Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Davy]

No one is defending Israel at Armageddon. Where does the AC rule from during the trib? Israel. The AC comes in peacefully. There is no war like invasion, and by the time of Armageddon the AC had ruled the world from Israel for 42 months.

There will be a final battle on the last day of this world with that northern army alignment coming upon Israel. You simply are not yet understanding who all that prophetic Israel includes. It is not just about the small nation called Israel in the middle east.

 

[covenantee]

Total misconception of the testimony of Apostle Paul in context from Romans chapter 9 to chapter 11. He expresses as like going through 'birth pangs', when he reflects about his 'kinsmen', the descendant of Jacob/Israel, Israelites. Ones, who are hostile and heart-harden to the saving power of the Gospel, and are not saved.

In Romans chapter 11, he starts of by witnessing to the Gentile church, 'has GOD rejected HIS people?' And. verse 2, he continues, 'GOD has not rejected HIS people whom HE foreknew.'

Verse 11, 'So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fail? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, .......' Verse 16, 'If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.'

Next verses, he uses the parables about a 'cultivated olive tree and branches', that is the true descendants of Jacob/Israel. And, 'cut wild olive tree branches', that are the Gentiles. To some of the branches of Israel have been cut off, and branches of the Gentiles have been grafted in.

But, down the line, he also warns Gentile believers, as grafted branches, that they can be cut off too due to unfruitfullness. And, GOD is able to graft back again the initial olive tree branches HE have cut before, back into their places. (Verse 17-24)

Verse 25-32, He concludes, also cautioning the Gentile believers to mindful of the reason and purpose of GOD, why the remaining Israel rejected the Gospel. The mystery he reveals, 'a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, .....'

'As regards the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and calling of GOD are irrevocable.'

'For just as you were at one time disobedient to GOD but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For GOD has consigned all to disobedience. that HE may have mercy on all.'

- all Israel will be saved - meaning, all the descendants of Jacob/Israel will be saved in the end.

Furthermore, points to ponder on - Why GOD have to send the two witnesses back to Israel when HE have rejected them, during the reign of anti-CHRIST?

And, during Armageddon, when the forces of the world joined together to completely destroy Israel for their good. Therefore, why Jesus have to descend with His angels from Heaven to defend Israel on that day? Even to the point to disintegrate the very enemy forces bodies from where they stand?

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

This may help. See if anything at this Study light page sounds familiar.

Romans 11:25 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org

Romans 11:25 - For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

 

[Peterlag]

Where did you get it?

Hint: Post 726

You should remember what you post.

The doctrine of the new covenant starts in Romans. What you post about blood in Matthew makes no sense unless you are Catholic. You may say you're not Catholic but you believe everything they do.

 

[Peterlag]

Was His Blood irrelevant?

You make no sense. The spirit was not given until after Jesus left the earth. It was in the making in Matthew but was not given yet. If a car is being built and they only have the tires ready. That does not mean the car has been given or ready to be sold. And a guy like you would ask are the tires irrelevant?

 

[Zao is life]

Total misconception of the testimony of Apostle Paul in context from Romans chapter 9 to chapter 11. He expresses as like going through 'birth pangs', when he reflects about his 'kinsmen', the descendant of Jacob/Israel, Israelites. Ones, who are hostile and heart-harden to the saving power of the Gospel, and are not saved.

In Romans chapter 11, he starts of by witnessing to the Gentile church, 'has GOD rejected HIS people?' And. verse 2, he continues, 'GOD has not rejected HIS people whom HE foreknew.'

That's right. Israel as the elect of God continued in the remnant. That's what my OP says.

Verse 11, 'So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fail? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, .......' Verse 16, 'If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.'

Next verses, he uses the parables about a 'cultivated olive tree and branches', that is the true descendants of Jacob/Israel. And, 'cut wild olive tree branches', that are the Gentiles. To some of the branches of Israel have been cut off, and branches of the Gentiles have been grafted in.

But, down the line, he also warns Gentile believers, as grafted branches, that they can be cut off too due to unfruitfullness. And, GOD is able to graft back again the initial olive tree branches HE have cut before, back into their places. (Verse 17-24)

All of that agrees with my OP.

The elect nation - "His people whom He foreknew" - continued because of the Jewish remnant of the elect. Gentiles who believe are grafted in among that remnant. Together as one they make up a new temple in Christ. There has been no replacement.

To claim that just because in the days of the new covenant, Israel is also the new temple in Christ (a.k.a the church), saying that the church = Israel is 'Replacement Theology', is a false claim to make.

Verse 25-32, He concludes, also cautioning the Gentile believers to mindful of the reason and purpose of GOD, why the remaining Israel rejected the Gospel. The mystery he reveals, 'a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And in this way all Israel will be saved, .....'

The questions you need to ask at this point is,

1. How is even one member of Israel saved? Why? By whom or through whom are they saved?

2. Who takes away sins as per verse 27? Who established a new covenant in His blood?

3. What is "the gospel" mentioned in verse 28?

4. What does verse 23 say that any unbelieving child of Israel who is a child by birth needs to do in order to be saved?

5. The sin taken away as per verse 27 - is this referring to the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ, or is there another time sin will be taken away?

6. Is the process of Jews repenting of their unbelief and being grafted back into their own Olive tree as in verses 23-24 a process that has not begun yet?

7. If the process as in question 6 has already begun, when did it begin?

8. What does Paul mean by "all Israel" in the context of what he was saying about the remnant of the elect nation (Israel), Gentiles who believe being grafted in among the remnant, and any unbelieving Jewish person repenting of unbelief being grafted back into his own Olive tree again?

