Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Timtofly]

If "death" is not really dead, but merely separated from God, as you say, then why use the word "dead"? It's very misleading isn't it? I mean, people might think it actually means dead.

Are there physical bodies in sheol? We are talking about dead souls seperated from God. That is what the dead are even without a body.

We are considered dead even with a physical body. That is why the term mortal is used. This body is death. However Paul used the term mortal to describe the separation from our spirit as that is also death.

Paul never wrote we become immortal. Paul wrote this mortal puts on immortality. Most people think this body is all we are, and once returned to dust, we don't exist any more. Unless led of the Holy Spirit there is not even eternal life in their comprehension. Paul was pointing out we are dead, even if physically alive. We are called mortal for a reason, even if people fail to comprehend that point. We don't become mortal after physical death.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no change after the resurrection from Adam's death (which is the first death, and which came via Adam to all men, because all sinned).

This is still wrong and not from Scripture.

The first resurrection is the soul putting on a permanent incorruptible physical body. As the first death is Adam's dead corruptible physical body physically returning to dust. We live in this first death from conception to the point the physical body is no longer viable. This corruptible physical body is death.

In the instant Adam disobeyed God, Adam experienced the first death when his soul went from God's permanent incorruptible physical body of life to a temporal corruptible physical body of death. The first death is being conceived in the womb of a woman in water.

The second death is existing in the LOF. The first resurrection can only happen after this current physical body passes away. Those in Abraham's bosom waiting for the Cross to experience the first resurrection. The change was putting on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

You may argue Paul does not call that the first resurrection. Explain to me how many births and death are there, then?

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Scripture only mentions 2 births and two deaths. Which one is Paul talking about in 2 Corinthians 5:1?

In Romans 11, Paul does not replace the first birth and resurrection, with the second birth and resurrection. In Romans 11, Paul is comparing the physical relationship of being a natural branch with the spiritual act of being cut off. Then Paul explained those not in Christ could be made in Christ, both physically and spiritually. In 2 Corinthians 5:1 Paul is talking about the physical restoration, not the spiritual restoration of the soul.

We are in Christ via the Holy Spirit working in us and through us. The day of redemption is when the soul leaves this first body of death, and enters God's body of life. That is also the first resurrection. But the first resurrection is realized in Paradise in that unseen kingdom, not of this earth.

 

[Timtofly]

I find it odd that one would think God would be spit on and then nailed to a tree and die. There is no such record in the Old Testament of any such behavior from God. If you even got near what the Jews believed to be the Lords presence you were toast. That would be in the wrong part of the Temple or even touched the Ark of the Covenant.

I would not base the point on what the Jews believed either. God did remove the veil of the temple and everything associated with this earthly holiness, that would kill those who approached God.

That was the whole point of the Cross. Even Abraham knew that.

So why do humans think today, they need to protect God from being spit on and crucified as if that offends God in some way? If that were the case why should the Temple be destroyed in 70AD as an act of God's vengeance, if no human could spit on God as the reason for that vengeance? The point is that God removed Himself from the OT Covenant at the Cross by removing the veil. Jesus prophecied the temple would be destroyed. That Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed 40 years later is just them going mad as a result of their ultimate rejection of God.

This is what Abraham said: Genesis 22:8

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Jesus said: "Before Abraham was, I am."

 

[Zao is life]

My friend would ignore him because professional people with big ministries don't take the time to bicker with people who are nasty. The verse in question means nothing. The guy is literally fighting with me over nothing. One translation says "everlasting" and the other says "coming age" and neither had anything to do with the subject matter that we were talking about.

It's definitely not arguing over nothing, IMO. You changed the words everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 to father of the coming age in the context of arguing against the Trinity, firstly without saying you were using a different translation, then when I said you had corrupted the scriptures by changing the wording and the meaning in the process, then you said you were using a different translation, and though I asked many times which translation you were using, you simply refused to say.

You also misquoted scripture regarding the words "life-giving | quckening spirit" in 1 Cor.15:45, saying that your Bible has it "living spirit" and saying that it's no different to all born-again people having a living spirit.

It was only after I mentioned the fact that the Passion is the only other translation that might translate it that way, that you said something that might imply that it is indeed the Passion that you are using (although you STILL have not said which translation you are using).

You have not been forthright and straight-forward. If you change the wording of the scriptures anywhere so as to make it mean something else, then we all have the right to know what translation you are using.

