Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The church has been in Paradise since Resurrection Sunday, when Jesus presented the firstfruits of the church to God, when He ascended after talking to Mary.
How long O Lord
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Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
If the church is in Paradise, after Christ resurrection, why in the world would the church be told to repent.
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Who the heck repents while in paradise?
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It has not been answered, because we still don't know the timing of the answer. They were told to wait. They were not told when they would be avenged nor the symbolism of what would be done. We can assume the vengeance is the winepress of God's wrath. We still do not know when that will happen.
It has not happened, and the question is still relevant in the future.
You base the timing on the question. That is not even the point of the 5th Seal.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You have no answer for their question, thus you change the question. Please tell us when their answer will even be given.
I don't know when the winepress of God's vengeance is going to be poured out. Do you know the exact time and date?
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
So you say you know exactly when that will happen?
If the answer to the question asked in Revelation 6:10 changes over time then the vision John saw and recorded took place at a specific point in time, prior to the writing of Revelation. If the answer to the questions would be the same if asked today then “little season” has absolutely no meaning.
Their answer was given after they asked the question and it was relevant to them. That answer is recorded for us in Revelation 6:11 and I believe it is 100% accurate.
Luke 21:22 says these are the days of vengeance, which happened in the first century when Jerusalem was sacked.
Marty, have you ever considered the vision in Rev 6 is a continuation of the vision John was given beginning in chapter 4?
Marty,
The four horses IMO are the same horses we read of in Zechariah. But the message is now changed instead of bringing a message of peace, the horses are sent out to fulfill the prophecy of Haggai. Zechariah writes they were sent by God to walk back and forth upon the earth. The report from the angel of the LORD then was that the earth sits still and is at rest. The four horses of the Revelation are sent not to find a world in stillness and rest, but are sent to bring judgment upon the earth.
Zechariah 1:8-11 (KJV) I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white. Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Haggai 2:20-23 (KJV) And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.
In an effort to keep this from becoming a book, I'll stop here, so I can know if you've come to similar conclusions.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Read 2 Corinthians 5 and you will see the church is gathering in Paradise, because of the Cross. Those in Christ are only ambassadors on earth; representing that kingdom in Paradise.
Some are good ambassadors. Some are lukewarm ambassadors. Some are horrible ambassadors. The responsibility of the church is the time spent on earth. Paradise is the retirement package.
Those "under the alter" symbolize the church in Paradise. They have all shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh as their testimony to God.
Hebrews 11:13-16
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
That country is Paradise, the heavenly place prepared for the church. But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body. All the OT redeemed were the firstfruits of the church. They were made alive at the Cross, per the order Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. They are the firstfruits of the NT church in the part: Christ the firstfruits. All in Christ since the Cross enter Paradise. Then at the Second Coming, those alive on the earth will join them. That is when the robe of white is put on. That is the glorification of the church. That is the whole and only point of the 5th Seal.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The question has not even been asked yet. The question is "how long?".
Have you ever asked God, how much longer must God allow humanity to suffer under Adam's punishment? This is a common rhetorical question in Scripture, no?
God did answer the question in Exodus 20:9.
"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:"
That does not mean they will not ask that question as a group when the 5th Seal is opened.
Most of the discussions in this forum center around the timing of the end of sin, no? That is the thrust of eschatology.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
John saw what happened in the future. Revelation is not a history lesson of the first century.
The 4th Seal has not been opened, much less the 5th Seal. They are still future events even to us posting in this forum today. The "little season" will not even be a definitive answer when given. Obviously no one even agrees on the length of the term "little season".
Alright, then can you explain why you yourself would ask “how long” when you know what the answer will be? Do you disbelieve the answer given in Revelation 6:11?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Obviously the question and answer was part of this future event.
Luke 21 is not about this future event. Nothing in 70AD removed all of humanity from the sin and death placed on mankind because of Adam's disobedience.
Wrong vengeance. The 5th Seal is not about personal revenge for someone mistreating you. You are missing the whole point of being slain and the alter. This alter is symbolic of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Jesus was not a martyr nor sought personal revenge against humanity for causing the need for a Cross to begin with. God would have to avenge and punish Himself, since the Lamb was slain prior to creation, so creation was not involved at all. But you all seem to take it out personally on that first century generation.
The alter in Revelation 6 was not a first century center piece. The alter was symbolic of what happened to the Lamb at the foundation of the world. Those slain symbolize the entire redeemed church since Abel to the Second Coming.
However it is implied that Abel was the first to be slain on a physical alter, like a lot of priest up until the time of Christ. But even the avenge on the blood of those martyred is not the point of that heavenly scene and heavenly alter. The 5th Seal is about the redemption out of Adam's dead flesh, and the revenge placed on those who want that dead flesh more than the redemption of the Cross.
Luke 21 was Jesus talking to everyone in the temple on that day. None of it was the private conversation with His disciples on the mount of Olives.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The end of Adam's punishment.
Many think Daniel 9:24 has been accomplished.
Yet we are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Don't you want to know the exact moment that happens?
I don’t need to know the exact moment of many things. I don’t need to know the exact moment in time that Jesus died on the cross, as you know there are people who think 30AD and others think 33AD but pin pointing the exact moment doesn’t change the fact that He did die for our sins.
You have a problem when you put the fifth seal question being asked in the future. And that problem is that we currently know the answer, we have this knowledge. It makes no sense to ask a question that you already know the answer to.
