Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Peterlag]

No one mentioned two wills except you as an excuse why it was impossible for God to carry out His plan and will. Only one will and 6 aspects centered on the will of God.

You claim Jesus is a seperate creation. No, Jesus is God as the firstborn human. Not the first created human seperate from God.

John 1 points out Jesus was both God and human.

I think 1 times 1 is still 1. You are still adding 1 plus something different as another 1 to get 2. God was multiplied in human flesh, not added to human flesh.

You would have to have two wills for all kinds of stuff like not my will but yours.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

What other being? God never said "you are dust plus another being". He said "you are dust". That's it.

You're assuming you have a "spirit" and whatever you think a "soul" is, but that's not what God told us. He said "you are dust".

That's not true.
We are made of dust. God's breath makes us a living soul.

If you think we are only dust, you are deeply mistaken.

 

[Freedm]

No, you said humans are only dust. Paul said: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

You are going by what God told Adam after physically dying and living in the corruption of dead flesh. It is dead flesh that:

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

You are fixated on Adam's dead corruptible flesh that cannot even enter heaven. You claim all you are is dead corruptible dust. You should accept that you are more than Adam's disobedience. If you remain in Adam's dead state, you will only stand as the dead and be cast into the LOF per Revelation 20:12-15.

This is the difference between a body of dust, and God's permanent incorruptible physical body: 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (dust) were dissolved (returned to dust), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Adam's dead flesh is temporary like a tent. God's physical body that Adam had before he disobeyed God, is that building, permanent from God. Dust just refers to the basic atoms of creation. God can sustain His creation as permanent or as in a state of death and decay.

And how do you explain the difference between "spirit" and "soul"?

 

[Freedm]

That's not true.
We are made of dust. God's breath makes us a living soul.

If you think we are only dust, you are deeply mistaken.

I literally quoted scripture, and you say it's not true. What other parts of scripture do you think are not true?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

I literally quoted scripture, and you say it's not true. What other parts of scripture do you think are not true?

You did not "literally" quote God the Creator. You chose to find a passage you think sustains your claim.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (King James Version, hereafter cited as KJV)

...and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it. (New Revised Standard Version, hereafter cited as NRSV)

...and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it. (New English Translation, hereafter cited as NET)

Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Genesis 7:22
Job 33:4 and Isaiah 42:5

 

[covenantee]

Time is your only problem here. You have (it seems) never been taught to watch your time. The time that Jesus made that statement is not the same time that anyone received the spirit because Christianity was not yet born. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The time tense of "is" is present.

There's no "time problem", or any other problem. Jesus is speaking in the present tense, reflecting present reality at that time. He offered His New Covenant to His disciples. As both the Testator and the Heir of His New Covenant, He had every right to do so.

John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus later bestowed the Holy Spirit upon His disciples. He did not offer His New Covenant to His disciples, because He had already done so previously, in Matthew 26:28. Contrary to your claim, they had not had to wait for the Holy Spirit before they could receive the New Covenant. They already had it.

The only problem and confusion are in your imagination.

 

[Peterlag]

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The time tense of "is" is present.

There's no "time problem", or any other problem. Jesus is speaking in the present tense, reflecting present reality at that time. He offered His New Covenant to His disciples. As both the Testator and the Heir of His New Covenant, He had every right to do so.

John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus later bestowed the Holy Spirit upon His disciples. He did not offer His New Covenant to His disciples, because He had already done so previously, in Matthew 26:28. Contrary to your claim, they had not had to wait for the Holy Spirit before they could receive the New Covenant. They already had it.

The only problem and confusion are in your imagination.

Again, we do not get filled with the blood that Jesus had when he was here on the Earth. That was his blood then, but nobody received the remission of sins until Acts chapter 2. So yeah there was no new covenant offered until Acts. So I don't know what verse says Jesus offered his new covenant to anyone and they received it that very hour. They only received instructions to receive the spirit which did not happen until later (time) Acts 2.