Your methods are extremely questionable to say the least, IMO.​

 

[covenantee]

Are you unable to post without using me as the topic?

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I'm a sheep.

You refuse to declare that you're a sheep.

What's the problem?

 

[Peterlag]

It's definitely not arguing over nothing, IMO. You changed the words everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 to father of the coming age in the context of arguing against the Trinity, firstly without saying you were using a different translation, then when I said you had corrupted the scriptures by changing the wording and the meaning in the process, then you said you were using a different translation, and though I asked many times which translation you were using, you simply refused to say.

You also misquoted scripture regarding the words "life-giving | quckening spirit" in 1 Cor.15:45, saying that your Bible has it "living spirit" and saying that it's no different to all born-again people having a living spirit.

It was only after I mentioned the fact that the Passion is the only other translation that might translate it that way, that you said something that might imply that it is indeed the Passion that you are using (although you STILL have not said which translation you are using).

You have not been forthright and straight-forward. If you change the wording of the scriptures anywhere so as to make it mean something else, then we all have the right to know what translation you are using.

Your methods are extremely questionable to say the least, IMO.​

It's the same concept. I don't see the problem. God is everlasting or you could say it another way which is He is the Father of what's coming in the future. The meaning has not changed.

 

[Peterlag]

I would not base the point on what the Jews believed either. God did remove the veil of the temple and everything associated with this earthly holiness, that would kill those who approached God.

That was the whole point of the Cross. Even Abraham knew that.

So why do humans think today, they need to protect God from being spit on and crucified as if that offends God in some way? If that were the case why should the Temple be destroyed in 70AD as an act of God's vengeance, if no human could spit on God as the reason for that vengeance? The point is that God removed Himself from the OT Covenant at the Cross by removing the veil. Jesus prophecied the temple would be destroyed. That Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed 40 years later is just them going mad as a result of their ultimate rejection of God.

This is what Abraham said: Genesis 22:8

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Jesus said: "Before Abraham was, I am."

So you are saying God changed from being a bad ass warrior to something we can slap around. There is even a guy in the gospels who dropped dead for saying the wrong word and not giving God the glory. Or does that not matter either because it was before Jesus was resurrected?

 

[Zao is life]

It's the same concept. I don't see the problem. God is everlasting or you could say it another way which is He is the Father of what's coming in the future. The meaning has not changed.

I'm not surprised you don't see the problem, but though you do not see the problem, most others will see the problem with removing the word everlasting from the title everlasting Father, and most will regard it as even more alarming when you do so in the context of your arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Your arrogance in this regard is palpable.

Tell us plainly now, since you claimed afterward that it's the wording in the translation of the scriptures that you use, which translation are you using? Does the translation have a name, and who translated it?

 

[Davidpt]

It's not from the Septuagint (as you first attempted to imply), and you STILL have not bothered to mention which Bible translation it's from.

If you were honest you would have mentioned which Bible translation, straight away.

I just did a Google search and the following link was one of the results. Don't know if the link will be helpful to you or not. There are some other results as well, but I haven't checked any of them. What I searched on Google was this... Bible translation father of the coming age

Isaiah 9:6 – Father of the future age

FATHER OF THE IMPENDING AGE “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The powerful migh…

untotheages.wordpress.com

 

[Zao is life]

I just did a Google search and the following link was one of the results. Don't know if the link will be helpful to you or not. There are some other results as well, but I haven't checked any of them. What I searched on Google was this... Bible translation father of the coming age

Isaiah 9:6 – Father of the future age

FATHER OF THE IMPENDING AGE “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The powerful migh…

untotheages.wordpress.com

Thanks. The onus is on the poster to say which translation he is using. But he refuses to say. It's so simple. All that was needed was to say which translation he got that from, which is the right thing to do, under the circumstances. I don't know about you, but I'm sure that almost all Bible translators will find the removal of the word everlasting from the title of God in Isaiah 9:6, and changing the title everlasting Father to anything else, as completely unacceptable. I doubt that any Bible translator worth his salt would mess with the title of God like that.

PS @Davidpt a little down in that article they say that the translation is in the Septuagint.​

 

[Zao is life]

List of inaccuracies found in the Septuagint

Copy @Davidpt for info.

I have a copy of an English translation of Septuagint, and long ago I read the English translation of the Septuagint's version of Daniel 9:27. I found it difficult to make head or tail of it:

6 And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed
and will not be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary along with the anointed
one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation.