9. Finally, does the above process lie only in the future?

 

[covenantee]

The doctrine of the new covenant starts in Romans. What you post about blood in Matthew makes no sense unless you are Catholic. You may say you're not Catholic but you believe everything they do.

So you still believe that Jesus was joking when He said "For this is My Blood of the New Covenant..."

Jesus wasn't Catholic.

 

[Philip James]

I agree, but perhaps the question is were the disciples able to enter into that covenant at that very moment it was offered?

yes, except for the one who didn't believe...

A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Alma Redemptoris Mater

 

[Philip James]

the Christ administration officially ended

Never. Christ's 'administration' and His Kingdom are eternal...

 

[Philip James]

That logic is not concrete. I can invite you to my wedding right now, and you can except right now, but you can’t enjoy the party until the day of my wedding.

psst... that was the day that God wed His people Israel as He promised He would do..

What Grace, what Love, what Mercy, that the gentiles were welcomed into that union!

Alma Redemptoris Mater

 

[Timtofly]

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I'm a sheep.

You refuse to declare that you're a sheep.

What's the problem?

The sheep are ethnic Jacob. Are you ethnic Jacob? Are you the lost sheep of the ten tribes Israel? Are you part of the one third remnant that is alive at the Second Coming? Or are you the church, the bride of Christ? Every reference to sheep is figurative of Israel. I have no idea if I am a physical descendant of Jacob. Gentiles are not sheep nor goats. They are not goats who become sheep. You have the wrong symbolic point of reference. You have hijacked God's Word with human theology not of God's Word.

You deny that Jesus is even sitting on a throne in Jerusalem and that this judgment takes place after the Second Coming. Why are you still lost and on earth after the Second Coming? There is this point Paul made that those in Christ are caught up at the Second Coming. Why did you not get caught up when the Second Coming happened? Why are you stuck on earth waiting to stand before Jesus in judgment in Jerusalem?

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"

Did you cut this verse out of Matthew 25, and just skip to verse 32?

 

[Timtofly]

So you are saying God changed from being a bad ass warrior to something we can slap around. There is even a guy in the gospels who dropped dead for saying the wrong word and not giving God the glory. Or does that not matter either because it was before Jesus was resurrected?

You have a weird definition of God the creator. God must be able to slap Himself in your reality. Even disobedience is part of creation. Take it up with God, if you do not understand reality.

Your objection then must be that humans are the ones who redeemed themselves, because they were the sole means of that redemption.

 

[PinSeeker]

The 12 tribes sounds a little Jewish to me.

Sure. But there are Jews outwardly (ethnically) and Jews inwardly (of the Holy Spirit), and any one of the former may not be the latter. Paul is crystal clear on this in several of his letters (Romans, Galatians, Colossians in particular).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

The sheep are ethnic Jacob.

The sheep are not "ethnic Jacob". That is complete racist rubbish.

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The sheep are His brethren of all nations, both those who have ministered, and those to whom they have ministered.

Jesus identifies His brethren:

Matthew 12
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Stop trying to contort Christ into a racist.

 

[Timtofly]

No. I don't believe Sheol is a physical place, just a state of being.


Because that's what the old testament tells us. God himself said "for dust you are and to dust you will return".

So another being leaves you when you return to dust because all you are is a physical body of dust? Who is this other being if you cease to exist?

You are soul, body, and spirit. Certainly your soul and spirit does not return to dust?? They were never dust to begin with. God is not made of dust, but Jesus had a dust body, if that is where you think the physical comes from, dust.

 

[Peterlag]

You have a weird definition of God the creator. God must be able to slap Himself in your reality. Even disobedience is part of creation. Take it up with God, if you do not understand reality.

Your objection then must be that humans are the ones who redeemed themselves, because they were the sole means of that redemption.

Actually yes... Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[Peterlag]

Never. Christ's 'administration' and His Kingdom are eternal...

Holy Smokes... I guess if you wipe out the Messiah you can have no time periods in the Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

So you still believe that Jesus was joking when He said "For this is My Blood of the New Covenant..."

Jesus wasn't Catholic.

That does not mean the new covenant was started. I could say this is my new car. But I don't drive it until they are done building it and make it available for me to have it. And the blood was not the start of the new covenant. It is the spirit that started the new covenant and Jesus did not send the spirit until after he left the planet. We are not born again of blood. We are born again of spirit. It's not about did Jesus lie. It's about the lie you believe.

 

[covenantee]

That does not mean the new covenant was started.

It certainly does.

"For this is My Blood of the New Covenant..."

No New Covenant?

No Blood.

 

[Timtofly]

The sheep are not "ethnic Jacob". That is complete racist rubbish.

Matthew 25
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The sheep are His brethren of all nations, both those who have ministered, and those to whom they have ministered.

Jesus identifies His brethren:

Matthew 12
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Stop trying to contort Christ into a racist.

That is not racist. The lost tribes of Israel have been scattered throughout the nations for the last 2700 years. You are the one claiming God cannot keep track of His chosen people since 720BC.

Do you think the church got lost among all the nations for 2700 years?

Only racist bring up racism in a discussion. I have no problem with God calling the descendants of Jacob, Israel. Do you? Should they be called Jacobites to avoid your racist comments?

The sheep are His brethren from all nations. You said it, not me. So calling the sheep, the lost tribes of Israel should not be an issue to you.

The sheep are His brethren of all nations