Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul himself said he had not yet achieved perfection. No Christian has yet achieved perfection. And nobody today is "under the Law."

Didn't you read Paul's last letter? Perfection does take a long time if you live long enough, but it is achievable. Maybe you missed this because he didn't use the word perfect or perfection, but I grasped it right away.

2 Timothy 1 and 4
1: I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the [b]genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also. 6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

4: 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I've had a number of discussions with them on this very forum. Of course they don't like spelling it out using the terms I use. You seem to be advocating for the same, by your definition of those "not under the Law."

I said, "You have one person who lives in a carnal body, with a sin nature that tends towards rebellion against God's word." I used that the describe the born again person who still has a Sin Nature, who still has within them the tendency towards carnality and sin, though we may overcome that tendency and that sin by obeying God's word, and by relying on the new nature that Christ has given us.

You suggest that is only the case for those who are under the Law. Nobody is under the Law today!

I'm glad you admit that Christ has given us a new nature. Yay!!!

The old sin nature is the "old man." It is still hanging on the cross! Stop trying to revive it. LOL

Romans 6:5-
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Proverbs 23:7 "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he."]

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Seriously??? this is the words of a Christian...man! Where is your self control?
You are “going to be banned” because of your own silly choices of words....put the blame where it lies.
You have a choice to do what you do....and to say what you say.....don’t blame everyone else but the actual culprit.

If you cannot be civil...go and harass people somewhere else.

Wow! He should be reported. I put a guy on another site on ignore. Put P on ignore too; I just did. No one needs to hear that. "Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Do I have to freaking spell it out for you.... NO!! You don't have a choice... that's what makes this so fair... it's a Gift!!! MY GOD!

I will address this scripture though.....without the faecal matter...

It’s the way you read scripture in isolated verses that fails to promote the obvious truth contained in them.....

In context, what was Paul saying.....? (Vs 18-25)
“For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope“

What is the “hope” upon which the futility of this awful life was imposed on us? It was the restoration of what God first purposed in Eden.....to have humans live forever in paradise on earth with no knowledge of evil whatsoever. That is what we glean from Genesis chapters 1-3....which tells us the very reason why God put us here on planet Earth....what went wrong....and how God restores all that was taken from us by those first rebels. It involves an unpleasant and often painful life situation....but it is all worth the reward at the end.

As Paul goes on to say....

“21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.”

Apparently some do not see why we have to suffer, and resent the fact that they do....these have lost sight of the “hope”...or perhaps they never had it to begin with? No amount of suffering in this life can compare to an eternity of living forever without death, sickness, old age and vile, undisciplined people causing angst for everyone else because they cannot control themselves. See the contrast....(Gal 5:19-24)


Read 1 Cor 13:4-7 and see why “love never fails”. This is why we need endurance so that we do not lose sight of the reward because we stopped hoping....these are the qualities we need if we want the life God that is offering us.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow! He should be reported. I put a guy on another site on ignore. Put P on ignore too; I just did. No one needs to hear that. "Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."

Was thinking I should....he’s out of control and his attitude is not Christian. No humility, no patience and very narcissistic in his blaming others for his own shortcomings....”look what you made me do”! Good grief!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

“May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul is not talking about individuals here, but of the entire body of believers...the congregation he was addressing in Thessalonica. In this context, the three terms can have a different meaning....”spirit”, that is, the dominant attitude of the congregation, as a whole......”soul”, that is, the life, or existence, of the congregation.......and ”body”, that is, the composite group of anointed Christians who make up that congregation.

Confirmation for this is found in Paul’s other writings in 1 Cor 12:12-13...

“For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”

Paul’s intense concern for the congregation is evident in his asking that God sanctify them “completely” and that He preserve them “sound in every respect.”

There is no evidence for any tri-existence In man....we are mortals designed to live in a material world, dependant on material support for our lives here. For the human race, death can be a penalty only because of our mortality.....there is no immortal part of us that goes on living because that means that we do not really die. God said we do...and that we return to the dust, not that only the body dies. There is no immortal part of man to live on anywhere else.

