Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[Aunty Jane]

2 Thess. 2:8-12
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This chapter in 2 Thessalonians is chock full of spiritual gems…..Paul starts by addressing his brothers concerning the day when Christ returns to gather them and to take them “home”….but he warned that this would not take place unless a foretold apostasy occurred first…and a “man of lawlessness” would be revealed as a counterfeit Christian entity who would try their best to lead the whole Christian world astray, including God’s elect if they were not vigilant.

This imposter (not an individual, but a composite “man” corrupt in their ideas and led by the devil) would try to introduce doctrines that were a complete departure from the truth, but while the apostles were still alive, these acted as a “restraint”.
Once the last apostle John passed away at the close of the first century however, that restraint was removed, and opened the way for the counterfeit to spread like “weeds”….almost choking out the truth of God’s word with false teachings that been perpetuated to this day.

Those who accept that counterfeit and embrace those false doctrines, are the ones whom Paul is referring to here. These will believe the lies and show no love for the truth when they hear it….a strong delusion overtakes them even in the face of clear Bible teachings.

Then all Israel will be saved. Read Revelation 12 and 13. The woman is national Israel - the genealogy of Jesus. The last verse of chapter 12 shows that imperfect Christians (the offspring of Spiritual Israel who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ) will be on earth during the Great Tribulation to overcome and repent, but will be martyred because of the false doctrines they heard and believed up to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is why the doctrine I believe is that the gospel is the power of God, and that only the righteous or holy will be saved

We also believe that only the righteous will be saved, but we believe very differently to you….

“The great tribulation” that is just ahead of us, will be worse than any calamity that humans have ever experienced on earth before (Matt 24:21)…..so we must be prepared for it, both spiritually and mentally, knowing that God will see us through it.

The scene painted by Revelation ch 12 is vivid….The woman is not national Israel, because fleshly Israel no longer features in God’s purpose, she has fulfilled her role and because of her constant disobedience, she will never feature in it again, nor will any geographical location on earth be the focus for God’s worship because no land is “holy“ to Jehovah anymore. Israel’s skirts are dripping in blood, like all the other political nations of this world with blood guilt. (Isa 1:15) God sanctioned war for Israel only to defend their God-given land…no land today is God-given, and the once “holy land” gifted to Israel, is now polluted with innocent blood.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Revelation 7:
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We know that these are already Christians going into the Great Tribulation because they already have "robes" and are not naked.

If we read that in context we will see a contrast between a numbered group seen in heaven with Jesus and an unnumbered group seen coming out of “the great tribulation” as survivors.

Rev 7: 1-4, John sees 4 angels holding back the winds of destruction and…..”another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”.

So 144,000 are sealed from all the tribes of ‘spiritual Israel’ as fleshly Israel cannot come to God with blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15) ….and then John goes on to describe the scene…

”After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

So these who are clothed in white robes (signifying a clean and righteous standing with God, and who have palm branches in their hands signifying the peaceful condition they enjoy as God’s servants on earth) are the survivors of the great tribulation…..and they are from “all tribes, peoples and tongues”…..those who are protected through that awful time by God’s spirit.

Looking at the world and especially the wickedness in the USA I believe the second coming of Jesus will be only a few years away. How about you?

indeed it is the very reason why we are known the world over for our witnessing work….”the good news” (gospel) of the Kingdom was to “be preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before God brings the curtain down on this poor excuse for a world. (Matt 24:14)

We are prepared as never before for this calamity to suddenly overtake the world…..the element of surprise always works for the devil because he lulls people into a false sense of security….that’s why a cry of “peace and security” will precede the sudden outbreak of the tribulation…”like the pangs of distress upon a pregnant woman”…..although expected, the moment when it happens is not known until the pangs begin.

The south coast??? When you look into a mirror are you standing on your head?

LOL…..oh the benefits of gravity and mental perception…..what an amazing Creator we have!
It is incredible to me that when I visited the US some years ago, the moon appeared to be upside down and the water going down the drain moved in the opposite direction to what it does in the Southern Hemisphere….…what is the experience of those at the equator, I wonder?

So much to address.....sorry this is so long...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where did I include the body with our spirit and soul as part of the "old man"? When Paul was speaking of "the flesh" he wasn't talking about our bodies.

