How long O Lord

[grafted branch]

I believe that it was famine the Jews were arrogant and burned their own food stock during the Roman siege to show the Roman’s that they weren’t afraid of them because God would save them.

I know Josephus has something in his writings that people use to refer to the third seal but I’m just not personally convinced that it can refer to a literal famine.

The studying that I’ve done leads me to believe that the first four seals are talking about Jesus. For example in Luke 12:51-53 Jesus says he came not to bring peace but division which matches the second seal.

 

[Timtofly]

Which argument is still not really what that 5th Seal response in Rev.6:11 is about.

What we are to grasp from The LORD's answer in that 11th verse is about the delivering up of some of His servants at the very end of this world, to give a Testimony for Him, and they are killed for that Testimony. Jesus gave details of that event for the end of this world elsewhere, so that 11th verse subject should NOT be ISOLATED like you guys here are trying to do. You'll never understand it with thinking to isolate it.

As a matter of fact, I see many brethren here go into 'tunnel vision' mode when trying to understand a Bible Scripture. Thinking to isolate a verse off by itself, taking it out of the context of the Chapter flow, etc., is not the way to understand God's Word. God has given two or more witnesses in Scripture of a matter, so find those other Bible witnesses of the event in question.

That they are martyrs for their faith is tunnel vision using that single verse.

John uses the term witness or martyr several times in the book. Revelation 2:13 and Revelation 17:6 as specific for that purpose. Even the two witnesses are described with the term martyr. The term in Revelation 6 is specific to being slain for another particular purpose. That is why you think I have "tunnel vision". The word can mean witness not just being martyred in the common usage under persecution. Every one who spread the gospel as a witness used the same word that we get martyr from in the Greek.

Martyr: Old English martir, via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek martur ‘witness’. If you are going with the thought of first century lingo every one who was a witness was a martyr.

So holding to a rigid definition of being killed for one's belief by a government opposed to that belief, only works in Revelation 2:13 and Revelation 17:6.

Most English translators used English "witness" unless the context pointed to being a martyr. Or "testimony" as synonymous with "witness".

An argument pointing to being rigid in my thought is the context of being slain and under the alter. That is why I asked if one thinks Jesus was a martyr on the Cross. Those in the first century would, because their word martyr meant witness and testimony. The Lamb and alter symbolically represents the witness and testimony of those redeemed and in Christ, so the entire church. Not just your narrow minded view of the modern use of the word martyr. Also being slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is pointed out. The final harvest is the removal of humanity out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[rwb]

Yes there is when the text says Jesus was taken up to heaven and His throne. You can have a different interpretation of the text but you can’t say that there is nothing in the text indicate it.

Yes I agree of course Jesus had power to cast out demons before the cross I just believe that they were cast out of heaven after the cross.

Its okay actually because I believe we have the same views in most cases in the bible and it’s none esent doctrine

Marty, the verse says, "her child was caught up to God, and to His throne." Christ did not ascend up to God and His throne through His Spirit, not as a baby, but after His crucifixion. And forty days later after resurrecting from the grave, Christ was seen physically ascending to heaven in a cloud.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 1:9 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The passage does not say when the child would be caught up to God and His throne, it says only that He would. But as an infant the new born King had to be protected from the clutches of the power of Satan because he desired for King Herod to murder Him. Therefore, God appeared to Joseph in a dream and warned him of the danger so God, through Joseph could assure the baby would not be murdered before He accomplished the task He was sent to earth to do.

I Satan would be cast out of heaven after Christ was crucified why does John write that the war in heaven took place when Christ was born?

 

[Timtofly]

Only a very basic understanding of the events of the fifth seal are needed to see the flaw in this occurring in the future.

1 there are the souls of believers who died for their testimony.
2 they ask a question
3 that question is answered

Since believers currently know with 100% confidence what the answer to the question will be, this means we don’t need to ask it in the first place.

You seem to think you are going to be one of the souls in Revelation 6:9. Why are you personally going to ask the question of how long when you know the answer? Can you explain yourself?

Perhaps you should give us the exact date and time on earth, you know when they will get their answer?

 

[grafted branch]

Perhaps you should give us the exact date and time on earth, you know when they will get their answer?

Just as we don’t know the exact date and time of Christ’s birth but we can certainly know it has already happened, so too we can know the question asked at the fifth seal has happened without placing an exact time or date on the event.

 

[Timtofly]

So let’s look at the idea that as people die, they go to heaven and ask how long.

First off it’s souls in the plural sense that ask, not singularly or one at a time, and as time passes the avenging would constantly be getting closer making a single answer meaningless.
Then at some point the last person would die and there would be no fellow servants or brethren left to be killed. What this all boils down to is that John didn’t record the scenario you’re describing.

