So you believe the rapture happens after jesus returns or after the millenial kingdom.
The day Christ returns at the 7th trump, before the start of the Mill.
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So you believe the rapture happens after jesus returns or after the millenial kingdom.
So Jesus comes back and then pours the seven vials according to you. Okay then.Nope. Scripture says he comes at the last trumpet, not last vial.
Sorry, but Rev. 12 is about Satan seeking genocide against the Jews. Context matters. The woman is Israel. The church did not give birth to Jesus, Israel did.It is about being delivered from God's wrath. Rev 12 states Christians are intended to receive the wrath of satan.
Well you are wrong because millions disagree with you. And no I am not inventing trumpets. I am referring to the feast of trumpets as a type of the rapture and that the final trumpet sound is called the "last trump:.He said last trumpet not last vial and the only last trumpet in any Christian/NT prophecy is the 7th. You are inventing an unknown amount of more trumpets to have a false last trumpet other than the 7th.
Well you are contradicitng yourself!The day Christ returns at the 7th trump, before the start of the Mill.
YOu say the rapture happens after the resurrection is fully completed.The rapture is not the resurrection. The resurrection happens first, then after it is fully completed the rapture takes place.
The resurrection according to the bible is completed after the 1,000 years. so which of your statements do we reject?
Sorry, but Rev. 12 is about Satan seeking genocide against the Jews. Context matters. The woman is Israel. The church did not give birth to Jesus, Israel did.
Well you are wrong because millions disagree with you. And no I am not inventing trumpets. I am referring to the feast of trumpets as a type of the rapture and that the final trumpet sound is called the "last trump:.
Nowhere in Scripture do you see the seventh trumpet called the last trump.
But by your theology, you are forced to have Jesus returning while God is pouring out the vials!
The bible calls the vials the last plagues, which means that these happen after the trumpets.
can you show me in scripture that the rapture happens after jesus returns and after the first resurrection after He has already returned to earth?I was speaking of completion of the first resurrection, not the second.
Well then let us look at the chapter.And if you read the full chp you will see his efforts fail then he goes on to start a war against Christians. It is found in Rev 13 and is successful as the saints are overcome. That war is the GT and is against Christians not Jews.
So Jesus returns and teh vials are poured out after He returns. Okay now we know where you stand.That is not a concept found in NT prophecy./ The only trumpets any prophet speaks of are the 7 of the end times which end with the Coming.
Paul speaks of the rapture as something to be comforted by- not with your theology.No, he returns just before they pour.
6. Vse 17 Satan is angry with the woman (Israel) and goes to make war with her seed (Israelites) which have been saved!
So where exactly is the church here??????????????
Okay time for a basic grammar lesson. this is a compound sentence which does not follow the sharp-granville rule. so this means that they which keep the commandment and have the testimony of Jesus is a double reference to the remnant of her seed (Israel).You didn't read it very well:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Okay time for a basic grammar lesson. this is a compound sentence which does not follow the sharp-granville rule. so this means that they which keep the commandment and have the testimony of Jesus is a double reference to the remnant of her seed (Israel).
Now we know that believers ( I do not call them Christians as that refers to teh bride of Christ which is raptured before the trib begins)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.Nope. Two churches are not the same as two anointed people (the two olives trees)
In scripture, olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks so they can have a flame. To say the candlestick and the olive trees are the same is just wrong.
There is a reason why Rev 11 does not say the two witnesses are killed and lay in the street for 3.5 days. It's only one of those two witnesses who do, the two prophets which are two people rather than two churches which is a larger number of people.
Rev starts talking about the two witnesses and explains how there are 4 things that compose this concept, then it focuses on only part of that with the death of the two prophets.
Matt 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."That's not what the bible says.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The sign of the Son is directly tied to the second coming. The two prophets are already in heaven and have joined Christ's following army by the time of this verse.
I agree with this, but in war there are casualties on both sides. In order to kill those who refuse to bow, AC is willing to sacrifice his whole army. Mankind would be wiped out without God's intervention.The only ones the coming false-Messiah will go after are those who 'refuse' to bow to the "image of the beast" IDOL that he will setup for the whole world to bow in worship to, or be killed.
I agree that it will take some time to put up this image of the beast, but why do you say that it won't be until the very End of the great tribulation? The reign of AC and the FP comes to an end at the very end of the great tribulation.And that won't be until the very END of the "great tribulation".
I agree with the comparison, but Nebuchadnezzar did not wait until the end of his rule to set up the image.So study the plight that Daniel and his fellows went through with refusing to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's idol. Same idea for the END.
I also agree with this.And even then, with those of us that refuse to bow to the coming Antichrist's "image of the beast", or refuse his 'mark', that does not mean all of us. If it did, then there would be no Church left on earth when Jesus comes to gather His saints.
Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
Luke 21:17-20
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
KJV
The 4 living creatures and the 24 elders sing songs 1 and 2 below:You have no Scripture evidence to treat that vision of the elders with crowns as having already being in effect. It's not, John was given a vision of a future event with those elders, and by the below verse you should have picked that understanding up...
