Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I could share the money I stole with the judge - he might drop charges.There's always a chance you can get out on good behavior.
Hugs
The Lake of Fire or Hell
- Thread starter Hobie
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Nah, then they would get you on bribery. I wouldn't do that. LOL
Logikos
Active Member
These are figures of speech. "on this Earth" is implied.
Unresponsive. This is just you restating your doctrine by reading your doctrine into the text.
I never suggested otherwise.
If God the Son didn't die for our sin, then Christianity is false and this discussion is moot.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people on your side of this debate run toward denying the most central doctrine of the entire Christian faith in order to defend such a strained and rather obscure doctrine that, generally speaking, almost no one believes.
I don't need your biased JW explanation. I have the written Word of God. Billions of humans will suffer the exact same fate as Satan!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Says who? The ASV translates it as, Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.
I've never heard of that figure of speech before! It's quite clear and precise. A literal translation translates it as (LSV):
(19) All knowing you among the peoples || Have been astonished at you, || You have been terrors, and you are not—for all time.”
Having no being or existence, for eternity, does not mean "not existing on the earth, but existing elsewhere". That is a totally ilogical interpretation. And remember all the other verses that talk about destruction (not just destruction on the earth), such as the preceding verses, Ezekiel 28 (KJV):
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
and Paul writing, Hebrews 2:14 (KJV):
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
I've no idea what you mean by that one word sentence!
It seems straightforward enough to me. If you can't understand it then there is no more that I can say about it to help you understand. It reminds me of Jesus' words, Matthew 13:13-15 (WEB):
(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand.
(14) In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:
(15) for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again; and I would heal them.’
Yet you wrote:
"the bible implies a distinction between "Hell" and "The Lake of Fire" which I tend to ignore
You should not ignore Scripture just because you don't yet fully uderstand it. 2 Timothy 3:16 (WEB):
(16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
The expression "God the Son" does not exist in the Bible. You have been confused by believing in the Trinity doctrine - a false doctrine (which we're not allowed to discuss on this forum, sadly). The expression "Son of God" does occur many times, 40 - 48 times (depending on which Bible translation you use). Jesus is God's only-begotten Son; he is not God. As I wrote, God cannot die because He is immortal, and He said, Malachi 3:6 (WEB):
(6) “For I, Yahweh, don’t change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Numbers 23:19 (WEB):
(19) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?
God is not a man, and He has never changed to become a man, and He has never died for our sins. It was God's Son, Jesus, that became a man. This is basic, or foundational, stuff - get the basics wrong and you're destined to go off on a tangent into error and confusion.
John 1:18 (KJV):
(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(Now, "in the bosom of the father" is a figure of speech! Albert Barnes' Notes says, "This expression is taken from the custom among the Orientals of reclining at their meals. It denotes intimacy, friendship, affection. Here it means that Jesus had a knowledge of God such as one friend has of another - knowledge of his character, designs, and nature which no other one possesses, and which renders him, therefore, qualified above all others to make him known.")John 3:16 (KJV):
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9,10 (KJV):(9) In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
(10) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 5:5 (KJV):
(5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
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There has been no mention of JW. You obviously didn't bother to read the linked webpage - A Primer on Revelation 20:10. It has nothing to do with JWs.
Logikos
Active Member
It is forbidden to mention the Trinity on this purportedly Christian website and so I will simply say this...
If you do not believe that God Himself died for your sin, you are not saved and if you physically die in that condition, you will pay your own sin debt. Therefore repent and believe that your sins may be blotted out and that you may live. While there is life, there is hope but when death comes, so also comes the judgment.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
The Mormons, JW's, "believe in Jesus," but not the Lord Jesus Christ of the scripture...There is one God (See Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:5).
The Lord Jesus Christ is both God, and man. (John 1:1, John 1:14; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, etc, etc, etc.)
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Lord Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, ties himself to the Great "I Am," the LORD God, that appeared to Moses, at the "burning bush," and thus, tells everyone, who has "ears to hear," that if you do not believe He is God, you will die in your sins. If the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, He is in no position to claim to be the "lamb without blemish, sinless, the satisfactory sacrifice (propitiation) and in no position to save anyone.
QED.
That's the gospel and that's what unbelievers hear from me. I DO NOT debate Christian doctrine with unbelievers - period.
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That's just a fake quote from some annihilationists that created their own fake bible translation so they could say "hey man, it's what the Bible says"
Fake news, you lose!
Well, when you see them being consumed, I think it will be more than a 'figure of speach'...
If you deny the CLEAR Biblical doctrine of the everlasting Hell fire, you're in JW territory, and that ain't good!
Logikos
Active Member
Is this just the way it goes on this website?
