Does God need man?

[Big Boy Johnson]

I’ve also quoted you. I love irony.

Hang in their bud... you'll get it one of these days!

 

[Wick Stick]

As an earth-bound human, Paul was like all of God’s servants assigned to a particular ministry….he was told what he needed to know, when he needed to know it.….and to record what God's spirit told him to write.

It is true that he had visions like other servants did in the past, (like Ezekiel) but as to what “heaven” was, and where it was, no human was ever given that information succinctly, for the simple reason that it was beyond human comprehension at the time the Bible was written. Even today, with all our technical achievements, we would still not understand fully in our present imperfect state. So claiming to know fully what even the apostles were yet to experience is a bit presumptuous IMO. We know only what the Bible says, and it is sketchy at best.

Paul wasn't even sure whether his experience was real or not. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

What do you think I've claimed exactly? I don't have any sort of special revelation. I just have the Bible, and a willingness to work at understanding it.

Where in Matthew is this mentioned?
Since Matthew was a Jew, and knew God’s name, (though it was forbidden for Jews to utter it, the divine name was still in their written text) and being a disciple of Jesus, he would not have followed that Jewish practice that was contrary to God's instructions to Moses (Exodus 3:15)…..Jesus said he came to make God’s name known to his disciples.
John 17:6, 26….
“I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. . . . .I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

We know that later translators followed that unsanctioned Jewish tradition probably because the pronunciation of the divine name was long lost…..but not the name itself, which in older Greek manuscripts of the Septuagint, God’s name was written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. So they knew God’s name.

It doesn't really matter whether Matthew did it or later translators. The point was just that this is one of the allowable meanings of the word "heaven" within the Bible.

I find it hard to understand how anyone could come to that conclusion. If God is a “spirit” and spirits are invisible unless they manifest materially, (as angels did when delivering messages to God’s servants on earth) we cannot see them. God is invisible. (Col 1:15) How is that part of our reality?

It's just defining words. Spirit means "breath." It doesn't mean "ghosts," although that word appears in a few old Bible, which is a bit of bad translation that most recent Bibles have fixed. For there to be breath, there needs to be a body to breathe.

As for invisibility, there are plenty of things that are part of reality that are not visible. Wind is the classic example, and that seems very close to breath.

The activity of the demons was prevalent in Jesus’ day (as they are today). Demons are also “spirits” who followed satan in rebellion and materialized in Noah’s day, causing havoc among the human race, leading God to take drastic action to eliminate their gigantic and vile offspring that came from their cohabiting with human women. By causing a flood of unthinkable proportions, God eliminated these freakish offspring and sent their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where they were kept under restraint by not allowing them to ever materialize again. Faithful angels had no problem appearing in physical form thereafter, however.

If the demons had not left their human bodies, they too would have drowned in the flood. The worst they can do now is to take over the bodies of willing humans who like to dabble in the supernatural.…hence God’s law forbidding all forms of spiritism. (Deut 18:9-12)

Most of this... isn't in the Bible. It's a combination of extra information from Hebrew tradition (the Talmuds and 1Enoch) with some modern embellishments that are more science fiction than anything.

You're not going to find anything about spirits "materializing" in actual Scripture. You might find them moving from one body to another, but again... a body is a requirement.

God is all knowing (omniscient) but he is never said to be “omnipresent”.

The word omniscient isn't in the Bible, but the idea of an All-Seeing God sure is. Likewise, the word omnipresent doesn't need to be... present... for the idea to be be there.

He has a location which he never leaves.….simply because he doesn’t need to. He can move about in that realm, as we see in the grand celestial chariot in Ezekiel's vision.....but he has never set foot on earth.
Please present a scripture that says otherwise. Jesus prayed to his “Father…in heaven”…..Jesus was in human form on earth at the time.

“All seeing” and “all knowing” doesn’t change his location. (1 Kings 8:30, 39)

I already told you Psalm 139, but I guess I can quote:

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. 9 [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

There are others. The whole little book of Jonah is there to tell us that it's impossible to run away from God. Even at the bottom of the ocean, even in the underworld, God is everywhere.

Spirits are by their very nature “disembodied” from our human standpoint…..they dwell in a realm that humans cannot see or be present in, unless they are given the appropriate body…..yes, spirits have bodies but they are nothing like us.

The “chosen ones” will be given an appropriate body upon their resurrection so that they can dwell in the presence of God without it causing their death.

Hard disagree. When a spirit is separated from the body... that's death. The body is now a corpse, and the spirit ceases to exist as a separate thing, instead returning to God, waiting for the Resurrection, so that it can have a new body to live in.

Can I ask where you get these ideas? Do you have a brotherhood who also accepts these concepts or are they just your own beliefs obtained from reading the scriptures for yourself?

No, I didn't copy/paste my theology from some community as part of their liturgy or creed. But my theology also doesn't come from myself.

