Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.

[rwb]

The very verse you provide Matthew 24:14 supports my argument that Matthew 24 is speaking to a future generation than that of the disciples

Had the gospel been preached to all the world nations in the disciples 1st century AD Generation "No"

You seem to have me confused with Preterits?? I've never said the Gospel of the Kingdom of God had been preached unto all the world within the first century. Even though Paul seems to indicate the Gospel had been preached unto the all world known then, we know that could only be the known world, otherwise why continue to preach the Gospel? We should look at "all the world" as being the same world that should be taxed by Caesar Augustus. The Gospel of the Kingdom of God must be a witness to all nations of the world, and since many nations have been born long after the first century AD, we know the Gospel could not have been a witness to nations that were not in existence then.

Luke 2:1 (KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Both Preterits and Futurists make the same mistake of trying to force the prophetic words of Christ spoken from the mount of Olives to fulfillment within one very specific period of time. The words Christ spoke are not to be limited to any one specific time 70 AD, nor are His words are not to be limited to the very end of time just before Christ returns the second time. Christ is speaking to His Church on earth about things His disciples will be called to endure by faith as they are sent unto all the nations of the world to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

And one thing is without ambiguity, Christ will not come again until the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has completed the task for which it is being sent, that is to complete the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as people from all nations hear the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit and come into the spiritual Kingdom of God when they are born again through the Spirit of Christ in them.

What was not understood before the Spirit had been sent to man after Christ ascended to heaven is how the Kingdom of God is entered, and how man might enter that which is not visible but is within you. That's why these first century disciples of Christ needed a sign that the spiritual Kingdom of God was not being preached in vain, but that it was indeed accomplishing the purpose for which it was sent.

Christ told them how they would know the Gospel of the Kingdom of God was being built as it was preached as they would see people come alive spiritually through the power of God. There would be spiritual life seen in the fig tree (Israel) and all trees (Gentiles) where before there had only been darkness through unbelief and fear of death.

The nation that had been cursed by Christ to never have spiritual life within again, through a remnant of Jews there would be a remnant according to election of grace (Ro 11:5) to show they too had come into the spiritual Kingdom of God when they heard the Gospel of the Kingdom preached and by the power of the Holy Spirit they repented and turned to Christ in faith believing in Him.

These first Jewish Christians were the beginning of the "chosen generation" (1Pe 2:9) or "this generation" joining with the disciples of Christ that would expand to be an innumerable multitude and would never pass away, not even after all these things Christ spoke of would be finished.

 

[rwb]

You gave complete disregard to my question below as if it didn't exist "Why"?

Once Again, When did or will Daniel's Abomination of Desolation take place, when did or will those seen below flee Judea to the mountains?

Matthew 24:15-16KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The abomination that makes desolate is something the faithful saints of God know, it is not something visibly seen. It was known by the first Jewish Christians when the nation of Israel forsook their promised Messiah/Redeemer and ceased to be the holy city and holy temple unto God. The same is true throughout the centuries. When that which is the representative of God on earth turns away from God, Christ tells us "the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee." Christ is the true light, we must when we lack faith in Christ, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." (Rev 2:5).

This is how the reader is given to understand abomination that maketh desolate is not limited to one specific time in redemptive history. It is a pattern we see that has been repeated again and again in Churches throughout the world as they turn away from Christ and turn to worship and serve other so-called gods and idols. Christ's disciples are warned to be awake, and to discern the spiritual condition of the Church on earth, and if it too becomes an apostate abomination altogether desolate to God, leave, just as the first century Jewish disciples fled as Christ warned them they should as they knew Israel had become an abomination, so Christ warned them to flee from there when they understood the destruction of God's wrath being poured out on them using Rome as the vehicle in which to make the city and temple utterly perish from the earth.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 24:2, The Temple Destruction Was Symbolic, Not Literal As Reformed PreterismTeaches​

Reformed Theology in Peterism takes the symbolic temple destruction in Matthew 24:2 and interprets it as a literal destruction by Roman armies in 70AD as fulfillment

The temple being destroyed in Matthew 24:2 was symbolic of the Lord's death and resurrection as seen in John 2:19-22 below, and yes his disciples remembered what he had said about the temples destruction

