The Lake of Fire or Hell

[rwb]

WE must clearly understand what 'souls' are, they are the whole of the person, as we use 'there were 102 souls' lost on the ship, etc... We will get to heaven once we are given 'life' and risen up at the resurrection, Christ recreates us body and soul, (what makes us 'us, our whole personal characteristics) and we are taken up to heaven.

Yes, mortal/physical souls can be eternally lost. But mortal/physical souls having within them the life giving Spirit from Christ have life everlasting. So when the mortal/physical soul of believers die we have assurance from Christ that our spirit shall return to God in heaven ALIVE, still called living souls, but in heaven without physical form. That's why Christ tells the seven brothers who questioned Him about the resurrection, Christ told them in the resurrection we shall be as are the angels of God in heaven, celestial, spiritual body of believers there. Why? Because God is the God of the living and not of the DEAD.

God created man with body + breath of life (spirit) and together man became a "living soul." As long as life exists, whether physical or spirit, there is a living soul. We are given everlasting life through Christ's Spirit in us the moment we are born again! And that life shall NEVER perish, we have assurance from Christ of this TRUTH! Which is why believers need have no fear of mortal death, because death of our outer body simply means that we shall be present and alive with the Lord in heaven IF before death we have been born again.

 

[Logikos]

So, let me first of all say that I have not read through the thread and so if any of this is redundant then I apologize in advance for wasting your time.

This discussion about whether Hell is forever or not can get really deep into just a gigantic knot of weeds that is impossible to navigate and so whenever I'm asked about this I try to always start by acknowledging that the bible is just ambiguous enough about the nature of Hell as to offer anyone on either side plenty of wiggle room within which to fit their preferred position. In fact, for a long time I refused to be anything remotely near dogmatic about the subject for that very reason.

I have since been convinced that Hell is indeed forever. That no one, whether saved or unsaved, will ever cease to exist and that the only question is whether they will exist alone apart from God or anyone else they could harm or will they exist with God and with those whom they love and who love them in return.

Incidentally, for the sake of clarity, when I use the term "Hell", I am referring to that place where people will go to spend the rest of their unending existence apart from God and anyone else whom they might could harm. The terminology in the bible implies a distinction between "Hell" and "The Lake of Fire" which I tend to ignore because it has to do with what certain words mean in the original language and all that sort of thing and it generally serves only to muddy the water and leads to fruitless discussions that belong more in the mouths of lawyers than in the mouths of Christians.

So, why do I think Hell is forever? Well, the short answer is because, if it isn't, Christ need not have died.

You see, it had to be God doing the dying because the problem He fixed by doing so wasn't/isn't a finite problem. If Hell is temporary then, regardless of how many are sent there, it is a finite issue. God, being of infinite power, would then be able to create a being of sufficient (while still finite) value to use as a sacrifice to pay that debt. No such being was/is possible precisely because the issue is NOT finite in nature but infinite. Thus, God's own life is the only coin of sufficient value to pay the debt and so He became a man and willingly paid it.

 

[Jack]

Don't have to. God's Word does it!

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

So this doesn't apply to you and yet you want to take responsibity for doing so.


I don't need to "interpret". God's Word is clear.

1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

So this doesn't apply to you having an interpretation. Because you haven't had an aha moment. But when you do, you will need to interpret the meaning of the "revelation" that a certain verse or concept has been revealed to you.

(ἑρμηνεύω), interpretation (of what has been spoken more or less obscurely by others):

Psa 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Mat 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

1. proverb, parable
   1. proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism
   2. byword
   3. similitude, parable
   4. poem
   5. sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims

Aphorism​

An aphorism is a concise, terse, laconic, or memorable expression of a general truth or principle. Aphorisms are often handed down by tradition from generation to generation. The concept is generally distinct from those of an adage, brocard, chiasmus, epigram, maxim, principle, proverb, and saying; although some of these concepts may be construed as types of aphorism. Often, aphorisms are distinguished from other short sayings by the need for interpretation to make sense of them. Wikipedia

Satan hates the Literal Christian Bible! He wants our company in Hell, "forever and ever".

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Devour:
kat-ap-ee'-no; from G2596 and G4095; to drink down, i.e. gulp entire (literally or figuratively):—devour, drown, swallow (up).

Isa 5:13
Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isa 5:14
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 5:15
And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:
Isa 5:16
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Eze 32:18
Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.

Hmm... Who is the Son of Man that casts them down unto the nether parts of the earth?

You can't claim your job is to go into the fire and pull people out, using the "literal" wording, and then turn around and use the Word of God as a "metaphorical" reference. It's either/or . right?

Do you understand the parab;e of the ten virgins and how do you interpret it? or is this meant in the literal sense?

Mat 25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

What are the lamps and what is the oil? Are they literal lamps and oil or do they have a spiritual interpretation?