He will be attacked through war.

27 And the covenant will prevail for many, and it will return again and be re-built broad and long.

And at the consummation of times [even after seven years and seventy times and sixty-two times]
[until the time of the consummation of the war even desolation will be removed] [when the covenant prevails for many weeks].

And in half of the week the sacrifice and the libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desolations until the consummation of a season, and a consummation will be given for the desolation.”

Uhmm .. The Septuagint makes a lot of sense??

Here's a slightly different English translation of the Setuagint:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be destroyed, and there is no judgment in it. And it will destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the leader who is to come. And they will be cut off by a flood, and there will be annihilations to the finish of a shortened war.

27 And it will strengthen a covenant with many, one week, and by half of the week sacrifice and libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desolations even until a consummation, and a consummation will be given for the desolation.”

 

[Freedm]

@Freedm I've edited this post a lot since first posting it, because of it's importance. I wanted it to be 100% clear what I'm saying in this post.

By what you say, I think you may have the same common misunderstanding that sadly exists in almost the entire body of Christ, the Church.

"Given immortality" is a statement that expresses only half the truth. The other (most important) half is what I've underlined in the quote below:

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12

Only in the Word is life. (John 1:4).

Our immortality is in Christ, the Creator, who alone is immortal according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

Adam never had (and never would have had), and the sons of Adam never have had (and never will have) immortality and life in ourselves. It's only in Christ that we have immortality - Christ who alone is immortal, and who alone has (eternal) life in Himself (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26), and in whom alone is life (John 1:4).

Our immortality is still not and never will be in ourselves, any more than Adam's was when he believed the words "You shall not surely die."

There is no change after the resurrection from Adam's death (which is the first death, and which came via Adam to all men, because all sinned).

The idea that Adam and the sons of Adam (the creature) can never lose their immortality (will not die, no matter whose words they believe) is a lie from the beginning. Only God (our Creator) is immortal. Only the Creator has life in Himself. The Spirit breathes life. Our immortality is in Christ, not in ourselves.

The immortality that we put on, which is mentioned in 1 Cor.15:53-54, is Christ's immortality that we share in through His Spirit (the breath of God).

"You will not surely die" implies that the creature was given, or will be given immortality and life in himself, and it's a lie from the beginning.

By emphasizing only half the truth, most of the church has fed the saints, who are creature, a false narrative of "forever immortal because we (the creature) have been "given" immortality" (as in "You will not surely die"). It implies (falsely) that in the resurrection our (the creature, the sons of Adam's) immortality is going to exist in ourselves, in the creature, rather than alone in Christ, the Word in whom is life, through whom all things are created.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

The Word which says "You will surely die in the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" implies that we do not have immortality in ourselves, and thereby gives us the knowledge that we do not have (and can never have) life in ourselves. If we do not abide in that Word, then we will die. "You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

The resurrection of the body which we live in hope (blessed assurance) of, does not change this - and nowhere in scripture (not even in one verse where the words relating to the resurrection are found), is the resurrection referring to the spiritual birth (the spiritual quickening of our souls | spirits) - every single resurrection verse in the New Testament is talking about the resurrection of the body. To shorten this I won't put the list of verses up here.​

It sounds like you're saying, that as long as we are in Jesus, we have life, and therefore if we remain in Jesus forever, we have life forever, but if we leave Jesus, we leave (and lose) life. In other words, our life depends, and will continue to depend on Jesus. Does that sound right?

 

[Zao is life]

I just did a Google search and the following link was one of the results. Don't know if the link will be helpful to you or not. There are some other results as well, but I haven't checked any of them. What I searched on Google was this... Bible translation father of the coming age

Isaiah 9:6 – Father of the future age

FATHER OF THE IMPENDING AGE “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The powerful migh…

untotheages.wordpress.com

The English translation that I have of the Greek Septuagint of Isaiah 9:6-7:

because a child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder,
and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him.
His sovereignty is great, and his peace has no boundary upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom,
to make it prosper and to uphold it with righteousness and with judgment from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things.

I don't know where the people who have that site above or this other poster here get the wording father of the coming age from, because from my research, it's not in the Septuagint.

 

[Zao is life]

It sounds like you're saying, that as long as we are in Jesus, we have life, and therefore if we remain in Jesus forever, we have life forever, but if we leave Jesus, we leave (and lose) life. In other words, our life depends, and will continue to depend on Jesus. Does that sound right?