Nor the one you are describing. This is the entire church asking a symbolic rhetorical question that John writes down. You don't even know when it is asked. How can you know when the answer happens?

The question happens at the rapture and Second Coming. But no one knows when that will happen and certainly not after the "last soul dies" as you put it.

 

[Marty fox]

I know Josephus has something in his writings that people use to refer to the third seal but I’m just not personally convinced that it can refer to a literal famine.

The studying that I’ve done leads me to believe that the first four seals are talking about Jesus. For example in Luke 12:51-53 Jesus says he came not to bring peace but division which matches the second seal.

They refer to the 4 horses in Zechariah

If you line up the seals to Matthew 24 you will see the same events. I believe it was the time leading up to 70 AD Jesus doesn’t make people kill each other

https://thomastaylorministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Matthew-24-is-the-six-seals-of-revelation.jpg

 

[grafted branch]

Nor the one you are describing. This is the entire church asking a symbolic rhetorical question that John writes down. You don't even know when it is asked. How can you know when the answer happens?

The question happens at the rapture and Second Coming. But no one knows when that will happen and certainly not after the "last soul dies" as you put it.

Since you are part of the church, why are you going to ask a question that you already know the answer to? And are you planning on asking Jesus questions like how many disciples did you pick or how many days were you in the wilderness after you got baptized?

 

[grafted branch]

They refer to the 4 horses in Zechariah

If you line up the seals to Matthew 24 you will see the same events. I believe it was the time leading up to 70 AD Jesus doesn’t make people kill each other

https://thomastaylorministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Matthew-24-is-the-six-seals-of-revelation.jpg

Well in Matthew 10:34-36 Jesus said he came not to send peace but a sword to set man at variance against his father … and in Matthew 10:21 brother shall deliver up brother to death and father the child …

I agree Jesus didn’t force people to kill each other but if they didn’t kill Him the scriptures wouldn’t be fulfilled. One of Jesus’s tasks was to cause division which sets brother against brother to the death and He came not for peace but a sword. This matches Revelation 6:4 where it says “and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword”.

But the major problem, at least for me, is that the third seal just simply doesn’t add up to famine in any literal sense when it’s carefully examined. It might be a famine of hearing the word but I not confident that someone can spiritualize the third seal to come to that conclusion.

 

[Marty fox]

Well in Matthew 10:34-36 Jesus said he came not to send peace but a sword to set man at variance against his father … and in Matthew 10:21 brother shall deliver up brother to death and father the child …

I agree Jesus didn’t force people to kill each other but if they didn’t kill Him the scriptures wouldn’t be fulfilled. One of Jesus’s tasks was to cause division which sets brother against brother to the death and He came not for peace but a sword. This matches Revelation 6:4 where it says “and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword”.

But the major problem, at least for me, is that the third seal just simply doesn’t add up to famine in any literal sense when it’s carefully examined. It might be a famine of hearing the word but I not confident that someone can spiritualize the third seal to come to that conclusion.

You need to look at the rest of the message of the bible to get the proper interpretation. Ask yourself is that Jesus character? Jesus is the prince of peace and came to heal and restore and bring true inner peace.

What Jesus is saying is that because of Him and His message families will be divided because they have to choose to either believe in Him or not and some will leave their families faith for faith in Jesus and they will be persecuted for it even by their families

Thus it’s not Jesus who causes it it’s the result of His ministry it’s man sin of rejecting Him and His peace He wants all to come to Him.


Im not spiritualizing the third seal it happened what most f Israel was starving in Jerusalem during the seige

 

[rwb]

You need to look at the rest of the message of the bible to get the proper interpretation. Ask yourself is that Jesus character? Jesus is the prince of peace and came to heal and restore and bring true inner peace.

What Jesus is saying is that because of Him and His message families will be divided because they have to choose to either believe in Him or not and some will leave their families faith for faith in Jesus and they will be persecuted for it even by their families

Thus it’s not Jesus who causes it it’s the result of His ministry it’s man sin of rejecting Him and His peace He wants all to come to Him.


Im not spiritualizing the third seal it happened what most f Israel was starving in Jerusalem during the seige

At the same time the Lamb who is God came riding a white horse which is always symbolic of purity and righteousness (which is what the white robes symbolize) there came also the other three that in various ways are symbolic of the ones who cause all manner of evil and death. They are red, black and pale in colors that symbolize blood through murder the rider brings to earth, iniquity/deceit/dishonesty, and death that comes through hunger, war and wild animals upon the earth.

Marty, I really want to continue this discussion but this a.m. I am scheduled to have cataract surgery and must go prepare. It may be a few days before I am able to continue, so please be praying that all goes well and my vision will be vastly improved. As Arnold S. would have said, "I'll be back" LOL.