I read. I study. The Bible. Also history and other ancient books, usually in an attempt to understand the Bible.

As regards the meaning of "spirit," I found it helpful reading ancient texts on anatomy. In ancient times, they didn't understand anatomy in terms of a nervous system activating muscles and tendons and such. Instead, they understood life in terms of hydraulics and pneumatics - mirroring technologies they already understood.

Once I understood how the people in New Testament times would have understood human anatomy - which includes the idea of spirit -
I took that understanding back to the Bible, and re-read it with greater comprehension than before.

 

[Matthias]

Hang in their bud... you'll get it one of these days! View attachment 40260

But only if I cease reading, thinking and just let Big Boy Johnson decide for me. *wink, wink. nudge, nudge.*

If you haven’t read Augustine, who told you Augustine is a false teacher?

If you have read Augustine, why?

 

[Wick Stick]

Nowhere in all of scripture are we told to worship the son….he told us to worship only the Father. (Luke 4:5-8) The Greek word “pro·sky·neʹo“ corresponds closely to the Hebrew term “hish·ta·chawahʹ“ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. Context determines how the word is rendered…..if it is expressed towards God, it is “worship”, but rendered to a man, it is obeisance. Jesus was a man.

This started in Colossians 1:15, regarding the "image" of the invisible God. If you go look at that verse and word closely, you'll find that the Greek word there is εἰκὼν, which is an icon in English, and is sometimes translated as idol elsewhere in the Bible.

The verse isn't talking about God's visage (if He is invisible, then that's a non-sequitur). It's talking about setting up an icon for the purpose of directing worship to God. Now, mankind has been prohibited from making idols/icons since the very beginning, even ones for the true God. But this restriction does not apply to God Himself.

The idea in Colossians 1:15 is that God Himself has provided an icon - of Himself - for our benefit. And that icon is a Man - Jesus Christ - rather than some dumb chunk of rock or metal that men have fashioned artistically. We are meant to look on Jesus and direct our worship TO GOD.

Why avoid the can of worms? Start another thread on this topic and let’s discuss it….we are at least in the same time zone…

The Bible doesn't go into the study of angels very far, so most of what people believe has been injected from some other source. Some sources are better than others, but there isn't really an authoritative one to establish theology in this area.

And it seems to get weird.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you haven’t read Augustine, who told you Augustine is a false teacher?

If you have read Augustine, why?

Nutjob's doctrine can be found in catholic teachings, the teachings of the reformers, and the teachings of the gnostics

Actually, augustine was a pagan monk that followed Manichaeism and his father the devil had him bring this false doctrine with him when he claimed to have converted to Christianity

Manichaeism was quickly successful and spread far through Aramaic-speaking regions. It thrived between the third and seventh centuries, and at its height was one of the most widespread religions in the world. Manichaean churches and scriptures existed as far east as the Han Dynasty and as far west as the Roman Empire.

It was briefly the main rival to early Christianity in the competition to replace classical polytheism before the spread of Islam. Under the Roman Dominate, Manichaeism was persecuted by the Roman state and was eventually stamped out in the Roman Empire.

And this of course is when augustine played like he became a Christian

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you haven’t read Augustine, who told you Augustine is a false teacher?

If you have read Augustine, why?

For someone who claims to not have much in common with this guy... you sure ask lots of questions!

 

[Matthias]

Nutjob's doctrine can be found in catholic teachings, the teachings of the reformers, and the teachings of the gnostics

Actually, augustine was a pagan monk that followed Manichaeism and his father the devil had him bring this false doctrine with him when he claimed to have converted to Christianity

Manichaeism was quickly successful and spread far through Aramaic-speaking regions. It thrived between the third and seventh centuries, and at its height was one of the most widespread religions in the world. Manichaean churches and scriptures existed as far east as the Han Dynasty and as far west as the Roman Empire.

It was briefly the main rival to early Christianity in the competition to replace classical polytheism before the spread of Islam. Under the Roman Dominate, Manichaeism was persecuted by the Roman state and was eventually stamped out in the Roman Empire.

And this of course is when augustine played like he became a Christian

If you haven’t read him then you’ve let someone else tell you what to believe about him.

 

[Matthias]

For someone who claims to not have much in common with this guy... you sure ask lots of questions!
View attachment 40263

I’m asking in order to discover whether you have read him or not. Maybe you have, but it doesn’t sound like you have.

I believe it’s possible to agree with people in part. In order to do that, I have to know what they believe. Getting it straight from the horses’ mouth is the most reliable way.

From what little I know about you, you may have more in common with Augustine than I do.

Are you a trinitarian?

P.S. Have you read Catholic writers? Have you read the Reformers? Have you read the Gnostics? Or are you only relying on what you’ve heard others say about them?

 

[Wick Stick]

Gathered where?