More than that. Eternal life is in Him alone. It's His Spirit in us that gives us eternal life.

It goes further. Satan released after a period of sabbath rest into the paradise so that Adam (mankind) can be tested (again), one last time. It's not wrapped up until it's wrapped up.

I'm not saying more. Jesus may have said more in the Revelation, at the close of chapter 20.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm not surprised you don't see the problem, but though you do not see the problem, most others will see the problem with removing the word everlasting from the title everlasting Father, and most will regard it as even more alarming when you do so in the context of your arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Your arrogance in this regard is palpable.

Tell us plainly now, since you claimed afterward that it's the wording in the translation of the scriptures that you use, which translation are you using? Does the translation have a name, and who translated it?

Good Lord, Here's a few...

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
His dominion will be great, and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness, from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given. And leadership is placed upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called: wonderful Counselor, mighty God, father of the future age, Prince of Peace.

 

[Zao is life]

Good Lord, Here's a few...

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
His dominion will be great, and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness, from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given. And leadership is placed upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called: wonderful Counselor, mighty God, father of the future age, Prince of Peace.

My goodness. Why did it take you sooooo long????

Which version did you quote from?

 

[Zao is life]

Good Lord, Here's a few...

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
His dominion will be great, and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness, from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a son is given. And leadership is placed upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called: wonderful Counselor, mighty God, father of the future age, Prince of Peace.

JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

(The Hebrew el-gibbor-Abi-ad means mighty God, everlasting Father)

Literal Standard Version
For a Child has been born to us, | A Son has been given to us, | And the dominion is on His shoulder, | And He calls His Name | Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, | Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Berean Standard Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New King James Version
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1995
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Legacy Standard Bible
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Amplified Bible
For to us a Child shall be born, to us a Son shall be given; And the government shall be upon His shoulder, And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on his shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Zao is life]

Majority Standard Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Bible
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.

NET Bible
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Revised Standard Version
For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

World English Bible
For a child is born to us. A son is given to us; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Early Modern
Geneva Bible of 1587
For vnto vs a childe is borne, and vnto vs a Sonne is giuen: and the gouernement is vpon his shoulder, and he shall call his name Wonderfull, Counseller, The mightie God, The euerlasting Father, The prince of peace,

Bishops' Bible of 1568
(9:5) For vnto vs a chylde is borne, and vnto vs a sonne is geuen, vpon his shoulder doth the rule lye, and he is called with his owne name wonderfull, the geuer of counsell, the mightie God, the euerlasting father, the prince of peace.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
For vnto us a childe shalbe borne, and vnto us a sonne shalbe geue. Vpo his shulder shal the kyngdome lye, and he shalbe called wt his owne name: The woderous geuer of councel, the mightie God, the euerlastinge father, the prynce of peace,

@Peterlag Do you suppose that the fact that the vast majority of Bibles use either everlasting Father or eternal Father, means that the vast majority of all the various teams of translators over a number of centuries, who have chosen to use the Masoretic text that the Jews also use, have believed everlasting Father or eternal Father would be an accurate translation,

means that if you quote from a version that is translated by a translator or translators that used sources other than the Masoretic text,

you should be professional enough, honest enough, and forthright enough, to mention which translation you are quoting from when you use words that remove the the meaning of everlasting (i.e from everlasting to everlasting) and replace it with father of the age to come?

If so, can you be so kind as to tell us which translation you were using and have been using?

If you don't answer, we all (except your friends who similarly might argue against the Trinity like you were doing) understand why you won't tell us which translation you were using.

 

[Freedm]

Are there physical bodies in sheol?

No. I don't believe Sheol is a physical place, just a state of being.

Most people think this body is all we are, and once returned to dust, we don't exist any more.

Because that's what the old testament tells us. God himself said "for dust you are and to dust you will return".

 

[Peterlag]

JPS (Jewish Publication Society) Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

(The Hebrew el-gibbor-Abi-ad means mighty God, everlasting Father)

Literal Standard Version
For a Child has been born to us, | A Son has been given to us, | And the dominion is on His shoulder, | And He calls His Name | Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, | Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Berean Standard Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

New King James Version
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1995
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Legacy Standard Bible
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Amplified Bible
For to us a Child shall be born, to us a Son shall be given; And the government shall be upon His shoulder, And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on his shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Looks like a lot of Translators got it wrong.