At the death of Jesus Christ, the veil in the temple was rent, the temple was "symbolically destroyed", and after the resurrection this literal temple in Jerusalem was replaced by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, he is the holy of holies and mediator between God and man, (Jerusalem's Temple Destroyed, Gone)

Matthew 27:50:51KJV
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Neither the destruction of the city and temple nor the death of Christ were symbolic. There were both literal destructions brought on by spiritual apostasy of the people who were chosen to represent God to all people upon this earth. The challenge for the futurists to overcome is the FACT that the city and temple were literally destroyed is historical. So too the life, death and resurrection of Christ is historical. Yes, the disciples living with Christ and after Pentecost would come to understand by remembering through the Holy Spirit in them all that Christ had taught them about His death and resurrection had been fulfilled.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 12:16 (KJV) These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Acts 11:15-18 (KJV) And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Christ gave instructions to His disciples before departing this earth, telling them to, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15-18 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Christ told them of the spiritual signs that would be seen as evidence that preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God would not be in vain. He told them how they would be able to understand the Kingdom of God that is spiritual, not physical, is not of this earth, is not visible but is within you can be known and understood when believers are able to cast out devils in the name of Christ, and speak with unlearned tongues, taking up serpents symbolizes having the ability to confront the devils and demons in the name of Christ when he comes to turn your heart away from God, the words the devil/demons speak will not be deadly or harmful to those who have the Spirit of Christ within them because "greater is He that is in you, then he that is in the world", finally they would also witness supernatural healing in the name of Christ. All of these spiritual signs the disciples were to witness came to pass as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be preached unto all the world for a witness unto all nations.

There was more than simply observing new spiritual life in the fig tree (Israel) and all the trees (Gentiles), but with many signs Christ gave His disciples that they and we might know and believe His Word is truth and that the only way to everlasting life is to believe on His name.

The words spoken by Christ from the Mount of Olives cannot be limited to any one time or season because they were spoken to the universal Church on earth that we might believe.

 

[rwb]

Yes, the gospel had already been preached to all the world nations in the first-century generation, according to Paul in Colossians 1:5-6 & 23, and in 1 Timothy 3:16.

"...the word of the truth of the gospel; which has come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth."

"...the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

It had indeed reached the world known then, but it could not have been a witness unto all nations in the first century because there have been many new nations born since the first century AD. So when we read "all the world" from the first century, it should be understood as the world as it then existed. Why tell the disciples to go into all the world for a witness unto all nations, if the Gospel had already been taken unto all the world in the first century?

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 2:1 (KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

World known in the first century was limited to the Roman Empire, but that was not to be the end for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God but rather the beginning, and example for all Christ's disciples to follow after as the world grew greater through all the nations that would come, and through whom the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be complete.

 

[rwb]

Jesus fulfilled His promise to bodily return before some of those in Israel that heard Him speaking to them had died (Matthew 16:27-28). This is not what Full Preterism teaches at all. Full Preterists also deny the next future bodily return of Christ for a final bodily resurrection event for the last multitude of the saints at the final judgment. This will be the final bodily resurrection which will include any saints who either have died or will have died since the last AD 70 bodily resurrection event. That AD 70 second coming resurrection was the one which Paul told Felix was "about to be" (Acts 24:15).

The physical returning of Christ shall be visible to all who are alive upon the earth who shall see Him coming in the clouds in the same way He was seen leaving this earth. There was not bodily resurrection of the spiritually dead or physically dead in the first century, other than the resurrection of Christ. The spiritually dead have part in Christ's resurrection life, when they are made spiritually alive by the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached in the power of the Holy Spirit. There were some who stood before Christ who indeed did not die before understanding (see) the Kingdom of God had come with power. The resurrection of Christ from the dead was not Christ return to earth that shall be after the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been preached to all the world as a witness unto all nations, then shall the end of this age come and Christ shall come again. Acts 24:15 is not speaking of a resurrection event in AD 70. It speaks of the bodily resurrection that shall be of ALL who are in the graves together in an hour that is coming. Those who have done good will be resurrected first, followed by those who have done evil, both in the same hour that is coming.

