Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Zao is life]

Looks like a lot of Translators got it wrong.

.. and whoever translated whatever elusive unnamed version you were quoting from is one of the handful who got it right, like you.

Sure - and don't worry too much. There are many people out there who tend to live in their own fantasy world, like you seem to.

 

[Peterlag]

My goodness. Why did it take you sooooo long????

Which version did you quote from?

My point was this...
The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God” in most English Bibles. Actually “mighty god” would not be a bad translation if people realized that in the Hebrew language the word “god/God” (Elohim; also El) had a much wider range of application than it does in English. People familiar with Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God’s authority can be called “god.” Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. Hebrew only would have GOD, no matter if it referred to the Father or a person acting with divine authority. Thus, a better translation of Isaiah 9:6 for the English reader would be “mighty hero” or “divine hero.” Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. The phrase in Isaiah 9:6 that most English versions translate as “Mighty God” is el gibbor in the Hebrew. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used in Ezekiel 32:21 of “heroes” and mighty men. The NIV translates the phrase in Ezekiel as “mighty leaders” and the KJV and NASB translate it as “the strong among the mighty.” The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

There is no justification in the context of Isaiah 9 for believing that this verse refers to the Messiah as part of the Trinity. It refers to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those who were in anguish.” All war and death will cease, and “every boot of the tramping warrior… and the garments rolled in blood… will be fuel for the fire” (Isaiah 9:5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born” (Isaiah 9:6). There is no hint that this child will be “God” and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne. But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David” could. Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

 

[Zao is life]

My point was this...
The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God” in most English Bibles. Actually “mighty god” would not be a bad translation if people realized that in the Hebrew language the word “god/God” (Elohim; also El) had a much wider range of application than it does in English. People familiar with Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God’s authority can be called “god.” Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. Hebrew only would have GOD, no matter if it referred to the Father or a person acting with divine authority. Thus, a better translation of Isaiah 9:6 for the English reader would be “mighty hero” or “divine hero.” Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. The phrase in Isaiah 9:6 that most English versions translate as “Mighty God” is el gibbor in the Hebrew. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used in Ezekiel 32:21 of “heroes” and mighty men. The NIV translates the phrase in Ezekiel as “mighty leaders” and the KJV and NASB translate it as “the strong among the mighty.” The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

There is no justification in the context of Isaiah 9 for believing that this verse refers to the Messiah as part of the Trinity. It refers to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those who were in anguish.” All war and death will cease, and “every boot of the tramping warrior… and the garments rolled in blood… will be fuel for the fire” (Isaiah 9:5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born” (Isaiah 9:6). There is no hint that this child will be “God” and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne. But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David” could. Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

All the word salad in the world in the form of scholarly-sounding language full of false statements that begin with things like "There is no justification in the context of Isaiah 9.." and endless baseless arguments based only on personal assumptions,

will not make your assessment superior to the vast majority of (thousands) of Bible translators who translate His title as mighty God, everlasting Father - because many of those translators are Greek and Hebrew experts who probably have access to far more documentation and have tons better historical knowledge and understanding of the cultural background and linguistic usage in Old Testament books, than you and the few men you are able to quote.

So you may babel on, if you'll pardon the pun.​

 

[covenantee]

Looks like a lot of Translators got it wrong.

Thanks for the guffaw du jour.

What did you say is the name of your cult?

 

[Peterlag]

Thanks for the guffaw du jour.

What did you say is the name of your cult?

Well, it's not all that weird when you sit down and think about the Translators. I believe it would be safe to say that most if not all were from a trinity background.

 

[covenantee]

Well, it's not all that weird when you sit down and think about the Translators. I believe it would be safe to say that most if not all were from a trinity background.

Was there a gigantic trinity conspiracy among translators?

 

[Peterlag]

Was there a gigantic trinity conspiracy among translators?

Yep... it's called Catholics.

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[covenantee]

Yep... it's called Catholics.

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Ignatius referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Polycarp referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Theophilus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Tertullian referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Hippolytus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Origen referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.

All of these preceded the appearance of institutionalized Roman Catholicism by at least a century.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for the guffaw du jour.

What did you say is the name of your cult?

Cult is the correct word:

Yep... it's called Catholics.

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[Peterlag]

Ignatius referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Polycarp referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Theophilus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Tertullian referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Hippolytus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Origen referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.

All of these preceded the appearance of institutionalized Roman Catholicism by at least a century.

May I have the dates? Perhaps even their quote?

 

[Zao is life]

May I have the dates? Perhaps even their quote?