If there is something in you that is sinful or opposed to God's ways. Satan is going to amplify and tempt you with the very thing that is weak in you. If you are covetous, he will convince you to steal. If you are strong then he has no power over you and you won't steal.
Satan attacks those who don't know God's word and his promises. That's why we are told to study and show ourselves approved unto God.

He can trip you up in the scriptures and twist them so you hear what you want to hear.
If you are authoritative and judgmental, he will have you use the scriptures to attack people.
If you are gentle and meek, he has no power over you, it is God's spirit which leads you to to find peace with people.

Satan has no power over you accept what power you give him.

Put on the armour of God and wear it always.
Hugs

You can't chop out Bible that you don't like and be a Christian!

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;

 

[Ziggy]

You can't chop out Bible that you don't like and be a Christian!

Psalm 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Jack]

You didn't answer my question.

You don't like Biblical answers.

 

[Ziggy]

You don't like Biblical answers.

I asked you how you understood the parable of the ten virgins.
I posted the entire parable above.
I'll be waiting.
Hugs

 

[Jack]

I asked you how you understood the parable of the ten virgins.
I posted the entire parable above.
I'll be waiting.
Hugs

"You don't like Biblical answers."

 

[Ziggy]

"You don't like Biblical answers."

I'm asking for your insight. I'm looking for a conversation.
If you don't want to have a conversation, then don't reply back to me and have a nice day.
Hugs

 

[Jack]

I'm asking for your insight. I'm looking for a conversation.
If you don't want to have a conversation, then don't reply back to me and have a nice day.
Hugs

Why do you want my "insight" but not God of the Bible's??? I think you've been duped by Satan.

 

[Logikos]

"Death" NEVER means cease to exist for humans in the Bible.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Why add the qualifier, "for humans"?

 

[Jack]

Why add the qualifier, "for humans"?

Some things do cease to exist, but not people. One example, Sodom.

 

[Logikos]

Some things do cease to exist, but not people. One example, Sodom.

Ah! Of course. I see what you're getting at.

I read it as you making a distinction between humans vs. other persons like demons, angels or even God Himself, Who died for our sin at Calvary. Of course, there is the fact that God became a human and then died but still, the point is that I wasn't reading your comment as referring to regular material objects or the animals.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Unsaved humans will suffer the exact same fate as Satan, forever and ever.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yep, that about wraps this one up!

 

[keithr]

I have since been convinced that Hell is indeed forever. That no one, whether saved or unsaved, will ever cease to exist ...

David wrote, Psalms 39:13 (WEB):

(13) Oh spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go away, and exist no more.”​

God said about Satan, Ezekiel 28:19 (WEB):

(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”​

Being cast into a lake of fire and sulphur, is symbolic of besing destroyed, i.e. dying. Revelation 21:8 (WEB):

(8) But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Paul wrote, 1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV):

(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

​

Similarly hell will be destroyed - Revelation 20:14 (KJV):

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

So just as there will be no more death - Revelation 21:4 (WEB):

(4) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”​

so likewise hell will be no more.

The terminology in the bible implies a distinction between "Hell" and "The Lake of Fire" which I tend to ignore because ...

Every small detail of the Scriptures are there for a reason - Matthew 5:18 (WEB):

(18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.​

So, why do I think Hell is forever? Well, the short answer is because, if it isn't, Christ need not have died.

You see, it had to be God doing the dying because the problem He fixed by doing so wasn't/isn't a finite problem. If Hell is temporary then, regardless of how many are sent there, it is a finite issue. God, being of infinite power, would then be able to create a being of sufficient (while still finite) value to use as a sacrifice to pay that debt. No such being was/is possible precisely because the issue is NOT finite in nature but infinite. Thus, God's own life is the only coin of sufficient value to pay the debt and so He became a man and willingly paid it.

You misunderstand again. God cannot die - He is immortal - 1 Timothy 6 (WEB):

(13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, ...​

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

John 1:18 (WEB):

(18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.​

To redeem mankind (buy back the right to life, eternal life, for mankind) a perfect, sinless human man had to sacrifice his life in order to pay Adam's penalty for his sin (before he sinned he was a perfect, sinless man, who would have lived forever as long as he didn't sin). All men are descended from Adam and have inherited his corrupted, dying nature, and all have sinned, so no man could pay that price. God could not become a mortal man and die, because He is immortal (and if He died who could restore Him to life again?). The created angels are also mortal and susceptible to sin (a third of all angels sided with Satan), so God chose His only-begotten son to pay the redemption price. That is why God prepared a human body for Jesus - Hebrews 10:5 (WEB):

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

and God changed His son's mortal spirit being nature to a mortal human being. As you know, Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life and willingly sacrificed his life on the cross to pay the redemption price for all mankind. God then, 3 days later, raised Jesus to life again, giving him an immortal spirit being (divine) nature. John 5:26 (WEB):

(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.​

Jesus will return to the earth, all the dead will be resurrected, and he will rule mankind with righteousness and a rod of iron for 1,000 years, and then judge who is worthy of eternal life. Those not found worthy will be destroyed (they will die a second time, permanently this time). At that point there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain ever again (so definitely no torment in "hell"). Death and hell are temporary, a problem that God is in the process of fixing.