There shall be none resurrected physically from the graves until an hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound and time given this earth shall be no longer. (Jo 5:28-29; Rev 10:5-7; Acts 2)

Christ is coming again a second time for those who have been saved.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall comone forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour that now is during this age and is the time when each one belonging to the "chosen generation", "this generation" that shall not pass until all is fulfilled, is for hearing the Word (Gospel of the Kingdom of God) and all who believe pass from spiritual death to spiritual life as we hear the voice of the Son of God calling us through His Word.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[rwb]

Luke 21:20 interprets for us Daniel's "abomination of desolation" as being "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". The disciples were to recognize these encircling armies as the time to flee Judea and Jerusalem, so as to escape the "days of vengeance" coming upon "this people" - the first-century generation of Judea's inhabitants.

No he does not! Luke writes that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies the desolation of the city and temple had come. True their physical end came to Israel because the nation had become an abomination unto God through spiritual idolatry and adultery, but the Roman Army did not even come for about thirty more years after Christ had declared their house was already desolate unto God.

This abomination of desolation of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" occurred in October of AD 66, with the arrival of Cestius Gallus' Roman army faced off against the Zealot leaders' armies which were in Jerusalem. After the Roman army had gotten into the city and was preparing to undermine the temple wall, Cestius Gallus for no reason whatever chose to withdraw from Jeruslem, when he could have taken the city within a few days. His retreat from the city, followed by the Zealot armies giving chase, gave any believers within the city of Jerusalem a precious couple days' window of opportunity to flee the city for the mountains, as Christ had warned them to do. Once the triumphant, victorious Zealot armies returned, the city gates were locked and no one was able to leave after that.

The casualty records we have from the AD 66-70 period compared to the Passover census taken by Nero in AD 66 show that an approximate 1-1/4 million individuals must have heeded Christ's warning to flee to the mountains from the war in Judea and Jerusalem, because they never returned to the besieged city.

The nation had become an abomination that caused it to be a desolation unto God came long before Christ came. Jerusalem was an abomination unto God, and the reason she was destined to be thrown down, never to rise again. The prophets (many times) write, warning Israel of Old, but to no avail, here is one example of how God viewed Israel long before the advent of Christ.

Zephaniah 2:15 (KJV) This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.

The final abominable act that sealed the fate of Israel of Old forever was turning their Messiah/Redeemer over to Gentiles to be crucified. The chosen Jews living in Jerusalem then understood through the cross and resurrection the physical city and temple were no longer the holy city and holy temple of God. They had become an abomination unto God. Still God gave to them about thirty years more to understand the spiritual Kingdom of God had come with Christ, and all who understood and believed departed the city and were not destroyed with the city. The faithful, since Christ now have understanding that Zion from above is where the Holy City, New Jerusalem may be found according to grace through faith when they hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and turn to Christ believing in Him.

The literal destruction of Jerusalem that came about thirty years after Christ confirms the Word of God that He said would come to them unless they repented of their evil doings, and turned to His Son for life everlasting.

 

[Truth7t7]

The timing of Christ's return which became dated to Pentecost day in AD 70 can be found in Ezekiel Daniel, and Zechariah.

#1) Ezekiel 46:1-3 describes the rebuilt temple of Zerubbabel with its "gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east" The people were to worship facing the door of this eastern gate in the Sabbaths and in the new moons. This gate was to be shut the six working days, and only opened on the Sabbaths and the new moons for the prince of the people to both enter and leave by that eastern gate. No one else could use that gate but the prince of the people.

This was indicative of the very location and timing of when "Messiah the Prince" would return - and leave - from that eastern gate. This eastern gate was the one that faced the Mount of Olives, which was where Zechariah 14:4-5 said that Christ would bodily return. No wonder the people were ordered to worship facing this eastern gate. It would be the location and the timing where they would see Messiah the Prince returning for the bodily resurrection of the saints.

HINT: this temple and its gates were all torn down to the last stone by the close of AD 70. That is because the eastern gate by then had served its purpose as the location where Christ would bodily return. There was no need to preserve the temple and that eastern gate after that.