Of course the "flesh" is speaking of our old bodies. The "old man" is our physical bodies, together with our souls, which we can either go to or overcome.

After all he said in Romans 8:9 that we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit. That would be hard to wrap our mind around not being in our body, like we are constantly in astro-projection!

Wow, I haven't heard that for awhile! I think you're talking about astral projection?

To not live according to the flesh does not mean we are bodiless, nor does it mean that the "flesh" means anything other than our physical or bodily existence. When we turn against the flesh we are turning against a life that considers our own bodily existence as autonomous and liberated from God's word. We pursue what our eyes see and what our bodies want. We covet and lust.

Paul was talking of the "old man," our pre-Christ nature where sin dwelt.

It is *still* our nature today! Otherwise, we would not have to be resisting it and overcoming it.

Jesus came to free and cleanse us from sin, so if Jesus succeeded, we would not have a sin nature, but a cleansed nature free of sin suitable to partake of the divine nature of God.

You actually think you don't have a Sin Nature any longer? You're confusing what we choose to live in, the Flesh or the Spirit, with extinguishing Sin completely. But to say we no longer have carnal interests because we've been Saved is wrong.

Romans 7:5 is a verse many people overlook when they talk about sin still in their nature as Romans 7:14-25 spoke about. "5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Did you see the past tense in verse 5?

Look at Romans 8:9-10 together and see Paul is not meaning our body when speaking of the flesh. It is just another word for carnal or sinful that He freed us from.

To be liberated from the Flesh is to choose the ways of the Spirit and to be liberated, legally, from the condemnation of the Sinful Flesh. We overcome the Flesh by walking in the Spirit. And we trust that Christ legally defeated our condemnation not so that we no longer suffer any rebuke, but only in the sense we can walk fairly blamelessly and be guaranteed a place in Eternity.

The body is not born again, it is still decaying. If our body was where sin dwelt, Jesus would have included the body we are walking around in to make us clean.

We are people who consist of both body and soul. If we are Born Again, the entire person is Born Again--not just the soul.

To be Born Again means that we are regenerated while we live in the present bodies. It does not mean the Carnal Man is gone and now we are Immortal and Perfect. Neither is our spirit within immortal and perfect. The entire Man is regenerated so that we can begin to make good choices for the Spirit against the ways of the Flesh.

I don't remember what your definition of grace is. Paul equates God's grace with God's power. So do I.

Grace is anything we receive from Christ apart from our own Works. Mercy is grace. The gift of eternal life is grace. The gifts of the Spirit are grace. Grace means "kindness."

Well, I think we both can see ourselves behaving in this debate. So we can both have clear consciences.

I agree. That doesn't always happen among Christians!

One thing I noticed is that I did not mean YOU were lying to me, just that many of us lie to ourselves and believe a lie and it will become part of us as Prov. 23:7. That is why when Paul said we are free from sin - the fact - that we should also reckon ourselves free from sin. The truth is part of the power of God.

Okay.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Not the way we see it at all…..each congregation had its specific merits and shortcomings, so that each was given opportunity to fix whatever was amiss in their particular congregation, which we know is a gathering together of Christ’s disciples who met for spiritual fellowship and instruction….all were to be of “the same mind and the same line of thought” as Paul said (1 Cor 1:10) so unless they repented of their wrong conduct, there was no salvation for them. Unity is a product of God’s spirit, so the Christ cannot "exist divided".

This is where I must ask you if you have a brotherhood who all believe as you do, and with whom you meet for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25) There was never a time when individuals in Christianity could go out on a limb by themselves in their interpretation of scripture…all had to be in agreement, holding one truth.

I attend a very small country church that was originally Methodist. We left the denomination because of their ordaining homosexual bishops. The denomination went through a major split over that.

All 7 churches are 3-fold prophecies. They are to the local churches as you said, but also to the universal type of Christian it represents, and finally the revelation/prophecies of church ages. The last 4 starting with Thyatira are denominations in order. Thyatira is the Catholic and Orthodox church age. Sardis is the Reformation that at first taught dead doctrines such as cessationism, until 200 years into the Reformation when John Wesley brought the Church back to holiness, then Philadelphia which holds to the whole Word of God including the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then Laodecia the falling away of 2 Thess. 2:3.