That is the problem with imagining something that the Bible does not teach, and confusing terms that do not apply in the big picture. In the Bible, death is the very opposite of life.....it is not a continuation of it somewhere else.....that does not fit the Bible’s overall narrative at all.

Spirit beings were created to live in a spirit realm....humans were created to live in a material realm, so what happened in order for God to decide to take some humans to heaven, to reign with his son as “kings and priests”? (Rev 20:6)
What does the Bible say about that?
In Hebrews 4:15 Paul tells us...
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin”.

Though not subjected to sin in his own flesh, Jesus was surrounded by those who were.
All who make up “the body of Christ”, those who will rule mankind with him for the 1,000 years, have all lived in sinful human flesh, and can also be compassionate “priests” and rulers for those still subject to sin. They have lived this life, and if God had chosen angels to rule us, all they could be over these ages, is observers of the human race, rather than being personally subjected to its trials and tribulations. Only a sinner truly knows what sin is, and what genuine godly sorrow in repentance feels like.

This is why only a relative “few” among humanity are “chosen” for this role. (Rev 14:1-3)
And since God is the one who does the choosing, there is no envy or feelings of jealousy involved with his choices....since it means that we will have the best “government” that mankind has ever had, ruling over us......life will be wonderful in both realms because the “coming” of the Kingdom will mean that God’s will can finally “be done on earth as it is in heaven”...isn’t this what Jesus taught us to pray for?

How many people actually know what the Lord’s Prayer is all about?

Hi again

I am enjoying our posts to one another. I know a little about JW beliefs and do not mind you believing we need to be JW to be part of the elect. Did I get that right? Is it another word? I use a word that I believe to be part of a particular group, and that is a Philadelphian from Revelation 3.

Paul is not talking about individuals here, but of the entire body of believers...the congregation he was addressing in Thessalonica. In this context, the three terms can have a different meaning....”spirit”, that is, the dominant attitude of the congregation, as a whole......”soul”, that is, the life, or existence, of the congregation.......and ”body”, that is, the composite group of anointed Christians who make up that congregation.

I do not see this in that verse, but rather believe that we are made in the image of God who also is a triune being. I am not of the three PERSONS belief that many Trinitarians hold, but one Triune being.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I these as missionaries to Israel to bring all Israel to Jesus, the Lamb and salvation. Romans 11:25-26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

P.S. Do you know where Toowoomba, Queensland is?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm glad you admit that Christ has given us a new nature. Yay!!!

Well thankyou, but I wasn't aware that I *ever* held back my belief in a New Nature!

The old sin nature is the "old man." It is still hanging on the cross! Stop trying to revive it. LOL

I'm certainly not trying to revive living according to our old nature. I'm just being realistic, admitting that we all live in faulty bodies, predisposed towards carnality. However, the Holy Spirit within, along with our New Nature, are predisposed towards righteousness, towards overcoming our carnal tendencies. That's all I've been saying!

To say our bodies died on the cross would be stating something in an ultra-literal way. Only Christ died on the cross--not us. But it can be said that we died *with him* on the cross in the sense that legally he judged all mortal bodies to death because of their association with sin.

In the same way we can say we rose "with Christ" because we are given legal access to our own resurrection by identifying spiritually with him. We cannot just dispose of our carnal nature by viewing ourselves dead on the cross. But we can overcome our carnal nature by drawing from the one who died on the cross, who gave us his Spirit and his life as a legal source confirming our rights to resurrection.

I do wonder, sometimes, why I catch flack for "not saying some things?" But I'm glad we agree in this much....I think??

 

[Randy Kluth]

Didn't you read Paul's last letter? Perfection does take a long time if you live long enough, but it is achievable. Maybe you missed this because he didn't use the word perfect or perfection, but I grasped it right away.

2 Timothy 1 and 4
1: I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the [b]genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also. 6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

4: 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul never claimed to achieve perfection in this life, nor can we. We must die to receive new immortal bodies. Then we will have perfection.