#2) Zechariah 12-14 is the entire prophecy predicting the conditions of the "seige both against Judah and Jerusalem" in the AD 66-70 period. Everything predicted for "in that day" happened in the same period of time. That included the bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives, opposite the eastern gate of Jerusalem's temple. Zechariah 14:4-5 (in the LXX) predicted that the mountain would "cleave asunder" and "lean" in all direction of north, south, east and west. At that time, the valley (the Kidron Valley) would be "blocked up as far as Azal", just as it had done in King Uzziah's days of the earthquake back then. This was going to be earthquake rubble from the breaking up of the Mount of Olives that would slide downhill in all directions from there and block up the Kidron Valley, just as it had done once before. At this point Christ would have returned, and all the saints with Him.

Archaeological digs in the Kidron Valley have revealed that there is a 40' deep layer of this landslide rubble lying in the Kidron Valley today that extends as far as the Wadi Yasul (the "Azal" name preserved in Arabic), dated to a first-century earthquake event. The lowest part of the Kidron Valley is not as deep as it was in Christ's days, since it is 40' higher now than back then, and about 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem on that eastern side than it used to be. In other words, Christ performed His second coming return - and departure - as promised, leaving the earthquake rubble lying in the Kidron Valley as a mute testimony of that return in AD 70.

#3) Daniel went even more specific as to the AD 70 timing of the resurrection at Christ's return. Daniel 12:11-13 predicted a countdown of a total of 1,335 days, at the end of which Daniel himself would "stand in his lot" after resting in the grave until then. There were two specific events which would launch the beginning of that 1,335 days. #1), The "abomination of desolation" being set up ("Jerusalem surrounded by armies" as in Luke 21:20) taking place at the same season of time in which #2), a "daily sacrifice shall be taken away".

Both of these two events happened in the same season in AD 66, when Cestius Gallus's Roman army made contact with Jerusalem's temple wall in October of AD 66, in the same season when the temple governor, Eleazar, had just taken away the daily sacrifice made for the Roman empire and the emperor, and refused to allow the offerings made by any foreigners in Jerusalem. This broke the treaty which Jerusalem's priesthood had made with Rome, which had allowed them to operate as a "religio licita" - a state-sanctioned religion. This was an act of war against Rome, and resulted in the Roman army under Cestius Gallus coming to surround Jerusalem .

Counting down Daniel's 1,260 days from the October AD 66 presence of Cestius Gallus's army in Jerusalem at the temple wall, the Roman armies arrived again under Titus, just after Passover week had begun in AD 70 (the 1,260 days in Daniel 12:11). Forty-five days later, on the 1,335th day, Pentecost day in AD 70 arrived. Those who had waited for this day experienced the blessing of the resurrection which Daniel also participated in. Everyone in the "dust of the earth" who was "written in the book" was "delivered" by a resurrection at that point, which was on a "Sabbath", just as Ezekiel 46:1-3 had indicated for Messiah the Prince to arrive on schedule at the eastern gate location.

Not one word you have provided shows that Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives in 70AD as you falsely claim, because it doesn't exist, your claims are (Science Fiction)

 

[Truth7t7]

The abomination that makes desolate is something the faithful saints of God know, it is not something visibly seen. It was known by the first Jewish Christians when the nation of Israel forsook their promised Messiah/Redeemer and ceased to be the holy city and holy temple unto God.

My eyes read your preterist claims that Daniels Abomination was fulfilled in the 1st century

The same is true throughout the centuries. When that which is the representative of God on earth turns away from God, Christ tells us "the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee." Christ is the true light, we must when we lack faith in Christ, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." (Rev 2:5).

This is how the reader is given to understand abomination that maketh desolate is not limited to one specific time in redemptive history. It is a pattern we see that has been repeated again and again in Churches throughout the world as they turn away from Christ and turn to worship and serve other so-called gods and idols.

I Disagree, Daniel's Abomination takes place in a specific area on earth (Judea) and as seen in Matthew 24:15-16 below, the believers will "See This In Judea" and flee to the mountains

Your claim this event takes place throughout history is "Laughable" and that is big understatement, Reformed preterist eschatology's claims concerning Daniel's abomination is a man made fictitious fairy tale

Matthew 24:15-16KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

God's wrath being poured out on them using Rome as the vehicle in which to make the city and temple utterly perish from the earth.

You espouse Reformed preterist eschatology In 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-16 above, a false teaching

70 AD and Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of one word in Matthew 24, Daniel's Abomination and believers fleeing Judea are "Future" unfulfilled

 

[3 Resurrections]

It had indeed reached the world known then, but it could not have been a witness unto all nations in the first century because there have been many new nations born since the first century AD.