We cannot discuss Romans 11 without referring to the olive tree….

In the illustration of the olive tree, the natural Jews who rejected Jesus are likened to olive branches that were “broken off.” (Rom. 11:17) They thereby lost the opportunity to become part of Abraham’s seed. But who would replace them? From the standpoint of the natural Jews, who prided themselves on their fleshly descent from Abraham, the answer would be unthinkable. But John the Baptizer had already forewarned them that if Jehovah wished to do so, he could raise up children to Abraham from the very stones. (Matt 3:7-10)

What, then, did Jehovah do to fulfill his purpose? Paul explains that branches from a wild olive tree were grafted onto the cultivated olive tree to replace those broken off. (Romans 11:17-18) Thus, spirit-anointed Christians of the nations, (Gentiles) to whom Paul was referring in the congregation in Rome, were figuratively grafted onto this symbolic olive tree. In this way they became part of Abraham’s seed. Originally, they were like wild olive branches, not having any opportunity to be a part of this special covenant. But Jehovah opened the way for them to become spiritual Jews. (Rom 2:28-29)

The “Israel” who is saved is therefore spiritual Israel….”the Israel of God”.

I agree with this.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This chapter in 2 Thessalonians is chock full of spiritual gems…..Paul starts by addressing his brothers concerning the day when Christ returns to gather them and to take them “home”….but he warned that this would not take place unless a foretold apostasy occurred first…and a “man of lawlessness” would be revealed as a counterfeit Christian entity who would try their best to lead the whole Christian world astray, including God’s elect if they were not vigilant.

This imposter (not an individual, but a composite “man” corrupt in their ideas and led by the devil) would try to introduce doctrines that were a complete departure from the truth, but while the apostles were still alive, these acted as a “restraint”.
Once the last apostle John passed away at the close of the first century however, that restraint was removed, and opened the way for the counterfeit to spread like “weeds”….almost choking out the truth of God’s word with false teachings that been perpetuated to this day.

Those who accept that counterfeit and embrace those false doctrines, are the ones whom Paul is referring to here. These will believe the lies and show no love for the truth when they hear it….a strong delusion overtakes them even in the face of clear Bible teachings.

I agree with you.

We also believe that only the righteous will be saved, but we believe very differently to you….

“The great tribulation” that is just ahead of us, will be worse than any calamity that humans have ever experienced on earth before (Matt 24:21)…..so we must be prepared for it, both spiritually and mentally, knowing that God will see us through it.

The scene painted by Revelation ch 12 is vivid….The woman is not national Israel, because fleshly Israel no longer features in God’s purpose, she has fulfilled her role and because of her constant disobedience, she will never feature in it again, nor will any geographical location on earth be the focus for God’s worship because no land is “holy“ to Jehovah anymore. Israel’s skirts are dripping in blood, like all the other political nations of this world with blood guilt. (Isa 1:15) God sanctioned war for Israel only to defend their God-given land…no land today is God-given, and the once “holy land” gifted to Israel, is now polluted with innocent blood.

Romans 11 is talking about national Israel and out of her there is Spiritual Israel which Christian Gentiles are grafted into it. But Paul says that national Israel will only be partially blind UNTIL the last Gentile that wants to be saved believes. Then all Israel will be saved. That's pretty clear to me.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

what is the experience of those at the equator, I wonder?

Maybe the water splits like at the Red Sea! LOL

 

[BlessedPeace]

The soul is God's breath. It is never destroyed because it is of God.
It returns to God when we die. If it is destroyed, it means it doesn't have further existence as our soulful self. As in returning to this world and reigning with Jesus.

When the soul returns to God it is one with the God who gave it. God is immortal.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course the "flesh" is speaking of our old bodies. The "old man" is our physical bodies, together with our souls, which we can either go to or overcome.

The "old man" dies. You're not dead yet are you? Again, of the three (spirit, soul, body) what dies and is born again is the spirit and soul, our nature. Our nature is called clean John 15:1-4. I call that sinless, just to see your reaction. LOL. John calls it righteous Revelation 22:11 and 1 John 3:7. Paul says we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit. That is our nature. Not our body. Unless you are part of the walking dead. LOL. Romans 8:10 brings up our body and says it still must die because of Adam's sin. Because it doesn't do anything sinful on its own, it can wait. But it doesn't change how we behave. Our body is like a floppy puppet. It does what our nature tells it to do. Either sin as with a sin nature. Or righteous as with a clean nature.

