Yes, Jerusalem was literally surrounded by armies and yes they literally fled. And to add to this yes they literally saw the AOD stand in the holy place.
Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.
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3 Resurrections
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Anyone living in Judea who received the news of Jerusalem the city being surrounded by the Roman armies in AD 66 might not have been direct observers (optanomai) of it happening with their own eyes. However, when those in Judea received the news and became aware (eido) of the city of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, they were supposed to flee from Judea for the mountains anyway. The entire country of Judea was going to be overrun with armies conquering their cities one by one, and flight from Judea as well as from the city of Jerusalem became necessary for survival.
This flight from Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains was recorded by historians of that period, so Christ's warning was obeyed by many.
And how do you propose they did that when interpreters who insist they did, they all can't seem to agree what it was they saw? Why should this AOD still be a mystery as to what it was if it has already been fulfilled according to many interpreters?
I didn't say eido never means visibly seeing. I said the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel does not mean visibly seeing. If that were the case the word "shall see" would have been translated from the Greek word optánomai which means to see something with eyes wide open, looking at, and watching whatever is physically happening. Where eido is sometimes translated to physically see as is the case of physically seeing the Roman army surround Jerusalem. Jerusalem being surrounded by the Roman army is not abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel. Of course we all understand it was a literal army, coming with physical destruction of the city in mind. While it is true Jerusalem was left desolate just as God had said they would be. But the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel was spiritual, not physical. That's why it is not only Jerusalem that was the spiritual representation of God on earth that the disciples of Christ must understand has become a spiritual wasteland, forsaken by God, so too within the Church on earth. When the Church that is also the spiritual representation of God on earth has spiritually within abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel, disciples of Christ must spiritually discern the desolate, abominable Church, like Jerusalem of Old is no longer the spiritual representation of God on earth, and faithful believers should flee from there.
Do a study of abomination and desolation to try to understand how Old Covenant Israel had abomination that made Her a desolation unto God long before the first advent of Christ. We are called to understand, have knowledge of, and know what abomination that makes desolate is if we are to have the right understanding.
Well I can’t speak for anyone else but I think the AOD was the daily sacrifice being resumed on the altar after the veil was torn.
Assuming that is what the AOD was, the logic would be the following then.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
IOW---When ye therefore shall see 'the daily sacrifice being resumed on the altar after the veil was torn', stand in the holy place, then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
The fact that was an ongoing thing for at least 40 years, the daily sacrifice being resumed on the altar after the veil was torn, when they saw that the daily sacrifice was resumed on the altar, did they then do the following, hundreds, maybe even thousands of times, throughout the 40 years, flee into the mountains, and the other things this passage says to do when you see the AOD stand in the holy plave?
Of course they didn't flee to the mountains numerous different times throughout this 40 year period. Therefore, your theory is debunked since they failed to do what the text says to do when initially seeing the AOD stand in the holy place.
Take a closer look at Matthew 24:15, when you see the AOD, whoso readeth let him understand. The instructions are that when a person sees the AOD they are to read Daniel, understand it, and then flee based on their understanding of Daniel.
Meaning this, prior to the AOD they didn’t understand Daniel but when they saw the AOD, Daniel was unsealed and they were then able to understand Daniel and knew that it was when Jerusalem got surrounded by armies that that would be when to flee.
Luke tells us in Luke 1:3 that he had perfect or more accurate understanding. Luke doesn’t mention the AOD, he read Daniel and understood it and put it in a more plain way where a person didn’t have to read about the AOD in Daniel to get it.
Why don't you believe that Luke 21:20 interprets Matthew 24:15 and identifies the AOD as the armies desolating Jerusalem?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No one fled in 70AD. The verse was referring to the mass of Roman armies in 66AD. That is when they fled, and were told to never return.
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
They fled prior to the desolation. They were not to return until it was safe and the desolation was ended. Certainly not return in 67AD because it was safe. It would take another 3 years before the desolation and destruction became evident.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not even Josephus saw an AoD stand in the holy place. You seem to know more than even Josephus who was an eye witness. How old are you?
Provide an example elsewhere from Scripture that supports armies being an abomination. If I can see a Scripture that supports this theory, maybe then I might rethink some of this. Personally, I don't seem to recall reading anywhere in the Bible that armies are connected with an abomination, especially armies that are surrounding something.
When I say involving 70 AD, I'm basically meaning everything involved with that, including events leading up to it, which 66 AD would be.
Did Josephus ever write anything in his accounts pertaining to what happened in those days about anything involving an AOD standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not?
I get where you are coming from I think, yet I disagree since I take nothing pertaining to Matthew 24:15 to be involving 70 AD events. In my mind, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, I see zero reason to take Matthew 24:15-16 in the literal sense, where one is literally in Judea in the middle east then fleeing to literal mountains in the vicinity. If that has to be understood in the literal sense, why stop there? Why not insist Matthew 24:29, for example, is also meaning in the literal sense, that there are literal stars literally falling from heaven?
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Based on Scripture where do you read that in? That is speculation and assumption. Notice your keyword: "I think."
Come on man, you don’t really need a Sunday school 101 lesson do you?
If for some reason you think the continuation of the daily sacrifice of the lamb after the veil was torn was not an abomination or that it did not result in desolation then you need to prove that. All evidence points to it being an abomination that made desolate, you might not think it qualifies as the AOD in Daniel but I do.
Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The Roman armies were the people of the prince Messiah, His servants of judgment and desolating destruction upon the city and sanctuary. Daniel describes it as "the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate". The pagan ensigns which the Roman armies bore into battle and worshiped were abominations to the monotheistic Jews.
Daniel 9:26,27 is thus corroborated by Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That would mean that the apostle Paul was involved in the AoD. Acts 21:26-27
"Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,"
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Luke is not interpreting another author. Luke is giving the public discourse from the Temple. Matthew is given the private discourse with the disciples.
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