That is immaterial. Regardless of whether new national divisions of the regions of the globe have been made since AD 70, it's the same planetary regions in question. This does not negate the fact that Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven in his own days. What God did once back in the first century, He has continued to do since then by the power of the Holy Spirit. Just like Christ's example of the continued influence of leaven on a loaf of bread dough.

Why tell the disciples to go into all the world for a witness unto all nations, if the Gospel had already been taken unto all the world in the first century?

Because that instruction to the disciples was exactly the means by which all the world had the gospel preached unto them. The disciples were obedient to Christ's directive - all the nations of the world had the gospel preached unto them, and then the end came in Paul's generation, just as Christ had predicted.

The physical returning of Christ shall be visible to all who are alive upon the earth who shall see Him coming in the clouds in the same way He was seen leaving this earth.

That's not quite what Rev. 1:7's prediction was. That return wasn't going to be seen by everyone alive upon the earth. It was going to be seen by "every eye" specifically of "they who pierced Him". It was these tribes of Israel who had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ, besieged within the city of Jerusalem during the AD 66-70 period, who wept and wailed when they saw the returning Christ coming to the Mount of Olives.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall comone forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This prediction of Christ's was the same as the imminent resurrection of the just and the unjust, a resurrection which Paul told Felix was "about to be". That "judgment about to come" in Acts 24:25 happened for all the resurrected dead in AD 70.

There was not bodily resurrection of the spiritually dead or physically dead in the first century, other than the resurrection of Christ.

Not so. You are sweeping under the rug the bodily-resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, raised to immortal life on the same day as "Christ the First-fruits". There were 144,000 of that group of First-fruits raised by Christ that day. These all remained on earth until the next AD 70 resurrection, when they all left this planet with Christ together.

Not one word you have provided shows that Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives in 70AD as you falsely claim, because it doesn't exist, your claims are (Science Fiction)

You sure are willing to dismiss a lot of scripture. Christ was quite clear in Matthew 16:27-28 that He would return with angels and in the glory of the Father to give rewards according to everyone's works, and this would happen before some of those He personally spoke to had physically died. A child could figure this out. Not sure why this should bother you that an unnumbered multitude of resurrected saints got their rewards in AD 70 before you will in the future. That seems a bit self-centered. Scripture mentions more than one "wedding feast", you know.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not sure why this should bother you that an unnumbered multitude of resurrected saints got their rewards in AD 70 before you will in the future. That seems a bit self-centered. Scripture mentions more than one "wedding feast", you know.

There is only one future second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement (The End)

There is only one future resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place on the last day at the second coming John 6:39-40, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2

 

[covenantee]

believers fleeing Judea are "Future" unfulfilled

They fled long ago, before 70 AD.

Father of Church History Eusebius:

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem…"

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is only one future second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement (The End)

You are dismissing Peter's own statement in 1 Peter 4:7, saying that "the end of all things is at hand" in his own days. Paul also in 1 Cor. 10:ll wrote to the believers, addressing them as those "upon whom the ends of the ages have come".

There was a culmination point that was present for the believers in the first-century days. It would end with the second coming return of Christ with a bodily resurrection and a judgment that Paul predicted to Felix was "about to be".

But since the truth is that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", this demands yet another third resurrection event in our own future at a third coming of Christ. It is this third coming which will bring fallen mankind's history to a close. You just don't think God can open the books in judgment more than one time, and that is your own presumption at work.

There is only one future resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place on the last day at the second coming John 6:39-40, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2

That particular second coming resurrection event was future to Christ's time on earth, but not future to us. And you are ignoring the time parameters which Daniel put on the Daniel 12:1-2 resurrection. These time parameters were fulfilled back on Pentecost day in AD 70. Anybody can do the countdown of 1,335 days after those two prophesied events of Daniel 12:11 took place, and find the day when Christ returned back in AD 70.

 

[Truth7t7]

They fled long ago, before 70 AD.

Father of Church History Eusebius:

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem…"

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

Not one word in Matthew Chapter 24 had anything to do with the 70AD destruction of Jerusalems temple or Roman armies as is taught in reformed preterist escgatology that you believe and trach

 

[covenantee]

Not one word in Matthew Chapter 24 had anything to do with the 70AD destruction of Jerusalems temple or Roman armies as is taught in reformed preterist escgatology that you believe and trach

Eusebius is the acclaimed Father of Church History.