 

[grafted branch]

Im not spiritualizing the third seal it happened what most f Israel was starving in Jerusalem during the seige

I understand that there was famine in Jerusalem during the siege and this is seen in Ezekiel 4.



In Ezekiel 4:9-10, Ezekiel is limited to what he can eat and how much he can eat which was the weight of 20 shekels per day. In Revelation 6:6 there is a measure of wheat and 3 measures of barley that cost 1 penny, this doesn’t imply that a person can’t buy more than a penny’s worth of food. So a person isn’t eating their food by weight here, they are eating their food by price. In Revelation 6 bread would be scarce to a person only if they couldn’t afford the price and in Ezekiel the bread itself is scarce and limited by weight.



Also from Wikipedia a shekel weighed between 7 and 17 grams, with 11, 14, and 17 grams being the most common weights. If we assume the highest weight, then 20 multiplied by 17 grams equal 340 grams. Many commentaries state that a shekel weighed .5 ounces or 14 grams, which would put the total amount Ezekiel ate per day at 283.5 grams. 340 grams is about 2.5 times smaller and 283.5 grams is about 3.2 times smaller than the estimates of a measure in Revelation 6:6 which is about 900 grams. Ezekiel was eating food as if Jerusalem was in a siege and in amounts as if it was scarce. Since this amount doesn’t correspond to the amount in Relation 6:6, it doesn’t seem likely that Revelation 6:6 is pointing toward a siege, scarcity, or famine.



Edited, correction



I made an error, I used volume measurement instead of weight measurement for the barley.

1 US quart of barley grain weighs 570 grams.
1 US quart of wheat grain weighs 750.5 grams.

Looking again at the amount (volume) that Ezekiel ate in Ezekiel 4, with a shekel weight of 17 grams (17 X 20 = 340 grams) Ezekiel ate approximately .6 of a quart of barley or .45 of a quart of wheat each day. If the shekel weight was 14 as is mentioned in the commentaries then Ezekiel ate approximately .5 of a quart of barley or .38 quart of wheat per day.

This still doesn’t match Revelation 6:6.

 

[grafted branch]

I am scheduled to have cataract surgery and must go prepare. It may be a few days before I am able to continue, so please be praying that all goes well and my vision will be vastly improved. As Arnold S. would have said, "I'll be back" LOL.

I’ll be praying for you and hope to see you back soon.

 

[Marty fox]

At the same time the Lamb who is God came riding a white horse which is always symbolic of purity and righteousness (which is what the white robes symbolize) there came also the other three that in various ways are symbolic of the ones who cause all manner of evil and death. They are red, black and pale in colors that symbolize blood through murder the rider brings to earth, iniquity/deceit/dishonesty, and death that comes through hunger, war and wild animals upon the earth.

Marty, I really want to continue this discussion but this a.m. I am scheduled to have cataract surgery and must go prepare. It may be a few days before I am able to continue, so please be praying that all goes well and my vision will be vastly improved. As Arnold S. would have said, "I'll be back" LOL.

So did Arnie LOL

Praying for a good recovery and improvement for you

 

[Davidpt]

Yea, I think a little season is a relatively short time also. So why would those who ask the question in Revelation 6:10 be told to wait a little season when they died prior to the writing of Revelation? Are you saying they died 2,000 or more years ago and they still haven’t asked the question yet? Shouldn’t they be able to read the Bible in heaven and see that they need to ask the question?

After all this time I finally grasp where you are coming from and why. Better late than never, I guess. Let's try and figure some things out here here then, based on the text itself.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The first thing that seems obviously apparent is this. Persecution of His saints precede God's vengeance on those persecuting His saints.
Which then brings up something else to factor in here. If some of those that have been persecuting His saints are already dead when the events involving the 6th seal begin to take place, how are the 6th seal events relevent to them, meaning dead ppl?

Obviously then, this little season that they should rest until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, this can't be spanning hundreds or thousand of years, but has to be spanning an era of time when their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, are being killed. Otherwise you end up with nonsense per the 6th seal since that wrath is involving those that are persecuting His saints during this little season in question. Therefore, this little season is still future since the 6th seal events are still future and that this wrath per the 6th seal is being poured out on those that have been persecuting their brethren during this little season in question.

Of course though, you mainly leaning towards Preterism, you likely disagree that the 6th seal events are still future. Clearly, whatever and however verse 15 and 16 above needs to be understood, nothing in the past remotely explains any of that. If trying to apply that to literal events such as 70 AD, means one then needs to apply verse 15 and 16 in the literal sense, since the events pertaining to 70 AD involved literal events. Except no one was doing that at the time what verse 15 and 16 records they will be doing. Therefore, it makes zero sense to apply the 6th seal events to events such as 70 AD when verse 15 and 16 can't fit a literal event such as 70 AD nor leading up to it.