Wow, I haven't heard that for awhile! I think you're talking about astral projection?

I'd rather spell that wrong than sinlessness.

To not live according to the flesh does not mean we are bodiless, nor does it mean that the "flesh" means anything other than our physical or bodily existence. When we turn against the flesh we are turning against a life that considers our own bodily existence as autonomous and liberated from God's word. We pursue what our eyes see and what our bodies want. We covet and lust.

Coveting and lusting are in our heart which is part of our nature.

It is *still* our nature today! Otherwise, we would not have to be resisting it and overcoming it.

It is only a problem if you do NOT walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16 Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You actually think you don't have a Sin Nature any longer? You're confusing what we choose to live in, the Flesh or the Spirit, with extinguishing Sin completely. But to say we no longer have carnal interests because we've been Saved is wrong.

I know I don't. I really think it is easier for Christian women than Christian men. You've go all that testosterone running through your bodies.

We are people who consist of both body and soul. If we are Born Again, the entire person is Born Again--not just the soul.

To be Born Again means that we are regenerated while we live in the present bodies. It does not mean the Carnal Man is gone and now we are Immortal and Perfect. Neither is our spirit within immortal and perfect. The entire Man is regenerated so that we can begin to make good choices for the Spirit against the ways of the Flesh.

You forgot the spirit. Because the body isn't dead yet, being born again of the Sprit must consist of something besides the body. Could it be our spirit and soul? Yep!

Grace is anything we receive from Christ apart from our own Works. Mercy is grace. The gift of eternal life is grace. The gifts of the Spirit are grace. Grace means "kindness."

Can't argue with that!

I agree. That doesn't always happen among Christians!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The soul is God's breath. It is never destroyed because it is of God.
It returns to God when we die. If it is destroyed, it means it doesn't have further existence as our soulful self. As in returning to this world and reigning with Jesus.

When the soul returns to God it is one with the God who gave it. God is immortal.

Like the word flesh has two meanings - carnal nature or body; the soul has two meanings - heart or person. That's why we need to read in context, context, contest!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, of the three (spirit, soul, body) what dies and is born again is the spirit and soul, our nature.

Yes, the soul died spiritually by receiving a death sentence. The body does not die immediately.

The "Flesh," however, refers to our carnal nature as controlled by our bodies, through the influence of poisoned spirits and corrupted souls. Our soul was corrupted when we decided to make choices independent of God's word.

Our nature is called clean John 15:1-4. I call that sinless, just to see your reaction.

But it isn't "sinless." That's my reaction. When you wash clothes, you get clean clothes, but you don't thereby get *perfect* clothes.

John calls it righteous Revelation 22:11 and 1 John 3:7. Paul says we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit. That is our nature. Not our body.

We are not living by our flesh--that is what Paul was referring to. He did not mean that our carnal nature had expired or even could be completely excised. Paul was advocating for a way of living, albeit not perfection. He was advocating for our choice to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh, not at all meaning we could live by the Spirit perfectly and see the "flesh" completely annihilated.

But it doesn't change how we behave. Our body is like a floppy puppet. It does what our nature tells it to do. Either sin as with a sin nature. Or righteous as with a clean nature.

Since our spirits are compromised and poisoned by Sin the body operates by an engine that tends to operate imperfectly. But we can choose to go completely in the independent, sinful way, or we can choose to operate to overcome Sin and a sinful lifestyle.

The whole Man, body, spirit, and soul operate as one. The carnal nature involves all 3, or the spiritual nature involves all 3--it is the choice we must make.

Whatever choice we make, to follow the Spirit or to go our own way, we still cannot operate our body using a perfect engine. Our spirits have been poisoned, and our soul is compromised. We tend to follow our physical senses in the wrong direction, but can get it right, if we so choose. We can ignore our physical temptations and choose to follow the Spirit to go God's way.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The "Flesh," however, refers to our carnal nature as controlled by our bodies, through the influence of poisoned spirits and corrupted souls. Our soul was corrupted when we decided to make choices independent of God's word.

Everything you are saying is true for an unsaved person. Please add scriptures for your proof. I need to see why you think this way.