 

[covenantee]

Do you think that the disciples refused the New Covenant that Jesus offered them?

 

[ewq1938]

And how do you explain the difference between "spirit" and "soul"?

There is no difference between them aside from their names.

 

[Zao is life]

There is no difference between them aside from their names.

I agree. In the New Testament the Greek word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction (which is consistent throughout the New Testament) between the body (soma) and the soul.

Examples where the word is used in reference to the life are Matthew 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; and examples where the word is used in reference to the mind are Philippians 1:27 and Hebrews 12;

and examples where the word is used in reference to the soul are Matthew 10:28a and 12:18, where the word for "soul" is a quote from Isaiah 42:1:

"Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul [Hebrew: nephesh] delights. I have put My Spirit [Hebrew: rûach] on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations."

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." -- John 3:8

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life [nephesh chay], and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." - Genesis 1:20

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life [nephesh chay], I have given every green herb for food: and it was so." - Genesis 1:30

I don't see how the soul of Adam only came into being when God breathed His breath of life into Adam, because we are born into the world as body and soul humans, but we do not have everlasting life until we are born of the Spirit, and even animals are said in Genesis to have been created with souls.

So the difference for Adam's soul before and after God breathed (Spirit of God, eternal life) into Adam is between living soul and LIVING soul (with the eternal life) that is from the breath of God.

Luke 23:46
"And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit [pneuma]. And when He had said this, He breathed His last."

Acts 7:59
"And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [pneuma]."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psychḗ] and body [soma] be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul [psychḗ] and spirit [pneuma], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."​

 

[Peterlag]

Do you think that the disciples refused the New Covenant that Jesus offered them?

May I have the verse where Jesus gave someone a New Covenant and it says they received it while he was still on the Earth?

 

[rwb]

There is no difference between them aside from their names.

I agree the two are related, however the spirit is within, and a living soul is what mankind became when breath came into our body through spirit within.

 

[rwb]

I agree. In the New Testament the Greek word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction (which is consistent throughout the New Testament) between the body (soma) and the soul.

Examples where the word is used in reference to the life are Matthew 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; and examples where the word is used in reference to the mind are Philippians 1:27 and Hebrews 12;

and examples where the word is used in reference to the soul are Matthew 10:28a and 12:18, where the word for "soul" is a quote from Isaiah 42:1:

"Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul [Hebrew: nephesh] delights. I have put My Spirit [Hebrew: rûach] on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations."

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." -- John 3:8

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life [nephesh chay], and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." - Genesis 1:20

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life [nephesh chay], I have given every green herb for food: and it was so." - Genesis 1:30

I don't see how the soul of Adam only came into being when God breathed His breath of life into Adam, because we are born into the world as body and soul humans, but we do not have everlasting life until we are born of the Spirit, and even animals are said in Genesis to have been created with souls.

So the difference for Adam's soul before and after God breathed (Spirit of God, eternal life) into Adam is between living soul and LIVING soul (with the eternal life) that is from the breath of God.

Luke 23:46
"And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit [pneuma]. And when He had said this, He breathed His last."

Acts 7:59
"And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [pneuma]."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psychḗ] and body [soma] be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul [psychḗ] and spirit [pneuma], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."​

This is why we become so confused between spirit and soul. A soul is what mankind is as long as there is life. That life in humans is both eternal spiritual life we have when the Holy Spirit is within us after we physically die, and physical life we have as long as our body has breath. Both are "living souls" and why John writes he sees souls alive after physical death to prove that physical death is not the end of spiritual life for all who physically die IN Christ.

 

[covenantee]

May I have the verse where Jesus gave someone a New Covenant and it says they received it while he was still on the Earth?

So you believe that the disciples refused the New Covenant that Jesus offered them.

May I have the verse that says that they refused Him?

Then may I have the verse where they finally accepted His New Covenant?

 

[Peterlag]

So you believe that the disciples refused the New Covenant that Jesus offered them.