Paul was speaking of finishing the race by completing his ministry, his calling. None of this involved Sinless Perfection!

 

[quietthinker]

Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...​

until it's not.

Has clear objective thinking lost its grip on those who claim to be guardians of Truth?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm certainly not trying to revive living according to our old nature. I'm just being realistic, admitting that we all live in faulty bodies, predisposed towards carnality. However, the Holy Spirit within, along with our New Nature, are predisposed towards righteousness, towards overcoming our carnal tendencies. That's all I've been saying!

Try not to be so realistic! LOL Stay in the Spirit and you will stay in the supernatural. This is where I love to be. Read 1 Cor. 2:9-16.

To say our bodies died on the cross would be stating something in an ultra-literal way. Only Christ died on the cross--not us. But it can be said that we died *with him* on the cross in the sense that legally he judged all mortal bodies to death because of their association with sin.

Our bodies didn't die on the cross, our invisible innards did. Then the resurrected mind and conscience have center stage.

In the same way we can say we rose "with Christ" because we are given legal access to our own resurrection by identifying spiritually with him. We cannot just dispose of our carnal nature by viewing ourselves dead on the cross. But we can overcome our carnal nature by drawing from the one who died on the cross, who gave us his Spirit and his life as a legal source confirming our rights to resurrection.

The thing is, it is not fanciful, but a reality. I can still remember the feeling of a great weight being lifted out of me. That was the part of my nature that had adultery in it. Afterwards I felt light as a feather.

Paul never claimed to achieve perfection in this life, nor can we. We must die to receive new immortal bodies. Then we will have perfection.

I see you didn't accept Paul's testimony. That is up to you. The more you tell a lie, the more you will let it become a part of you. Prov. 23:7

Paul was speaking of finishing the race by completing his ministry, his calling. None of this involved Sinless Perfection!

Sin causes a heavy conscience. His conscience was clear. BTW that is what I do every night. I check my conscience to see if there was anything I needed to ask God to come into that part and strengthen it so I can live as He wants me to live. Light as a feather.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Try not to be so realistic! LOL Stay in the Spirit and you will stay in the supernatural. This is where I love to be. Read 1 Cor. 2:9-16.

I've been reading the Bible my whole life. I've been reading it in the Spirit for over 50 years. It doesn't make me spiritual to say that our bodies died on the cross with Jesus. It's just a manner of speaking.

What makes it spiritual is recognizing our spiritual connection to Christ on the cross and at the resurrection. That enables us to enjoy his life forever. To say our carnal nature is dead together with our body on Jesus' cross is wrong. It died *legally,* and not actually. We have legally received power to *overcome* it--it is not yet extinguished.

Seeing us dead with Christ on the cross is mental gymnastics and does not do anything more than set us up for making choices, either for Christ or against him. If we don't 1st see him, we can't decide for him. But seeing us dead with him does not actually make us dead with him.

We still live in our physical, carnal bodies, stained with the Sin Nature. We only died with him in a legal sense, with respect to the judgment of the Law.

Our bodies didn't die on the cross, our invisible innards did. Then the resurrected mind and conscience have center stage.

The thing is, it is not fanciful, but a reality. I can still remember the feeling of a great weight being lifted out of me. That was the part of my nature that had adultery in it. Afterwards I felt light as a feather.

Congrats to you. I can relate--not perfectly, but I think most of us can certainly relate. We all need mercy. We have all received grace, if indeed we were Born Again.

I see you didn't accept Paul's testimony. That is up to you. The more you tell a lie, the more you will let it become a part of you. Prov. 23:7

To disagree with you is not automatically "a lie!"

Sin causes a heavy conscience. His conscience was clear. BTW that is what I do every night. I check my conscience to see if there was anything I needed to ask God to come into that part and strengthen it so I can live as He wants me to live. Light as a feather.

Be happy you have a clear conscience. On matters of differences, you need to keep a clear conscience too.

 

[Pierac]

I will address this scripture though.....without the faecal matter...