But it isn't "sinless." That's my reaction. When you wash clothes, you get clean clothes, but you don't thereby get *perfect* clothes.

We aren't talking about Perfection. We are talking about the first step when Christ takes us from death to life. He takes the desire to commit lawlessness against God like murder, etc. out of our nature. To be perfect takes a long time and has to do with the sins NOT unto death called trespasses that we commit against each other and are continually cleansed as we forgive each other while walking in the Spirit. John 15:1-4; 1 John 1:7

We are not living by our flesh--that is what Paul was referring to. He did not mean that our carnal nature had expired or even could be completely excised. Paul was advocating for a way of living, albeit not perfection. He was advocating for our choice to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh, not at all meaning we could live by the Spirit perfectly and see the "flesh" completely annihilated.

Your first sentence was correct and is about a born again Christian. The rest has nothing to do with the power of the Holy Spirit as if He went on vacation until we save ourselves.

But we can choose to go completely in the independent, sinful way, or we can choose to operate to overcome Sin and a sinful lifestyle.

That is under the law. Why did Jesus die for us if we still have to save ourselves?

The whole Man, body, spirit, and soul operate as one. The carnal nature involves all 3, or the spiritual nature involves all 3--it is the choice we must make.

Again we are saving ourselves. Those who have a sin nature are still a slave of sin. The truth will set us free. John 8:32-36.

Whatever choice we make, to follow the Spirit or to go our own way, we still cannot operate our body using a perfect engine. Our spirits have been poisoned, and our soul is compromised. We tend to follow our physical senses in the wrong direction, but can get it right, if we so choose. We can ignore our physical temptations and choose to follow the Spirit to go God's way.

The key to salvation is abiding in Jesus. That is walking in the Light. Those who "tend" to walk in the wrong direction do that because they walk in darkness. Jesus is no where in sight and He doesn't know that person. Matthew 7:19-23.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Everything you are saying is true for an unsaved person. Please add scriptures for your proof. I need to see why you think this way.

We aren't talking about Perfection. We are talking about the first step when Christ takes us from death to life. He takes the desire to commit lawlessness against God like murder, etc. out of our nature. To be perfect takes a long time and has to do with the sins NOT unto death called trespasses that we commit against each other and are continually cleansed as we forgive each other while walking in the Spirit. John 15:1-4; 1 John 1:7

Your first sentence was correct and is about a born again Christian. The rest has nothing to do with the power of the Holy Spirit as if He went on vacation until we save ourselves.


That is under the law. Why did Jesus die for us if we still have to save ourselves?

Again we are saving ourselves. Those who have a sin nature are still a slave of sin. The truth will set us free. John 8:32-36.

The key to salvation is abiding in Jesus. That is walking in the Light. Those who "tend" to walk in the wrong direction do that because they walk in darkness. Jesus is no where in sight and He doesn't know that person. Matthew 7:19-23.

We see things very different. I have Scriptures, but just as important I have experience. You seem to walk through life mindlessly and passively, thinking your only duty is to believe Christ will do it all for you and without you, save your faith.

You seem to think that any activity of will on our part is "under the Law" and carnal, like an unsaved person. You're welcome to believe as you like. But I think it is very misguided and not true to the Scriptures.

You've heard all of the pertinent Scriptures and continue to believe the way you do. I'm familiar with all of the arguments, and have heard them for a very long time. I'm not likely to change your mind. Have a nice day.

 

[Ritajanice]

We see things very different. I have Scriptures, but just as important I have experience. You seem to walk through life mindlessly and passively, thinking your only duty is to believe Christ will do it all for you and without you, save your faith.

We do our bit and it’s hard real hard at times, many a time, like this morning where I sobbed my heart out to God, telling him I’d had enough of what he placed on my heart.
Do you know, I felt so much better afterwards, as I believe I was carrying it by myself....it was like I gave it back to him and said...you sort it out, I’ve had enough.....LOL

You seem to think that any activity of will on our part is "under the Law" and carnal, like an unsaved person. You're welcome to believe as you like. But I think it is very misguided and not true to the Scriptures.

We still have our own will..I can vouch for that, lol....Gods will is the perfect will for our lives...we have to reach that understanding though, what say you?