May I have the verse that says that they refused Him?

Then may I have the verse where they finally accepted His New Covenant?

The reason why there's no verse of anyone refusing the new covenant from Jesus is because no covenant was offered by Jesus. They accepted the new birth when they received the spirit which I keep telling you is in Acts 2:1-4

 

[covenantee]

The reason why there's no verse of anyone refusing the new covenant from Jesus is because no covenant was offered by Jesus. They accepted the new birth when they received the spirit which I keep telling you is in Acts 2:1-4

The disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20:21,22; not in Acts 2:1-4.

May I have the verse that says that they did not receive the New Covenant until after John 20:21,22?

 

[Peterlag]

The disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20:21,22; not in Acts 2:1-4.

May I have the verse that says that they did not receive the New Covenant until after John 20:21,22?

That was instructions to receive the spirit which would be offered later. You think when Jesus said you need to receive this thing that they received it right there and then before it was available. If that's the case. Then why go to the party in Acts chapter 2:4?

 

[covenantee]

That was instructions to receive the spirit which would be offered later. You think when Jesus said you need to receive this thing that they received it right there and then before it was available. If that's the case. Then why go to the party in Acts chapter 2:4?

Thanks for the guffaw du jour.

 

[Peterlag]

Thanks for the guffaw du jour.

You guys need to learn how to watch your "time" and "to whom it is addressed."
Two good reads for this are...

How to Enjoy the Bible
by: E. W. Bullinger

And this online paper... www.carb-fat.com/jesus.html

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. In the New Testament the Greek word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction (which is consistent throughout the New Testament) between the body (soma) and the soul.
​

This is long but you might en

There is no difference between the soul and spirit except the two names being different. Otherwise, they are identical:

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled", and in John 13:21 it says, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma)"

Here spirit and soul are used interchangeably. He was troubled in his soul, and he was troubled in his spirit.


Genesis 35:18 (KJV)
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26 (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Here they are used also interchangeably since the body is dead when the soul departs and the body is also dead when the spirit departs.


Soul and Spirit are defined the same in both Hebrew and Greek, and even English. They are synonyms.


English:

soul (sol) noun
1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade....
5. A human being: "the homes of some nine hundred souls" (Garrison Keillor).
6. The central or integral part; the vital core: "It saddens me that this network . . . may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news" (M. Kalb).

spir·it (spîr¹ît) noun
1. a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness....
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
6. a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group.
7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.(11)

Take note that within the definition of SOUL that the word SPIRIT is used and in the definition of SPIRIT that the word SOUL is used. The spirit is a soul and the soul is a spirit! How's that for a full circle!

BDB dictionary Hebrew:

SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions


SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and called mind, desire, and emotion.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Same basic things just written using a little different terminology.

Greek:

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. Notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b).

Greek:

Strong's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):



Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


"Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both."


Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Unfortunately scripture doesn't provide any reasoning why the two have their own names or why we need two of something that is essentially two of the same thing with no provided differences between them. It's kind of like having a two headed coin, the same on both sides yet one side is not the other side technically.


***********************



And the soul and spirit are two distinct things but are two identical distinct things is what I am saying. In other words, scripture and language dictionaries, and various experts in the languages ascribe the same attributes to each. Take our lungs. We have two and they are distinct, but they are identical in form and function. For some reason it is important and needed to have two of these invisible parts of who we are that are identical in function in a non-physical sense.


Job_7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.


Job_10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.


I will speak in the anguish of my spirit - I will speak in the bitterness of my soul


There's no real difference here. He is troubled, worried and afraid because of what has happened to him and what is happening to him as well as what will happen to him in the future and he experiences all this in both his soul and spirit.

**********************************

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



Note that three sets of things are listed here as being things that the Word of God can "divide asunder" or separate from one another. This means each set of two are merged together as one but have separate characteristics.



1: soul and spirit

2: joints and marrow

3: thoughts and intents of the heart (which is the mind)