It’s the way you read scripture in isolated verses that fails to promote the obvious truth contained in them.....

In context, what was Paul saying.....? (Vs 18-25)
“For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope“

What is the “hope” upon which the futility of this awful life was imposed on us? It was the restoration of what God first purposed in Eden.....to have humans live forever in paradise on earth with no knowledge of evil whatsoever. That is what we glean from Genesis chapters 1-3....which tells us the very reason why God put us here on planet Earth....what went wrong....and how God restores all that was taken from us by those first rebels. It involves an unpleasant and often painful life situation....but it is all worth the reward at the end.

As Paul goes on to say....

“21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.”

Apparently some do not see why we have to suffer, and resent the fact that they do....these have lost sight of the “hope”...or perhaps they never had it to begin with? No amount of suffering in this life can compare to an eternity of living forever without death, sickness, old age and vile, undisciplined people causing angst for everyone else because they cannot control themselves. See the contrast....(Gal 5:19-24)


Read 1 Cor 13:4-7 and see why “love never fails”. This is why we need endurance so that we do not lose sight of the reward because we stopped hoping....these are the qualities we need if we want the life God that is offering us.

Finally... Some actual passion to do some research.... But you only touched the surface....

KJV... Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NASB Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

YLT Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Whch one got it right...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Finally... Some actual passion to do some research.... But you only touched the surface....

KJV... Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NASB Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

YLT Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Whch one got it right...

I’ll go with the one that agrees with the entirety of scripture....the one that supports the fact that God designed humans to live forever on earth......to not only enjoy his creation, but to study it carefully so as to know it’s Creator and to be the best caretakers of creation next to God himself......the very reason why we are created in God’s image and likeness......I choose box #2.

You know, Pierac, if you climbed down off your high horse a bit and lost your superior attitude, people I’m sure would be more inclined to dialogue with you.......and you would see that not every one is an idiot, as I am sure you would not like others to think that way of you...?

I have seen you post things that I agree with, and things that I strongly disagree with.....but everything should be open for discussion....honest, civil, adult discussion, not childish name calling and looking down your nose at people....Jesus never did that. Take a leaf......

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am enjoying our posts to one another. I know a little about JW beliefs and do not mind you believing we need to be JW to be part of the elect. Did I get that right? Is it another word? I use a word that I believe to be part of a particular group, and that is a Philadelphian from Revelation 3.

Members of the elect have been gathered since Jesus first chose his apostles......these formed the foundations of God’s kingdom in heaven......were they Jehovah’s Witnesses? They were actually, because they were taught by “the Faithful Witness”, Jesus Christ himself. (Rev 21:9-14 Rev 3:14)

I do not see this in that verse, but rather believe that we are made in the image of God who also is a triune being. I am not of the three PERSONS belief that many Trinitarians hold, but one Triune being.

Being “made in God’s image”, to us means having God’s moral qualities and attributes, like the natural instincts to hate injustice and to come to the aid of someone in trouble.....in our insatiable appetite for knowledge and in our appreciation for the beauty of creation, as no other creatures on earth have that capability. We also have the power of imagination to help us plan future activities...no other creature possesses the ability to comprehend time, past, present and future....so we are like God in so many ways...sharing a triune nature seems rather pointless by comparison.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I these as missionaries to Israel to bring all Israel to Jesus, the Lamb and salvation. Romans 11:25-26
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

We see in the scriptures that God chose a new “Israel” for the sole reason that natural Israel was incapable of maintaining their loyalty and obedience to their God as they vowed to do. After executing yet another “prophet”, who was their promised Messiah, God cast them off as serial offenders and covenant breakers. (Matt 23:37-39) He said that Isaiah had prophesied correctly about them. (Matt 15:7-9) Their “hearts are far removed” from the God they claim to worship.

So all the promises made to “Israel” in the flesh, were transferred over to ‘spiritual Israel’...the new nation called “the Israel of God” who were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Gal 6:16) These had a circumcision of the heart and were under a new covenant, and a new law (Rom 2:28-29)...the law of the Christ. Nationality no longer mattered. (Gal 3:28)

Rom 9:6-8...
“6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring”.