You've heard all of the pertinent Scriptures and continue to believe the way you do. I'm familiar with all of the arguments, and have heard them for a very long time. I'm not likely to change your mind. Have a nice day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We do our bit and it’s hard real hard at times, many a time, like this morning where I sobbed my heart out to God, telling him I’d had enough of what he placed on my heart.

Yes, one of my burdens in life is to inform Christians that their walk will not be a "walk in the park." An old pagan man once said, "God hates cowards." Well, there's some truth in that, as crude as he put it.

God wants us to mature, to be strong, to be bold. But at times we will break down, feeling utterly helpless. In those times it's right to pour our hearts out to God.

Do you know, I felt so much better afterwards, as I believe I was carrying it by myself....it was like I gave it back to him and said...you sort it out, I’ve had enough.....LOL

I don't think there's always easy answers, a "final solution," a "magic formula." We all want to believe we've "finally found the answer to my problems!" But in reality, God just gives us answers one at a time, as each problem unfolds. Sometimes answers are not very forthcoming and are life-long issues.

Giving our cares to Jesus is Christianity 101. We *begin* with that idea, and carry it on throughout our lives. It is not a "magic formula," a "magic pill" to solve all of our problems.

We still have our own will..I can vouch for that, lol....Gods will is the perfect will for our lives...we have to reach that understanding though, what say you?

Yes that's beginning Christianity, making Jesus our Lord and Savior. We turn over control of our lives to the Lord, and He guides us from that time forward.

As we grow in "walking in the Spirit," we learn to overcome our carnal tendencies by submitting to Christ. As we look to Christ and turn to him inwardly, we are able to show more of him in our lives.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, one of my burdens in life is to inform Christians that their walk will not be a "walk in the park." An old pagan man once said, "God hates cowards." Well, there's some truth in that, as crude as he put it.

God wants us to mature, to be strong, to be bold. But at times we will break down, feeling utterly helpless. In those times it's right to pour our hearts out to God.

Amen!!....words of truth , sincerity and honesty...God loves us to be honest with him from our hearts.

I don't think there's an easy answers, a "final solution," a "magic formula." We all want to believe we've "finally found the answer to my problems!" But in reality, God just gives us answers one at a time, as each problem unfolds. Sometimes answers are not very forthcoming and are life-long issues.

Agreed.

Giving our cares to Jesus is Christianity 101. We *begin* with that idea, and carry it on throughout our lives. It is not a "magic formula," a "magic pill" to solve all of our problems.

Amen.

Yes that's beginning Christianity, making Jesus our Lord and Savior. We turn over control of our lives to the Lord, and He guides us from that time forward.

As we grow in "walking in the Spirit," we learn to overcome our carnal tendencies by submitting to Christ. As we look to Christ and turn to him inwardly, we are able to show more of him in our lives.

Love it Brother...Amen.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I’ve just been thinking about this sin unto death....I’m still not understanding it.

God revealed his will to me in a certain area ( he revealed it to my heart) .....he told me to stay well away from it....really scared me...I wouldn’t dare go near it.

If I disobeyed ( which I would never do) it’s a hypothetical question....would that be a sin unto death?

You can see how God views sin from the Old Testament, our schoolmaster.

Sins not unto death: Numbers 15:22-29
Sins unto death (there are no sacrifices for these mortal sins) Numbers 15:30-36; 1 John 3:4

Laws Concerning Unintentional Sin​

22 ‘If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses— 23 all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the Lord gave commandment and onward throughout your generations— 24 then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. 25 So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their unintended sin. 26 It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally.

27 ‘And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the Lord, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.

Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin​

30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’ ”

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We see things very different. I have Scriptures, but just as important I have experience. You seem to walk through life mindlessly and passively, thinking your only duty is to believe Christ will do it all for you and without you, save your faith.

You seem to think that any activity of will on our part is "under the Law" and carnal, like an unsaved person. You're welcome to believe as you like. But I think it is very misguided and not true to the Scriptures.

You've heard all of the pertinent Scriptures and continue to believe the way you do. I'm familiar with all of the arguments, and have heard them for a very long time. I'm not likely to change your mind. Have a nice day.