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
I agree. This is the earthquake that ends the period of great tribulation. It is the earthquake that occurs when the 2 witnesses arise.Might want to get busy and do that Old Testament homework in the prophets. Joel 2 wasn't quoted by Apostle Peter on Pentecost in Acts 2 for nothing.
About that earthquake on the 6th Seal of Rev.6:12, that's not the same great earthquake that happens when Jesus returns.
This verse is about the tear in the firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below. People on earth will get a glimpse into heaven just after the earthquake of Rev 6:12. The 2 witnesses/144,000 will be seen in heaven.You should break that Rev.6:13 verse down that happens next, because it is about the stars of heaven falling to the earth.
Rev 12:3-4 is about Satan trying to kill the infant Jesus. See Matt 2.Per Rev.12:3-4, the "red dragon" (Lucifer) drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth at his rebellion in the old world which God destroyed.
I agree.At Rev.6:14 forward is actually about Jesus' coming.
Rev 12:7-17 is what happens in heaven during the first 4 trumpets. There is woe on earth after 4 trumpets, which is also seen in Rev 12:12 because Satan has been cast from heaven to earth. It will take Satan some time to form the last world empire, the last 3.5 years of that empire, Satan will rule. Only those 3.5 years are the great tribulation.Thus the 6th Seal is in TWO parts. The first part is about the future Rev.12:7-17 events when Satan and his angels are booted out of the heavenly dimension down to our earth, in OUR earthly dimension.
ThanksThat is what will kick off the coming "great tribulation"...
Before Jesus returns, the 2 witnesses will die, be raised from the dead, and ascend into heaven. That is, they will become the firstfruits, the first of mankind since Jesus to arrive in heaven with their transfigured body. Only the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 fit the description of Rev 14:1-5.Some of that is WILD, and not Bible Scripture at all.
FACT: not all the 144,000 represent Jews...
Once you compare how each story ends, you won't be able to view the Revelation from any other perspective. You can't unsee it, once you have seen it."Stories"? Sounds like men's doctrine. The idea of 'selah' is written... in the Psalms. So I wouldn't be so quick to pass that idea off in favor of men's 'stories' instead.
The events of Rev 14 and 15 are in chronological order. Rev 14:1-5 occurs before Rev 14:14, the return of Jesus.Charts mean absolutely nothing if they don't align with Bible Scripture. And I guarantee your's do not, simply because the first part of the 6th Seal of Rev.6:12-13 is about Satan's coming at the end of this world, PRIOR to Christ's return. And I already covered that. That idea of the "untimely figs" of Rev.6:13 is a metaphor that not that many understand, so you've got a lot of company. Likewise with the Rev.12:7-9 event, many try to push that back in history when Satan first rebelled, which is an erroneous interpretation, though popular.
Like I said, per Rev.14 & 15, the new song, and song of Moses, are sung by Christ's elect AFTER His future return. Those are visions of future events that John was given to see.
Well you have a problem. IN Rev. 19, you said the church is raptured after teh first resurrection is complete (after you said just the resurrection is complete.) But in Revelation 19 we see the church, the bride of Jesus in heaven with her robes of righteousness!This is a problem. You are created two different kings of followers of Jesus, calling one believers and the other Christians. Any believer in Jesus is a Christian and of the church and Bride.
So, I was right when I said the war/trib is against Christians.
I agree.The main purpose of Rev.7 is the 'sealing' of God's servants for the END of this present world. The 144,000 that are sealed in the first part of that chapter represent Christ's very elect of the seed of Israel.
The great multitude died and went to heaven. Death is the means by which they came out of the great tribulation.The "great multitude" mentioned later are the Gentiles in Christ's Church that are also 'sealed' with God's seal by The Holy Spirit. With them, John is shown a vision of their future time with Christ after His future return.
There were 3 festivals that all Jewish males were supposed to attend, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.Not just the 144,00. The "great multitude" of Gentiles in Rev.7 represent firstfruits in Christ also...
James 1:18
18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
KJV
Rom 8:23
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV
The point being that they were not yet in heaven because heaven wasn't yet prepared by the slain Lamb.The "spirits in prison" represent ALL... those who had died prior to Christ's death and resurrection, not only saints. Per Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3 & 4, Jesus preached The Gospel to those in Satan's prison house, and led out of darkness those who 'believed'. Those became saints by their Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But all of those "spirits in prison" were then judged according to men in the flesh so they might live according to God in the spirit. That event was first prophesied in Isaiah 42:7 about the time of Christ's 1st coming.
They had to be in the great tribulation on earth to come out of it.Where's your proof that the "great multitude" of Rev.7 are the "dead in Christ"? That idea is not written there. Instead, John is given a future... view about those in the world to come. The idea that they came out of great tribulation is about their having gone through it, not necessarily having been killed by it.
Romans 11:25 " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."And no, that "great multitude" does not... include Jews. The Jews among the 144,000 are the only Israelites of the seed that are 'sealed'. So I don't know why in the world you would try to push that idea of Jews among the great multitude.