Being born Jewish no longer matters. The new Israel have proved themselves faithful.

P.S. Do you know where Toowoomba, Queensland is?

Yes, I have friends who live in Tooowoomba. My sister lives in Queensland.
Australia is big but it only has 5 States and two Territories.

 

[Taken]

Yes… the Lord God “Draws” men unto Himself.

No…the Lord Gods “manner of Drawing” men unto Him, is VIA “force Dragging” a man unto Him.

There is nothing “mysterious” about “forceful dragging a man”.

I would rather say God DOES work in “mysterious” WAYS;
Unexpected chance encounters of God Putting “something unexpected” in the PATH of a man, that which, intrigues, sparks the mans interest, to hear, learn ABOUT the Lord God.

And Yes, manKIND does have the FREEWILL CHOICE to “act” on what is set in his PATH…or NOT.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I've been reading the Bible my whole life. I've been reading it in the Spirit for over 50 years. It doesn't make me spiritual to say that our bodies died on the cross with Jesus. It's just a manner of speaking.

What makes it spiritual is recognizing our spiritual connection to Christ on the cross and at the resurrection. That enables us to enjoy his life forever. To say our carnal nature is dead together with our body on Jesus' cross is wrong. It died *legally,* and not actually. We have legally received power to *overcome* it--it is not yet extinguished.

Seeing us dead with Christ on the cross is mental gymnastics and does not do anything more than set us up for making choices, either for Christ or against him. If we don't 1st see him, we can't decide for him. But seeing us dead with him does not actually make us dead with him.

We still live in our physical, carnal bodies, stained with the Sin Nature. We only died with him in a legal sense, with respect to the judgment of the Law.

Where did I include the body with our spirit and soul as part of the "old man"? When Paul was speaking of "the flesh" he wasn't talking about our bodies. After all he said in Romans 8:9 that we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit. That would be hard to wrap our mind around not being in our body, like we are constantly in astro-projection! Paul was talking of the "old man," our pre-Christ nature where sin dwelt. Jesus came to free and cleanse us from sin, so if Jesus succeeded, we would not have a sin nature, but a cleansed nature free of sin suitable to partake of the divine nature of God. Romans 7:5 is a verse many people overlook when they talk about sin still in their nature as Romans 7:14-25 spoke about. "5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Did you see the past tense in verse 5?

Look at Romans 8:9-10 together and see Paul is not meaning our body when speaking of the flesh. It is just another word for carnal or sinful that He freed us from.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The body is not born again, it is still decaying. If our body was where sin dwelt, Jesus would have included the body we are walking around in to make us clean.

Congrats to you. I can relate--not perfectly, but I think most of us can certainly relate. We all need mercy. We have all received grace, if indeed we were Born Again.

I don't remember what your definition of grace is. Paul equates God's grace with God's power. So do I.

Acts 20:24 "

But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes

Be happy you have a clear conscience. On matters of differences, you need to keep a clear conscience too.

Well, I think we both can see ourselves behaving in this debate. So we can both have clear consciences. One thing I noticed is that I did not mean YOU were lying to me, just that many of us lie to ourselves and believe a lie and it will become part of us as Prov. 23:7. That is why when Paul said we are free from sin - the fact - that we should also reckon ourselves free from sin. The truth is part of the power of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Members of the elect have been gathered since Jesus first chose his apostles......these formed the foundations of God’s kingdom in heaven......were they Jehovah’s Witnesses? They were actually, because they were taught by “the Faithful Witness”, Jesus Christ himself. (Rev 21:9-14 Rev 3:14)

It is interesting that you see yourself as a Laodecian, and I relate to the Philadelphian church era.

We see in the scriptures that God chose a new “Israel” for the sole reason that natural Israel was incapable of maintaining their loyalty and obedience to their God as they vowed to do. After executing yet another “prophet”, who was their promised Messiah, God cast them off as serial offenders and covenant breakers. (Matt 23:37-39) He said that Isaiah had prophesied correctly about them. (Matt 15:7-9) Their “hearts are far removed” from the God they claim to worship.

