to reap what they have sown is a powerful lesson for those who want to learn the importance of strict obedience to God.
Is it? In context it doesn’t say what you want it to. Read the whole passage. To whom was this addressed? Not to all Christians, but to those of “the heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)“But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.”
Straight-Forward Truth
The direct unambiguous context says:Is it? In context it doesn’t say what you want it to. Read the whole passage. To whom was this addressed? Not to all Christians, but to those of “the heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)
Why would Paul have to distinguish these ones if all had that “calling”?
1 Cor 1:2-3...Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians addressed two groups of Christians....
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
3 May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Anyone unaware of the distinction would read right over that introduction...straight forward truth...
Some are not “called to be holy ones” but are “together with” others who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is “their Lord and ours”.....it’s right there in plain sight.