Again are you planning on asking Jesus questions like where were you born or what was your mother’s name? You apparently are unable to tell us why you personally would do such a thing.
I previously posted why I think the 2nd seal is referring to Jesus, so I’m going to share what I’m thinking the 3rd and 4th seals are.
3rd seal: Revelation 6:5-6
First thing I see is that the rider carries a balance, no other action taken by the rider is implied. There is a voice that simply declares A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
John 5:22 shows that judgment has been committed to the Son. This would certainly fit the balances in the rider’s hands.
The rest of the third seal is a declaration of a voice which could be literal or figurative. I think a figurative view fits best here.
The wheat can certainly be viewed as believers as in Matthew 13:30 at the time of harvest the wheat is gathered into his barn but the tares are burned.
The spiritual meaning of oil is usually associated with the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 1:9 Christ is anointed by God with the oil of gladness.
Ok, now for the spiritual meaning of barley (there is no real consensus on this one). I think the spiritual meaning of barley is sin and specifically sin that is remembered before God. In Numbers 5:15 the offering of barley meal is a memorial and brings into remembrance iniquity. In John 6:35 Jesus states that he is the bread of life and in verse 51 it states if any man eat this bread he shall live forever. In John 6:9-13 when Jesus feeds the 5,000 with 5 barley loaves it is a picture of believers eating the bread of life. I think the reason barley loaves are used is because the bread of life, which is Jesus, will take on the very sins that should have been remembered on us.
There also is no real consensus of the spiritual meaning of wine. In Revelation 14:10 those who worship the beast will drink of the wine of the wrath of God. I think in Revelation the spiritual meaning of wine is wrath that is administered.
So if wheat represents believers and barley represents sin that is remembered or unbelievers then these are weighed in the balance which shows a price must be paid for these.
If the oil is the Holy Spirit and the wine is wrath then these two must not be hurt.
Jesus prays in Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. We know from Isaiah 53:5 that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. We also know that after he was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon him in Matthew 3:16. When Jesus cried out my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me; the Holy Spirit is no longer with him at that time. The Holy Spirit is not hurt or wounded with Jesus. The cup or price that must be paid for the wheat is asked to be removed. The answer or Gods will would be that he must die alone, without the Holy Spirt (oil not being hurt) and what was written in the scriptures must be fulfilled (wine not being hurt). The answer to Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 could very well be the voice in Revelation 6:6.
4th seal: Revelation 6:7-8
In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 wages of sin is death. Christ became death when He became sin for us. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (hell Strong’s #86), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ.
And power was given them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth. Here we see the 3/4 and 1/4 ratio that was seen at the third seal, 1/4 = wheat and 3/4 = barley.
I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end, despite Jesus conquering death at the cross. This lines up with the next seal where those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
3rd seal: Revelation 6:5-6
First thing I see is that the rider carries a balance, no other action taken by the rider is implied. There is a voice that simply declares A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
John 5:22 shows that judgment has been committed to the Son. This would certainly fit the balances in the rider’s hands.
The rest of the third seal is a declaration of a voice which could be literal or figurative. I think a figurative view fits best here.
The wheat can certainly be viewed as believers as in Matthew 13:30 at the time of harvest the wheat is gathered into his barn but the tares are burned.
The spiritual meaning of oil is usually associated with the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 1:9 Christ is anointed by God with the oil of gladness.
Ok, now for the spiritual meaning of barley (there is no real consensus on this one). I think the spiritual meaning of barley is sin and specifically sin that is remembered before God. In Numbers 5:15 the offering of barley meal is a memorial and brings into remembrance iniquity. In John 6:35 Jesus states that he is the bread of life and in verse 51 it states if any man eat this bread he shall live forever. In John 6:9-13 when Jesus feeds the 5,000 with 5 barley loaves it is a picture of believers eating the bread of life. I think the reason barley loaves are used is because the bread of life, which is Jesus, will take on the very sins that should have been remembered on us.
There also is no real consensus of the spiritual meaning of wine. In Revelation 14:10 those who worship the beast will drink of the wine of the wrath of God. I think in Revelation the spiritual meaning of wine is wrath that is administered.
So if wheat represents believers and barley represents sin that is remembered or unbelievers then these are weighed in the balance which shows a price must be paid for these.
If the oil is the Holy Spirit and the wine is wrath then these two must not be hurt.
Jesus prays in Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. We know from Isaiah 53:5 that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. We also know that after he was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon him in Matthew 3:16. When Jesus cried out my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me; the Holy Spirit is no longer with him at that time. The Holy Spirit is not hurt or wounded with Jesus. The cup or price that must be paid for the wheat is asked to be removed. The answer or Gods will would be that he must die alone, without the Holy Spirt (oil not being hurt) and what was written in the scriptures must be fulfilled (wine not being hurt). The answer to Jesus’s prayer in Luke 22:42 could very well be the voice in Revelation 6:6.
4th seal: Revelation 6:7-8
In 2 Corinthians 5:21 Christ became sin for us and in Romans 6:23 wages of sin is death. Christ became death when He became sin for us. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 “O death where is thy sting? O grave (hell Strong’s #86), where is thy victory? ”. Hell follows with death in that they are both conquered or overcome by Christ.
And power was given them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth. Here we see the 3/4 and 1/4 ratio that was seen at the third seal, 1/4 = wheat and 3/4 = barley.
I think this statement is simply reiterating the fact that physical acts against believers will continue until the end, despite Jesus conquering death at the cross. This lines up with the next seal where those who were killed are told to rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
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