Is Christianity Board where people go to spend all the time and effort it takes to think through and then type up actual arguments either in favor of their doctrine or in rebuttal of someone else's and then, instead of any substantive response where both participants are challenged to think and to hone their ability to defend their doctrine and to give an answer when challenged, that effort is met with what amounts to being ignored and blown off as though nothing was said. It's as if everyone here thinks that Christian doctrine is all a matter of personal opinion and that there isn't any such thing as factual truth that stands whether it tickles one's ear or not.
Who would think that this is fun or interesting enough to be worth their time? I seriously do not get it!
I mean look, where is the profit in your having posted that single sentence? I made a whole argument for why I believe that Hell is forever which gives solid reason to interpret the single sentence proof texts offered by some on this thread as being "figures of speech" (for want of a better term). Why not address the actual argument that I made? You don't ever have to be convinced but ignoring it just wastes everyone's time, including yours.
Hmm, you come very close to discussing the Trinity towards the end of your post!
That's not what the Bible says you need to do to be saved. The great prophet John the baptist said, John 3:35-36 (WEB):
(35) The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
(36) One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
Jesus said, John 5:24 (WEB):
(24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:47 (WEB):(47) Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.
John 17:3 (WEB):(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:9 (WEB):
if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Preaching that Jesus is God is preaching another Jesus that the Apostles did not preach. Paul wrote in that same letter to the Corinthians,
2 Corinthians 1:3 (WEB):
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
Jesus never claimed he was God, but he repeatedly stated that God was his God, and his Father, too:
John 10:36 (WEB):
(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
John 20:17 (WEB):(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Revelation 2:7 (WEB):(7) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.
Revelation 3:2 (WEB):(2) Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God.
Revelation 3:12 (WEB):(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
As Martha said, John 11:27 (WEB):
(27) She said to him, “Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Christ, God’s Son, he who comes into the world.”
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That's a ridulous claim to make - it sounds like you have no sensible counter argument. If you don't like your American Satandard Version translation, then look into it more deeply yourself, rather than making yourself look stupid by claiming it's a fake quote.
Try the KJV, Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
According to Stong's about the Hebrew word ayin (emphasis mine):
ay'-yin
As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle: - else, except, fail [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without.
Are all these translations (from the Bible Hub) fake too? :
New International Version
All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.'"
New Living Translation
All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more.”
English Standard Version
All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.”
Berean Study Bible
All the nations who know you are appalled over you. You have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’ ”
New American Standard Bible
“All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.”’”
NASB 1995
"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"
NASB 1977
“All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified, And you will be no more.”’”
Amplified Bible
“All the peoples (nations) who knew you Are appalled at you; You have come to a horrible and terrifying end And will forever cease to be.”’”
Christian Standard Bible
All those who know you among the peoples are appalled at you. You have become an object of horror and will never exist again.’ ”
Holman Christian Standard Bible
All those who know you among the nations are appalled at you. You have become an object of horror and will never exist again."
Contemporary English Version
and the people of other nations are shocked. Your punishment was horrible, and you are gone forever.
Good News Translation
You are gone, gone forever, and all the nations that had come to know you are terrified, afraid that they will share your fate."
GOD'S WORD® Translation
All the nations who knew you are horrified because of you. You have come to a terrible end, and you will never exist again.'"
International Standard Version
Everyone who knows you throughout all the nations will be appalled at your calamity and you will no longer exist forever."'"
NET Bible
All who know you among the peoples are shocked at you; you have become terrified and will be no more.'"
Classic Translations
King James Bible
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
New King James Version
All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.”
King James 2000 Bible
All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a horror, and never shall you be anymore.
New Heart English Bible
All those who know you among the peoples shall be astonished at you: you have become a terror, and you shall nevermore have any being."
World English Bible
All those who know you among the peoples shall be astonished at you: you have become a terror, and you shall nevermore have any being.
American King James Version
All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.
American Standard Version
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.
A Faithful Version
All who know you among the people shall be astonished at you; you became a terror, and you will not be any more." ? "
Darby Bible Translation
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be amazed at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.
English Revised Version
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.
Webster's Bible Translation
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Early Modern
Geneva Bible of 1587
All they that knowe thee among the people, shalbe astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terrour, and never shalt thou be any more.
Bishops' Bible of 1568
Al they that haue ben acquainted with thee among the heathen shalbe abashed at thee: thou hast ben a terrour, and never shalt thou be any more.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
All they that haue bene acquaunted with the amonge the Heithe, shalbe abasshed at the: seinge thou art so clene brought to naught, and comest no more vp.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
All knowing you among the peoples "" Have been astonished at you, "" You have been terrors, and you are not—for all time.”
Young's Literal Translation
All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.'
Smith's Literal Translation
All knowing thee among the peoples were astonished at thee: thou wert terrors; and thou not, even to forever.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
All that shall see thee among the nations, shall be astonished at thee: thou art brought to nothing, and thou shalt never be any more.