 

[grafted branch]

The first thing that seems obviously apparent is this. Persecution of His saints precede God's vengeance on those persecuting His saints.
Which then brings up something else to factor in here. If some of those that have been persecuting His saints are already dead when the events involving the 6th seal begin to take place, how are the 6th seal events relevent to them, meaning dead ppl?

I think you are saying everyone who is doing to killing prior to the fifth seal cannot die prior to the sixth seal because that’s the point where the dead peoples blood gets avenged on those who “dwell on the earth”, and to dwell on the earth means to be alive. The two witnesses, in Revelation 11:5, kill people who hurt them by the fire that proceeds out of the their mouths. Unless you think the two witnesses aren’t being harmed by those who kill the fifth seal martyrs it doesn’t seem to work.

I would say nearly every view has to have at least some of the people who killed the fifth seal martyrs die prior to the sixth seal.

Obviously then, this little season that they should rest until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, this can't be spanning hundreds or thousand of years, but has to be spanning an era of time when their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, are being killed. Otherwise you end up with nonsense per the 6th seal since that wrath is involving those that are persecuting His saints during this little season in question. Therefore, this little season is still future since the 6th seal events are still future and that this wrath per the 6th seal is being poured out on those that have been persecuting their brethren during this little season in question.

The brethren that are killed as they were are being killed prior to the Old Covenant vanishing. Once the Old Covenant vanishes people are still killed but not “as they were”. Under the New Covenant we no longer seek or ask to be avenged.

From Matthew 23:35 we know that from Abel to Zechariah their blood will come upon you, meaning Jerusalem. Dead people in Revelation 6:10 are asking when this event will happen.

Of course though, you mainly leaning towards Preterism, you likely disagree that the 6th seal events are still future. Clearly, whatever and however verse 15 and 16 above needs to be understood, nothing in the past remotely explains any of that. If trying to apply that to literal events such as 70 AD, means one then needs to apply verse 15 and 16 in the literal sense, since the events pertaining to 70 AD involved literal events. Except no one was doing that at the time what verse 15 and 16 records they will be doing. Therefore, it makes zero sense to apply the 6th seal events to events such as 70 AD when verse 15 and 16 can't fit a literal event such as 70 AD nor leading up to it

As far as vs 15-16 it could be entirely possible that people who were at or near Jerusalem during the 66 to 70AD events literally hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains and literally said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. How can anyone prove that didn’t happen?

 

[Davidpt]

As far as vs 15-16 it could be entirely possible that people who were at or near Jerusalem during the 66 to 70AD events literally hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains and literally said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. How can anyone prove that didn’t happen?

Who do a lot of people, maybe you as well, rely on besides what is recorded in the Bible to give an account of what happened in those days? Is it not Josephus the historian that some people look to to give an eyewitness account of those events at the time? Did he ever mention anything in his writings that match what verse 15 and 16 records? Doesn't seem to make much sense for him to exclude something like that if it was something he or someone that he knew eyewitnessed at the time.

 

[grafted branch]

Who do a lot of people, maybe you as well, rely on besides what is recorded in the Bible to give an account of what happened in those days? Is it not Josephus the historian that some people look to to give an eyewitness account of those events at the time? Did he ever mention anything in his writings that match what verse 15 and 16 records? Doesn't seem to make much sense for him to exclude something like that if it was something he or someone that he knew eyewitnessed at the time.

I don’t know if Josephus recorded anything or not but in Luke 23:28-30 Jesus tells the people of Jerusalem to weep for themselves for days were soon to come in which these people of Jerusalem would say to the mountains, Fall on us, and to the hills, Cover us. Which means Revelation 6:15-16 must have been fulfilled at least in part in the destruction of Jerusalem as is strongly implied in Luke 23:28-30.

 

[rwb]

I’ll be praying for you and hope to see you back soon.

So did Arnie LOL

Praying for a good recovery and improvement for you

Thank you both for your prayers. I'm happy to report that I have restored vision 20/20 to my right eye and in about two weeks will have the same (hopefully) with my left. Right now things are a little blurred because of the drops, so I'll try this again when things are better. Hope you have a very Merry Christmas!

 

[Marty fox]

Thank you both for your prayers. I'm happy to report that I have restored vision 20/20 to my right eye and in about two weeks will have the same (hopefully) with my left. Right now things are a little blurred because of the drops, so I'll try this again when things are better. Hope you have a very Merry Christmas!

Glad to hear God is good