The problem with many Christians when reading the Bible they take verses out of context. Take for instance Paul's teaching on the carnal experience vs. the born again experience, Romans 1 thru 8. Many take a verse out of one of the middle chapters of 3, 4 or 5 and teach we are not under the law, so we can do as we like and the Father can't see those sins because the blood of Jesus covers them. Another set of verses they also use are the verses of what it was like trying to obey the law while having a sin nature. Romans 7:14-25

It would do you good to continue.

 

[Davy]

I believe that when God gave Adam the command to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil lest you surely die, happened when Adam did eat of it, and the first to die was his nature, his immortal spirit and soul. not just his body, and they being Adam's nature became a sin nature.

That isn't possible per Bible Scripture, because that would have meant that Adam would have stopped existing right then. Adam in his flesh even lived to almost a thousand years long after he sinned too. So that means we have to look at that according to Scripture, and not what we want to believe. And God's Word points Adam being assigned to death, and all born in the flesh have also been assigned to that death because of Adam's fall (Romans 5). This matter goes along with what Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:8 reveal about the devil being the first one that actually sinned, in the old world before Adam and Eve, and the power of death was assigned to him.

No soul perishes in the "lake of fire" until when? (and note that the abode of the wicked called "hell" is not the "lake of fire").

And remember, our spirit/soul is not made of material matter. It is not of flesh (2 Cor.5; Matt.10:28).

For us, it is our spirit and soul that is our nature that is reborn of the Spirit and cleansed. Our new nature partakes of the divine nature of God which is why a true Christian does not desire to murder, steal, lie or anything else that God commanded us not to do.

Yes, many don't realize it, but being 'born again' actually involves a 'literal' change to our spirit/soul when that happens. So it's not just a meaningless slogan like many think. I can't really say it involves a 'physical' change to the spirit/soul simply because the word 'physical' applies to the material world of matter. It's a spiritual change, but one with actual substance. It's about removing the assigned death sentence to the future lake of fire that is upon every spirit/soul inherited from Adam's fall. This is why Rev.20 reveals the unsaved even after Christ's future return, will still be subject to the "second death" of perishing in the "lake of fire".

It is interesting that when the body dies, the spirit and soul do not die yet in an unsaved person. Everyone's conciousness either goes to be with God, or into the outer darkness until the resurrection of the dead.

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't believe in their Purgatory idea. I believe how things are is like Jesus showed in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. That's about Paradise. On one side is where the saved are, and on the other is where hell and Satan's pit prison house of darkness is.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That isn't possible per Bible Scripture, because that would have meant that Adam would have stopped existing right then.

You're right. I didn't mean to imply that he dropped dead. LOL But that his body would start to age and eventually die. And all his descendants would be mortal, not immortal.

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

Your Soul IS Immortal. Period.​

Yes, your soul is immortal.

Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, and he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.” — Luke 17:20–21

Christian mystical Non-Duality means that we have never been separated from God, because the kingdom of God has always been deep within us. We have been children of God all along, and forever after, and God will never disown us, despite naturally being, like a loving mother, compassionately angry with us whenever we happen to harm ourselves with our sins, and threatening us with eternal Hell to sober us up. Because, being spiritually immature, we all, in essence, live lives of the prodigal son (or daughter) from the Biblical parable, God being a stern, but loving and forgiving Father, has been kindly allowing us to keep reincarnating for as long as we need in order to purify our mind by spiritually growing in our unconditional Love for all living creatures, including all the Buddhists, because Christ urged us to love even our enemies. For in God’s Heaven, there is only Divine Love and perfect harmony, all revelling in the Non-Dual divine Glory of God’s Holy Light.

Be still, and know that I am God. — Psalms 46:10

When our mind calmly meditates, we abide in stillness, in the silent presence of the occult Holy Light of the Omnipresent mind of God, and in the Holy Peace of God, which surpasses our conceptual thinking and understanding (Philippians 4:7), and thus we become more and more Enlightened by allowing our mind to gently and humbly bask in the glory of God’s all-pervading mystical Holy Light of His divine radiant luminous consciousness that is also hidden deep within our own mind being our True Self and our birth-right to have eternal life in God’s Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ. We all are children of God’s Holy Light, including all the Buddhists, because the kingdom of God is within us all.

All of the above will be revealed also to you directly by God himself in your simple Christian meditation, which we discuss in the following thread on this forum:

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/christian-meditation-and-interfaith-dialog.60309/