So all the promises made to “Israel” in the flesh, were transferred over to ‘spiritual Israel’...the new nation called “the Israel of God” who were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Gal 6:16) These had a circumcision of the heart and were under a new covenant, and a new law (Rom 2:28-29)...the law of the Christ. Nationality no longer mattered. (Gal 3:28)

Yes, as Gentiles we are blessed to take the place of one of the national Jews, but that will only be until the last number of Gentiles is complete, THEN no more Gentiles will be saved and then national Israel will again be the focus of God. It will be the 144,000 Jewish virgins that will preach to them.

Rom 9:6-8...
“6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring”.

Being born Jewish no longer matters. The new Israel have proved themselves faithful.

I agree with that.

Yes, I have friends who live in Tooowoomba. My sister lives in Queensland.
Australia is big but it only has 5 States and two Territories.

What state do you live in?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is interesting that you see yourself as a Laodecian, and I relate to the Philadelphian church era.

We have studied Revelation quite thoroughly over the years with new insights gained as the time has approached for the Revelation to see its completion….very soon now. As Proverbs 4:18 says…”The path of the righteous ones is like the bright lightthat is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”

God reveals what we need to know, when we need to know it…”food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45)

In the Bible the number seven is a symbol of completeness, and especially does Revelation stress that fact, “seven” appearing in the book some fifty times. To begin with, there are seven congregations, seven spirits, seven golden lampstands and seven stars.

We see Jesus singles out these 7 congregations as representative of all the congregations who need to hear Christ’s review of their progress or lack of it, since his departure. This gives them time to implement his recommendations before the time for his inspection.

After his opening remarks, John reports seeing a glorious vision of the resurrected Christ and hears the Creator speak of Himself as “the Alpha and the Omega.” (Rev 1:8)
Next, John names these seven congregations to whom he sends messages.…all in one location in the province of Asia.

First, he commends the congregation at Ephesus and then reproves it for having left its first love, but promises a reward upon repentance.
The congregation of Smyrna receives only commendation and the promise of the crown of life if faithful to death.
The congregations at Pergamum, Thyatira and Sardis are given both commendation and warnings. If they repent they are to be rewarded.
The congregation in Philadelphia, however, receives only commendation with a promise of reward.
The congregation at Laodicea, by contrast, receives only censure, because it is neither hot nor cold; but it is promised, if it repents and conquers, the reward of sitting with Jesus on his throne, even as he overcame and sat down with his Father on His throne. (Rev 2:1-3:22)

Our views concerning Jesus’ messages to these congregations is quite different to your own, but held by the entire brotherhood of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We are all taught and accept one truth, and no one disputes it because, as it was in the first century, there is only one ”body” made up of spirit anointed Christians who are leading and feeding Christ’s entire household in these last days. (Matt 24:45)

Yes, as Gentiles we are blessed to take the place of one of the national Jews, but that will only be until the last number of Gentiles is complete, THEN no more Gentiles will be saved and then national Israel will again be the focus of God. It will be the 144,000 Jewish virgins that will preach to them.

I have no idea where you have gained that idea. As it was in line with God’s promise to Abraham, “all nations” were to be blessed by the seed that would come in his lineage. And at Acts 10:34-35, Peter also confirms that God no longer takes nationality into account…
”At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that Gentiles will be excluded in any way. After all, it is not a person’s choice to be born into any particular nation, so why would God penalize someone for not being Jewish? That was the nation who showed by their conduct that they were unworthy of their choosing, which is why God abandoned them once his purpose in connection with them was complete. (Matt 23:37-39)

Gal 3:26-29….tells us….
”You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

What state do you live in?