1. Ignatius a.d. 30–107
2. Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165
3. Ireneaus a.d. 120–202
4. Clement of Alexandria a.d. 153–217
5. Tertullian a.d. 145–220
6. Origen a.d. 185–254
7. Cyprian a.d. 200–258
8. Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 200–265
9. Novatian a.d. 210–280
10. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 273–326

-- FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA --- 325 A.D

11. Augustine of Hippo a.d. 354–430

You will find all their quotes on the Trinity and on other subjects at the very helpful site below:

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity - Apostles Creed

We can come to a clear understanding of the doctrine of the trinity in Christianity by reading what the early church fathers taught about God.

apostles-creed.org

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: Christ Begotten from Eternity - Apostles Creed

The doctrine of the Trinity has a core teaching that was taught by the early church. The early church taught that Christ was begotten before eternity.

apostles-creed.org

@Peterlag May we have the name of the version of the Bible that you use when you quote scripture please?

 

[covenantee]

1. Ignatius a.d. 30–107
2. Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165
3. Ireneaus a.d. 120–202
4. Clement of Alexandria a.d. 153–217
5. Tertullian a.d. 145–220
6. Origen a.d. 185–254
7. Cyprian a.d. 200–258
8. Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 200–265
9. Novatian a.d. 210–280
10. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 273–326

-- FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA --- 325 A.D

11. Augustine of Hippo a.d. 354–430

You will find all their quotes on the Trinity and on other subjects at the very helpful site below:

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity - Apostles Creed

We can come to a clear understanding of the doctrine of the trinity in Christianity by reading what the early church fathers taught about God.

apostles-creed.org

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: Christ Begotten from Eternity - Apostles Creed

The doctrine of the Trinity has a core teaching that was taught by the early church. The early church taught that Christ was begotten before eternity.

apostles-creed.org

@Peterlag May we have the name of the version of the Bible that you use when you quote scripture please?

Thanks bro.

 

[Peterlag]

1. Ignatius a.d. 30–107
2. Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165
3. Ireneaus a.d. 120–202
4. Clement of Alexandria a.d. 153–217
5. Tertullian a.d. 145–220
6. Origen a.d. 185–254
7. Cyprian a.d. 200–258
8. Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 200–265
9. Novatian a.d. 210–280
10. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria a.d. 273–326

-- FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA --- 325 A.D

11. Augustine of Hippo a.d. 354–430

You will find all their quotes on the Trinity and on other subjects at the very helpful site below:

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity - Apostles Creed

We can come to a clear understanding of the doctrine of the trinity in Christianity by reading what the early church fathers taught about God.

apostles-creed.org

Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: Christ Begotten from Eternity - Apostles Creed

The doctrine of the Trinity has a core teaching that was taught by the early church. The early church taught that Christ was begotten before eternity.

apostles-creed.org

@Peterlag May we have the name of the version of the Bible that you use when you quote scripture please?

The Catholics were around for all of these guys. They were just not big and popular yet, but they were around. I once read somewhere that historians found letters and even holy water as far back as the year 80 AD. The roots even before the Catholics can probably be traced back to the pagans like everything else the Catholics are about. And I'm a King James guy, but do look at other versions to get a better take on a verse. For an example I love the way the NIV handles 2 Corinthians 5:17. Same meaning but the NIV just nails it...

King James Bible
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

New International Version
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[covenantee]

The Catholics were around for all of these guys.

If you can't provide credible evidence of who they were or what they believed, then your claim is irrelevant.

None of the early church fathers spoke of "Catholics being around".

 

[Peterlag]

If you can't provide credible evidence of who they were or what they believed, then your claim is irrelevant.

None of the early church fathers spoke of "Catholics being around".

Who are the church fathers? Are they not the Catholics? Was Ignatius (35-107) the first-known person to use the word Catholic?

The word catholic (derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the ancient Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos) 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou) 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά (kata) 'about' and ὅλος (holos) 'whole'.[5][6] The first known use of "Catholic" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).[7] In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

Catholic (term) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The historical fathers of Jesus the Christ church, not the Roman empire's religion, are the 12 Apostles and Paul, and those they appointed as pastors, elders, deacons and teachers whom were called of God .

The Protestant Reformation leaders were not Christ's church fathers either but rather private interpreters, murders ,ect & sinners,seeking their own to break away from catholicism, which is not Christ's church..

These sorts have tried to divide Christ's church and body.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Who are the church fathers? Are they not the Catholics? Was Ignatius (35-107) the first-known person to use the word Catholic?

The word catholic (derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the ancient Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos) 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou) 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά (kata) 'about' and ὅλος (holos) 'whole'.[5][6] The first known use of "Catholic" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).[7] In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

Catholic (term) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I rated your post with the laughing emoji because you're schooling supposed Catholics.

Good on ya, mate.

 

[covenantee]

Who are the church fathers? Are they not the Catholics? Was Ignatius (35-107) the first-known person to use the word Catholic?

The word catholic (derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the ancient Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos) 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou) 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά (kata) 'about' and ὅλος (holos) 'whole'.[5][6] The first known use of "Catholic" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).[7] In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

Catholic (term) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Are you Catholic ?

 

[covenantee]

Are you Catholic ?

No.