Catholic Public Domain Version
All who gaze upon you among the Gentiles will be stupefied over you. You were made out of nothing, and you shall not be, forever.”
Translations from Aramaic
Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And all who know you among the people shall be ashamed at you, for you have been for destruction and you are not to eternity
Lamsa Bible
All those who know you among the people shall be astonished at you; you shall be brought to destruction, and you never shall be any more.
OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'
Brenton Septuagint Translation
And all that know thee among the nations shall groan over thee: thou art gone to destruction, and thou shalt not exist any more.
I can't find any translation which translates it to any other meaning than "you shall exist no more forever".
Logikos
Active Member
That's my line.
I showed you otherwise.
As I said, I do not debate Christian doctrine with unbelievers.
Your BULLony is nothing but a bunch of BULL that is in opposition to Jesus Christ said on the issue!
And yes, many modern translation change wording to accommodate certain false beliefs such as annihilationism
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No you didn't. You just stated what you believed, not giving any Bible verses as evidence to support your claims. I showed you Bible verses that say what you need to be saved. You simply stated:
Jesus spent most of his ministry time preaching and teaching the people, and the apostles followed suit. Yet you won't?
In this thread, discussing with Christian believers, you've added to the word of God, claiming it says things which it doesn't - that God died. You risk this:
Proverbs 30:5-6 (WEB):
(5) “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
(6) Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.
Of God the Bible says, Revelation 4:8 (WEB):
(8) The four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within. They have no rest day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come!”
i.e. God has never died, and never will, whereas Jesus said, Revelation 1:18 (WEB):
(18) ... I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades.
Hey, actual "Mormon" here. If you are open to hearing about how I love Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, and every word of the Bible, Yes, there is a single God, and the Father/Son/Spirit are 3 different divine persons. I'd be happy to explain it you. Zero prostylzing, just explaining what I actually believe. If you're not interested and just want to beat the "anti-cult" drum, I totally acknowledge that.
Logikos
Active Member
Don't lie! I posted not only bible verses but an entire argument based on those verses.
You really should at least try to remember that the entire thread is still here for the entire world to read!
Here it is again, on the same page of the internet that we are currently on, by the way....
If you do not believe that God Himself died for your sin, you are not saved and if you physically die in that condition, you will pay your own sin debt. Therefore repent and believe that your sins may be blotted out and that you may live. While there is life, there is hope but when death comes, so also comes the judgment.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
The Mormons, JW's, "believe in Jesus," but not the Lord Jesus Christ of the scripture...There is one God (See Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:5).
The Lord Jesus Christ is both God, and man. (John 1:1, John 1:14; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, etc, etc, etc.)
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Lord Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, ties himself to the Great "I Am," the LORD God, that appeared to Moses, at the "burning bush," and thus, tells everyone, who has "ears to hear," that if you do not believe He is God, you will die in your sins. If the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, He is in no position to claim to be the "lamb without blemish, sinless, the satisfactory sacrifice (propitiation) and in no position to save anyone.
QED.
That "QED" at the end stands for the Latin phrase, "quod erat demonstrandum", it translates to "which was to be demonstrated". It's used to say that the preceding is more than a mere argument but that what was at question is no longer, that it has been proven. All your a-priori proof-texting, when presented without any attempt to refute the above argument, amounts to little more than you trying to say that the bible contradicts itself, which lends only to undermining your own position. Such is almost always the case when an unbeliever attempts to teach me doctrine. It is weren't so tragic, it would be rather funny.
Logikos
Active Member
You will go to Hell forever if you do not get out of that cult!
You know nothing at all about the actual Jesus Christ. You've been lied too - probably for your entire life.
19 Random Reasons I Am Not a Mormon....
- Joseph's many wives and sexual sin Click here.
- Brigham (Liked 'Em) Young Click here.
- Failed civil war prophecy Click here.
- No Evidence Talk to them
- DNA Evidence Click here.
- Mormons discuss Hill Cumorah Click here.
- Jericho's Walls prove the Bible Click here.
- Failed David W. Patten prophecy Click here.
- The Book of Abraham Click here.
- Pagan worship used for the book of Abraham Click here.
- Early Christians Corroborated about the Resurrection Click here.
- Mormonism contradicts the Bible Read all of Paul's epistles
- Mormons say "trust your heart" Talk to any Mormon missionary
- Awful translations Click here.
- Mormons don't use the translation they believe was inspired by God Click here.
- I was wrong about how much money the Mormon church has. It's way more Click here.
- LDS discredit the Bible Click here.
- Astronomical Evidence for the Bible: The Pleiades is Bound Click here. The belt of Orion is loose Click here.
- Cowdery left the faith Click here. Christ's followers didn't Click here.
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