You're not.

You believe that everything before 70 AD was preterist.

Therefore, you believe that Jesus was preterist.

 

[rwb]

My eyes read your preterist claims that Daniels Abomination was fulfilled in the 1st century

Matthew 24:15-16KJV

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Greek word translated eido "shall see" in this verse is not seeing with physical sight. It is to have knowledge or be aware of, understand or perceive. If it meant to see visibly as in verse 30 "they shall see" the Greek word translated would be optánomai that means literally watching from a distance, appear, look, see, shew self.

The abomination spoken of through Daniel is not physical, but spiritual apostasy that is known by faith, not seen with visible sight. But I understand you have a doctrine to support, so no doubt you will not believe.

 

[rwb]

That is immaterial.

Only to Preterits who have a doctrine to maintain.

This does not negate the fact that Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven in his own days.

Yes, those who lived in Paul's own day! That does not include all who live and die and after the first century AD.

That return wasn't going to be seen by everyone alive upon the earth. It was going to be seen by "every eye" specifically of "they who pierced Him".

When will the eyes of "they who pierced Him" literally see Him? They shall see Him when they are called to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to all that is written in the books. They cannot see Him coming again in the clouds, because they have been long dead and will not live again until they are called from the graves in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds when their names will not be found written in the book of life and they shall have part in the LOF that is the second death. None who are not physically alive will have physical eyes to see Christ physically coming again in the clouds.

This prediction of Christ's was the same as the imminent resurrection of the just and the unjust, a resurrection which Paul told Felix was "about to be". That "judgment about to come" in Acts 24:25 happened for all the resurrected dead in AD 70.

Judgment is CERTAIN to come! So it shall in an hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound the return of Christ and the GWTJ Day. None have been physically resurrected for judgment yet, but they shall be judged after the Gospel of the spiritual Kingdom of God has accomplished the purpose for complete the Kingdom of God as people throughout every nation of the world hear the Gospel and by grace through faith hear by the power of the Holy Spirit and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God.

Not so. You are sweeping under the rug the bodily-resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, raised to immortal life on the same day as "Christ the First-fruits". There were 144,000 of that group of First-fruits raised by Christ that day. These all remained on earth until the next AD 70 resurrection, when they all left this planet with Christ together.

No, I properly understand the 144,000 are the remnant of all the tribes of the children of Israel who were made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ before He ascended to heaven after His resurrection. Before ascending up Christ first went into that place of the grave of Old called Abraham's bosom, where He set the captives free from the bondage of the grave taking them with Him into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. None could ascend to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven until after Christ came to pay the penalty for sin, and defeat death.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yes, those who lived in Paul's own day! That does not include all who live and die and after the first century AD.

Great, you have agreed that the terms of Christ's prediction for the gospel preached to all nations was fulfilled in Paul's own days. That means the particular end Christ referred to could then come to pass back then, since the terms of that prediction were fulfilled. Just as Peter and Paul also agreed that "the end" Christ spoke of was "at hand" and had come upon them in their own days (1 Peter 4:8 and 1 Cor. 10:11).

What God did back then for the particular "end" taking place in the first century, He is in the process of repeating in the generations since then. The "stone" cut without hands will continue to grow until it becomes a mountain that will fill the whole world, as Daniel 2:35 predicted - prior to the next culmination point of human history.

When will the eyes of "they who pierced Him" literally see Him?

That had to happen when there were still members of the intact tribes of Israel around to see Christ bodily return. Zechariah lists some of these families and tribes in the very text which the Revelation 1:7 text was taken from which would be mourning when they saw the returning Christ.

During the AD 66-70 period, the genealogical records of the tribes were burned up when the Zealots put a torch to the archives in Jerusalem. God had predicted this as part of the "shaking" process to get rid of all the OC elements that had become obsolete. The tribal distinctions passed away, which means this prophecy in Rev. 1:7 had to take place when there were still Israelite tribes around to do that mourning in Jerusalem.

No, I properly understand the 144,000 are the remnant of all the tribes of the children of Israel who were made spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ before He ascended to heaven after His resurrection.