Revelation 21:5 (WEB):

(5) He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words of God are faithful and true.”​

1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV):

(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

 

[Jack]

Isn't it interesting how the Hell deniers avoid what Jesus and the NT said about the "everlasting fire"! Sounds like candidates for Hell fire!

 

[Ziggy]

Isn't it interesting how the Hell deniers avoid what Jesus and the NT said about the "everlasting fire"! Sounds like candidates for Hell fire!

It's that people who believe God trust in his Grace and Mercy.
While others choose to follow condemnation.

Hugs

 

[Jack]

It's that people who believe God trust in his Grace and Mercy.
While others choose to follow condemnation.

Hugs

You've been duped by Satan.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[keithr]

Isn't it interesting how the Hell deniers avoid what Jesus and the NT said about the "everlasting fire"! Sounds like candidates for Hell fire!

Isn't it interesting that those who want to believe that God is the most evil being to have ever lived, who would plan to torture millions of people for all eternity (and yet wants us to love Him and be happy, despite Him continuously torturing our loved ones), avoid and ignore all the many more verses that talk about the wicked being destroyed, perishing, never to live again - such as all the verses quoted in posts 2 and 4 of this thread. Why do they ignore the clear, plain verses that tell of destruction, and assume the one verse, in the most symbolic and difficult to understand book of the Bible, must be literally true? If one verse does not appear to be in harmony with dozens of other plain verses, you should assume you have misunderstood the one verse, and not ignore all the other clear verses which describe a different outcome. Sounds like they have been deceived and misled by Satan - it's what he does! Satan tries to turn us away from believing and trusting God, and to make God seem evil (Isaiah 5:20, WEB: Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!).

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (WEB):

(7) ... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,​

(8) punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,​

(9) who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

The second death is not eternal life!

Edit:
I just found this very good webpage that explains it better and in more detail than I have done - A Primer on Revelation 20:10.

 

[Bob Estey]

We see many passages in scripture on the Lake of Fire and who is going to be cast there.
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So what is this lake of fire that the Bible speaks of, is it what Christian call 'Hell'? Well Christ gives us some clues when He said 'As in the Days of Lot', we find it in Luke 17:28.
Luke 17:28
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

It was just another day, and was starting as usual, and folks were waking up and eating their morning meal and having their morning beverage and doing everything they did every other morning, it looked like another great day and then suddenly everything changed. We see it in the next part of the text:
Luke 17:29-30
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So what did Jesus mean by this. Well lets look what was happening 'in the days of Lot'.
10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

Lot had picked out a place to settle in and it looks like a good choice with good sources of refreshing water and nice vegetation all around, but there was a problem. The people there it says 'were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.' and as a result of that, after years of patience God sent two angels to Sodom and we know how they were treated by the people of Sodom. The angels went to Lot’s home. Abraham meanwhile, was certainly praying for Lot who was his nephew because God had clued him in that Sodom was doomed. And the angels told Lot to basically, get out of town, and escape for your life, and dont look behind you, escape to the mountains lest you be,” what? The angels say to get out lest you be 'consumed', lest you be burnt up. We see it in Genisis

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

You see Lot went to his family, his daughters and sons in law and said, God’s told me this place is doomed get out of town now. But they mocked him like he was a religious fanatic. Can that happen again? Well finally the angels said, we can’t wait any longer, escape for your life, lest you be 'consumed in the iniquity of the city.' And the Bible says he got out of town and the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. It rained down and it destroyed the city in basically a lake of fire, not the one that will be at the end, but Christ was giving a very true picture of what will happen at the end.

So what does the Bible teach about this lake of fire, which is what the bible calls, 'Hell' for sinners and those not in the book of Life. Is the devil in charge of hell? The Bible gives us solemn warnings about a day of destruction coming. Jesus speaks also of Noah's day with the same warning He gives about Lot and his family in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Matthew 24:36-39
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

There is a reward of the wicked and sinners, the punishment, that will eternally destroy them and all evil. The wages of sin is not eternal torment, but death in the lake of fire, which is the final place for the wicked and sinners before the Lord, which is the hell we are shown by scripture.

For me, the lake of fire is the consequences of our sin. If I rob a bank, I go to prison. I don't think any of us would enjoy prison.

 

[Ziggy]

For me, the lake of fire is the consequences of our sin. If I rob a bank, I go to prison. I don't think any of us would enjoy prison.

There's always a chance you can get out on good behavior.

Hugs