I believe there is a millennium between the trump (voice) of God in 1 Thes and the last trump (voice) of God in 1 Cor.Well for the church, the change takes place at the last rump (not the 7th trump of revelation) It is okay if you do not accept it, we all will see when it comes.
Do you have any evidence that the rapture will be invisible?As for being seen being caught up? You are forming a conclusion based on other events. Just because Jesus and the witnesses were seen does not mean the people caught up in the rapture will be seen. Like I said, time will tell.
A government leader tries to take over the world through war. War brings famine and pestilence. Death from the government leader, war, famine, and pestilence, is limited to 25% of the population. No government leader has had the ability to bring death to more than 25% of the world population in any generation since the first century.If you don't know what I mean, how can you get my point?
Even with 2 world wars, it was still closer to 10% with 90% from natural causes.
The point is that at the Second Coming it will be 25% of the population that suddenly dies of war, plague, and famine. Or simply the rapture removing people from the earth.
The 7th trumpet comes from an angel.The 7th trump is the last trump in prophecy.
wooohooo!We will bear the exact same image forever, glad I was born a pretty boy (LOL).
Israel is blinded until the end of that 70th week. AC reigns for the 2nd half of that week, 42 months. The fullness of the gentiles comes in during the 2nd half of that week as stated in Rev 7:9-14Well, for starters Paul told us "I show you a mystery" and mystery comes from the Greek word musterion and half the word (muo the derivative) ) means God is silent by closing the mouth. So, God never gave the "Rapture to the Jews because their destiny is to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom Age, so why would God confuse them with a Rapture of the Bride of Christ? Israel is the bride of God, we are the Bride of Christ, Rachel was the preferred bride, Leah the forced bride. Jacob had two brides. In Revelation the 144,000 (5 million Jews or 1/3) have the Fathers name on their forehead. You guys fail to see the big picture because you get lost in the minutia at times. Romans chapters 9-11 explains it all, but Satan is good at whispering half truths.
So, what is the Fulness of the Gentiles? many actually think it means the Gentile rule, but if that is true then why is the Beast only said to rule for 42 months? People fail to understand there has been no Beast for nigh 2000 years, because the Beast was put forth by God over Israel for 490 years of penance, and 483 of those years passed with Jesus' death, they have only 7 years left once they are put back on the clock. But can you read Romans chapters 9-11 and tell when that will happen? Its there for all to see.
Let me give a quick synapsis. In Rom. 9 Paul tells how God called Abraham and promised a child and in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Then Isaac and Rebecca conceived and before either was born, God chose Jacob over Esau, (do you gets that this is ALL ABOUT SERVICE via God's choosing yet? That vet important later on in chapter 11). And God said the Elder shall serve the Younger (Israel will be an elder unto the Church, its a FORESHADOWING). Then Paul says God hardened Pharaoh heart so who can resist His will. (But he is referring unto SERVICE unto God). Later on Paul refers to God as the Potter who molds the clay vessel. Then in chapter 10 Paul quotes Isaiah and says "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." So heading into chapter 11 its VERY CLEAR, Paul is talking about service unto God and how God choses as He so pleases, when He pleases and whom He pleases to serve Him.
In Ch. 11 Paul starts out by saying God has not cast his people away forever, but he later says Israel were cut off because of unbelief but if they turn from their unbelief they would one day be grafted back into God's family. Lastly, he says this:
Romm. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Let me break it down. Blindness IN PART means as a Nation only they are blinded, not as individual Jews, of course, God draws all men unto Him, but why couldn't Israel repent as a nation? The Diaspora, its hard to repent as a nation when you are no longer a nation !! So, until 1948 this was not even a possibility, they were as "Dead Men's Bones" just as Ezekiel 37 foretold they would be until the very end times. So, in order for Israel as a Nation to be grafted back in they have to turn from their blindness as a Nation, and they are now a nation, BUT.........they still will not repent until the Fulness of the Gentiles [Service] is come in. So, only when the Gentile Churches mission is complete will the 70th week begin. The church was not here for the 69 weeks, we will not be here for the 70th week, our mission is to spread the Gospel unto the world, that MISSION has to be complete by the time Israel's 70th week of penance falls on them. The Mortal Wound was Rome converting to Christianity. Only when the Church is gone does the Beast arise again. It takes a Beast over Israel before the 70th week penance can be completed.
I agree that the Roman Empire will be reborn. However, it will have 10 kings. The EU has many more than 10 kings.So, you thinking God should have vast details of a "Peoples God had not known" makes ZERO SENSE brother, why would God want to confuse Israel with an event that is not targeted unto them for the most part? Israel's mission was to 1.) Birth the Messiah and 2.) Rule with the Messianic King during the Kingdom Age. The Churches mission was evangelize the whole world after Israel rejected God in person, Jesus Christ. Our missions do not cross paths via the timeline.
Where did the Beast leave off? Rome, where does it back back up? The exact same place.
THE WOUND WAS HEALED.
View attachment 41206
Rome Received the Mortal Wound above
The E.U. after the Rapture will Heal the Mortal Wound by conquering as Dann. 11:40-43 shows.
View attachment 41207
CONTINUED...........