You have misunderstood the identity of the 144,000 because you do not understand the significance of their title as "the First-fruits". Just as Christ was called the "First-fruits", the 144,000 were given the same title because they shared the same "First resurrection" event with Christ that same day in AD 33. This remnant of saints coming from those named Israelite tribes were "redeemed" from out of the earth (Rev. 14:3) by their physical bodies being resurrected from those broken-open graves around Jerusalem. Paul called it "the redemption of our body" in Romans 8:23. The 144,000 First-fruits were more than spiritually resurrected; they were physically resurrected by the redemption of their bodies from out of the earth.

 

[rwb]

Great, you have agreed that the terms of Christ's prediction for the gospel preached to all nations was fulfilled in Paul's own days. That means the particular end Christ referred to could then come to pass back then, since the terms of that prediction were fulfilled. Just as Peter and Paul also agreed that "the end" Christ spoke of was "at hand" and had come upon them in their own days (1 Peter 4:8 and 1 Cor. 10:11).

I agree that's what Paul and the first century disciples believed, because to them the Roman Empire was the "whole world." The end of this world, which btw is made of earth/land, shall not be until Christ comes again to gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other before God sends down fire from heaven to burn up everything left alive upon the earth. That did not happen in 70 AD. Christ will not gather only some of His elect He shall gather together all of His elect "from the uttermost part of the earth. 'Uttermost' means from the extremity, from one end of the whole earth to the other.

Mark 13:27 (KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

What God did back then for the particular "end" taking place in the first century, He is in the process of repeating in the generations since then. The "stone" cut without hands will continue to grow until it becomes a mountain that will fill the whole world, as Daniel 2:35 predicted - prior to the next culmination point of human history.

What God did to the nation of Israel in 70 AD, was to prove He keeps His promises! God repeatedly warned the nation that if they did not repent of their evil ways, and turn again to Him, they would be utterly destroyed from the earth. So they were, just as God promised they would be!

That had to happen when there were still members of the intact tribes of Israel around to see Christ bodily return. Zechariah lists some of these families and tribes in the very text which the Revelation 1:7 text was taken from which would be mourning when they saw the returning Christ.

During the AD 66-70 period, the genealogical records of the tribes were burned up when the Zealots put a torch to the archives in Jerusalem. God had predicted this as part of the "shaking" process to get rid of all the OC elements that had become obsolete. The tribal distinctions passed away, which means this prophecy in Rev. 1:7 had to take place when there were still Israelite tribes around to do that mourning in Jerusalem.

The only Israel that shall still be alive to visibly see the Lord's second coming, is the "Israel of God" that is comprised of both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together; 'the Chruch'. Granted, they shall be few left alive on this earth at His coming again, but there shall be some still living then. It's obvious that you do not understand how to read the prophecies regarding the coming of the promised Messiah/Redeemer. The Messiah the prophets write of and looked for is Christ Jesus our Lord. He already physically came with the spiritual Kingdom of God that He instructed His disciples to preach unto all the world as a witness to all nations, so the spiritual Kingdom of God would be complete as people from every nation of the earth hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and according to grace through faith turn to Christ for everlasting life. Trying to read the Old Covenant prophets as though they write of Christ returning more than one more time is to totally miss the coming Day/time/age of the Lord the prophets foretell would come.

You have misunderstood the identity of the 144,000 because you do not understand the significance of their title as "the First-fruits". Just as Christ was called the "First-fruits", the 144,000 were given the same title because they shared the same "First resurrection" event with Christ that same day in AD 33. This remnant of saints coming from those named Israelite tribes were "redeemed" from out of the earth (Rev. 14:3) by their physical bodies being resurrected from those broken-open graves around Jerusalem. Paul called it "the redemption of our body" in Romans 8:23. The 144,000 First-fruits were more than spiritually resurrected; they were physically resurrected by the redemption of their bodies from out of the earth.