1 Thess 4:15-17…
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

Where are the “chosen ones” who are still alive when Christ comes as judge? His elect will meet their Lord where the ”clouds“ are….”in the air”…..it is then that they are “transformed”, being given a new spirit body so as to join their Lord to complete his bride.

What is pictured here is the Lord descending upon the earth - His Return. Those gathered to meet him, yes in the air, meet Him as He descends TO THE EARTH. They stay on earth, they are just gathered to Him as He descends to... Jerusalem, I think?

Incidentally, why does the Lord have an archangel’s voice?

He doesn't.

In this chapter, the Lord's return is envisioned as an invasion. The Lord descends... at the time that the archangel shouts. It's a war-cry - basically... CHARGE!!! The invasion begins at the command.

I looked up “ἁρπάζω” and I assume you are a believer in the rapture? Is this something done against their will?
Is it an evil force that causes a transformation that they do not want? Or is it something they look forward to?
What was your point?

No - the point of looking up the word is to disprove "the rapture" idea of people going up into the heavens. They don't... they're gathered, but not to go up. They're gathered to meet the Lord as He comes down.

I was actually trying to figure out if this was all your own work, or something others taught you….it matters.

No Christian is at liberty to interpret scripture for themselves in isolation from others….if God’s spirit was directing them, they would all be in agreement because God’s spirit unites people…it does not divide them. Christendom is a disunited mess….no real evidence of God’s spirit is discernible in any of it.

If Christ taught us to be preachers of his truth, then who has it? They all preach something different.

Okay. It feels kinda bad to be asked, "are you a cult member?"

The “wheat” still exist even in a world overrun by the “weeds”....so who are they?

You can tell them apart by their fruits... well, that's what Jesus said.

As far as I can tell, that means that we shouldn't pay as much attention to what people say, so much as what they do. Words lie. Actions don't.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you haven’t read him then you’ve let someone else tell you what to believe about him.

I've heard enough of his doctrine to know for a fact he is in opposition
to God's Word... so no need to read any more of his garbage.

However You can enjoy his garbage all you want . . .

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

you may have more in common with Augustine than I do.

No, I have no agreement with satan or his followers

 

[Matthias]

I've heard enough of his doctrine to know for a fact he is in opposition
to God's Word... so no need to read any more of his garbage.

So then you’ve only heard about him.

Your limited knowledge of him may explain, in part, why you aren’t able to agree with him in part.

However You can enjoy his garbage all you want . . . View attachment 40264

I spend most of my extra-biblical reading time reading trinitarian authors, of which Augustine was one.

 

[Matthias]

No, I have no agreement with satan or his followers
View attachment 40265

You’ve been able to agree with me that God needs man, as well as agreeing with me on the issue of OSAS.

You still haven’t told me if you’re a trinitarian or not. Why is that?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You still haven’t told me if you’re a trinitarian or not. Why is that?

What does God Word say 'bout that???

Find that, and you'll have what I agree with.

And for your further education and spiritual growth.... satan always mixes some truth in with his lies.

It's how he gets maximum deception from his efforts is to mix in a little truth. That's the bait of satan.

So, a blind squirrel like augustine finding a nut occasionally... does not mean he's not a false teacher as you suppose

 

[Matthias]

What does God Word say 'bout that???

Fund that, and you'll have what I agree with.

So say also the trinitarians, of which Augustine (you’ve been told) was one.

I’ve never met a trinitarian who was reluctant when asked to acknowledge they were. Have I now?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So say also the trinitarians, of which Augustine was one.

He claimed to be a follow of Jesus too, so what?

For your further education and spiritual growth.... satan always mixes some truth in with his lies.

It's how he gets maximum deception from his efforts is to mix in a little truth. That's the bait of satan.

So, a blind squirrel like augustine finding a nut occasionally... does not mean he's not a false teacher as you suppose

 

[Matthias]

He claimed to be a follow of Jesus too, so what?

For your further education and spiritual growth.... satan always mixes some truth in with his lies.

Agreed.

It's how he gets maximum deception from his efforts is to mix in a little truth. That's the bait of satan.

Also agreed.

So, a blind squirrel like augustine finding a nut occasionally... does not mean he's not a false teacher as you suppose

That’s not what I suppose.

You don’t want to say if you’re a trinitarian or not. Why?

 

[Matthias]

When truth is mixed with lies, agree with the truth and reject the lies.

No matter who the speaker is @Big Boy Johnson.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

When truth is mixed with lies, agree with the truth and reject the lies.

No matter who the speaker is.

So, you don't mind quoting a known false teacher... which leads other
to possibly go read his stuff, get deceived, and end up in hell.

You all good with that???

 

[Matthias]

So, you don't mind quoting a known false teacher... which leads other
to possibly go read his stuff, get deceived, and end up in hell.

You all good with that???

You aren’t a trinitarian. I would still quote you and let others read what you write and decide for themselves if there is any truth in what you have written.

”You must accept the truth from whatever source that it comes.” - Maimonides