I am on the south coast of New South Wales…originally from Sydney.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

First, he commends the congregation at Ephesus and then reproves it for having left its first love, but promises a reward upon repentance.
The congregation of Smyrna receives only commendation and the promise of the crown of life if faithful to death.
The congregations at Pergamum, Thyatira and Sardis are given both commendation and warnings. If they repent they are to be rewarded.
The congregation in Philadelphia, however, receives only commendation with a promise of reward.
The congregation at Laodicea, by contrast, receives only censure, because it is neither hot nor cold; but it is promised, if it repents and conquers, the reward of sitting with Jesus on his throne, even as he overcame and sat down with his Father on His throne. (Rev 2:1-3:22)

I see these as prophecies of 7 different eras from the beginning on the Day of Pentecost to the end.

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that Gentiles will be excluded in any way. After all, it is not a person’s choice to be born into any particular nation, so why would God penalize someone for not being Jewish? That was the nation who showed by their conduct that they were unworthy of their choosing, which is why God abandoned them once his purpose in connection with them was complete. (Matt 23:37-39)

Let me show you. First Romans 11:25-27 shows that there will be a set number of Gentiles that will believe in Christ. This is also shown in 2 Thess. 2:8-12 where God casts a strong delusion on the remaining civilization of Gentiles.

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [a]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

2 Thess. 2:8-12
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Then all Israel will be saved. Read Revelation 12 and 13. The woman is national Israel - the genealogy of Jesus. The last verse of chapter 12 shows that imperfect Christians (the offspring of Spiritual Israel who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ) will be on earth during the Great Tribulation to overcome and repent, but will be martyred because of the false doctrines they heard and believed up to the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is why the doctrine I believe is that the gospel is the power of God, and that only the righteous or holy will be saved.

Revelation 7:
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We know that these are already Christians going into the Great Tribulation because they already have "robes" and are not naked.

Looking at the world and especially the wickedness in the USA I believe the second coming of Jesus will be only a few years away. How about you?

I am on the south coast of New South Wales….originally from Sydney.

The south coast??? When you look into a mirror are you standing on your head?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I see these as prophecies of 7 different eras from the beginning on the Day of Pentecost to the end.

Not the way we see it at all…..each congregation had its specific merits and shortcomings, so that each was given opportunity to fix whatever was amiss in their particular congregation, which we know is a gathering together of Christ’s disciples who met for spiritual fellowship and instruction….all were to be of “the same mind and the same line of thought” as Paul said (1 Cor 1:10) so unless they repented of their wrong conduct, there was no salvation for them. Unity is a product of God’s spirit, so the Christ cannot "exist divided".

This is where I must ask you if you have a brotherhood who all believe as you do, and with whom you meet for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25) There was never a time when individuals in Christianity could go out on a limb by themselves in their interpretation of scripture…all had to be in agreement, holding one truth.

Let me show you. First Romans 11:25-27 shows that there will be a set number of Gentiles that will believe in Christ. This is also shown in 2 Thess. 2:8-12 where God casts a strong delusion on the remaining civilization of Gentiles.

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [a]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

We cannot discuss Romans 11 without referring to the olive tree….

In the illustration of the olive tree, the natural Jews who rejected Jesus are likened to olive branches that were “broken off.” (Rom. 11:17) They thereby lost the opportunity to become part of Abraham’s seed. But who would replace them? From the standpoint of the natural Jews, who prided themselves on their fleshly descent from Abraham, the answer would be unthinkable. But John the Baptizer had already forewarned them that if Jehovah wished to do so, he could raise up children to Abraham from the very stones. (Matt 3:7-10)

What, then, did Jehovah do to fulfill his purpose? Paul explains that branches from a wild olive tree were grafted onto the cultivated olive tree to replace those broken off. (Romans 11:17-18) Thus, spirit-anointed Christians of the nations, (Gentiles) to whom Paul was referring in the congregation in Rome, were figuratively grafted onto this symbolic olive tree. In this way they became part of Abraham’s seed. Originally, they were like wild olive branches, not having any opportunity to be a part of this special covenant. But Jehovah opened the way for them to become spiritual Jews. (Rom 2:28-29)

The “Israel” who is saved is therefore spiritual Israel….”the Israel of God”.