The firstfruits unto the Lord are those who ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers there. The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel are Old Covenant faithful saints that believed the Law and prophets that speak of the Messiah coming to earth, IOW they had faith. They all died in faith longing and waiting for His coming, knowing that when He came, He would redeem them from the grave. They are the firstfruits of the spiritual body of Christ (Rev 14) that ascended to heaven when Christ ascended there. Now, that the physically dead are raised up a spiritual body of believers, since the advent of Christ all who die in faith, spiritually alive through His Spirit shall be with the spiritual body of believers in heaven, still living souls. Since it is the Spirit that gives life, Christ, through His Spirit sealed them that they could ascend together with Christ to heaven. We read of them being sealed in Rev 7:1-8. When these faithful saints received the Holy Spirit they became partakers of the "first resurrection". The first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that all men must have part in to have spiritual life in heaven after physical death, and to overcome the second death.

There shall be NONE physically resurrected from the graves until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth shall be no longer.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Mark 13:27 (KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This was already done once, as promised for that first-century generation. All of the dead up to that point - both just and unjust - were judged. God will do the same thing yet again in our future at a final judgment. You, of course, were not an eye-witness of those first-century times, so you cannot pronounce that this was not done. Christ promised a first-century bodily return before that first-century generation had passed away, and He delivered on that promise. Unless you want to accuse Jesus of lying, which many unbelievers have spitefully said on this very point.

You are presuming that the planet was supposed to go out of existence at that point. This was never the prediction. The heavens and the earth were prophesied to "be CHANGED", just like a garment (Hebrews 1:12). The conditions in this world and in the heavens are not what they were before Christ's AD 70 return. They changed at that point, and we are currently living under those changed conditions of the NHNE.

They are the firstfruits of the spiritual body of Christ (Rev 14) that ascended to heaven when Christ ascended there.

The 144,000 First-fruits were more than just spiritually resurrected. They received the redemption of their bodies from out of the earth also, as Revelation 14:3 said. And those bodily- resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not ascend to heaven that resurrection day. As the 144,000 "First-fruits" to be bodily resurrected as a group, they remained on earth for a time, which is why Paul wrote in Romans 8:23 that the church HAD the Firstfruits among them, waiting for the rest of the dead saints to receive the redemption of their bodies also.

Even though the spirits of the righteous dead were allowed access to heaven after Christ's resurrection (as Paul wrote about with "absent from the body, present with the Lord") no bodily-resurrected saints were allowed access to heaven's temple until the 7 plagues were fulfilled (Rev. 15:8). Those seven plagues were finished back in the first century by AD 70. Every one of them. John confirmed several times in his book that those prophesied events that were "about to be" were then "at hand" for fulfillment in his own days.

Any prophecy which is described as being "at hand" (as John did for all his prophecies of the near future ) is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". They are fulfilled "in your days" for the ones first receiving the prophecy, according to the way God defines this term in Ezekiel 12:21-28.

That means the 7 plagues were already poured out in the same generation to whom John originally wrote the Revelation, and therefore, the gathering of all the bodily-resurrected saints to enter heaven's temple happened back then.

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:15-16KJV


The Greek word translated eido "shall see" in this verse is not seeing with physical sight. It is to have knowledge or be aware of, understand or perceive. If it meant to see visibly as in verse 30 "they shall see" the Greek word translated would be optánomai that means literally watching from a distance, appear, look, see, shew self.

The abomination spoken of through Daniel is not physical, but spiritual apostasy that is known by faith, not seen with visible sight. But I understand you have a doctrine to support, so no doubt you will not believe.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see(eido) Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Unless my Strong's is incorrect, My Strong's records that 'see' in this verse is also eido rather than optánomai. Aren't you arguing that 'see' in this verse is meaning in the literal sense, that they literally with their own eyes saw that Jerusalem was surrounded with armies, thus fled to the mountains?

Was or was not Jerusalem literally surrounded with armies in the first century? Did or did not Christians literally flee to the mountains before Jerusalem was destroyed?

To be consistent since both passages use the Greek word eido, and that neither use the Greek word optánomai, one, including me, can't argue in one manner per one passage and in an entirely different manner in the other passage.

Initially my position was since I never took Matthew 24:15 to be involving the first century and 70 AD, that I then did the same with Luke 21:20, thus I at least was being consistent at the time. Eventually I changed my position somewhat and started taking Luke 21:20 to be involving 70 AD while maintaining that Matthew 24:15 is not involving 70 AD.

And since there is such a thing as having been correct to begin with before changing one's position,
maybe I was intially correct all along, that neither passage is involving 70 AD?