Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[Jay Ross]

No. There are others who have your same feelings about being the only one who understands Romans 7.

 

[Wrangler]

When I'm writing about Romans 7 I'm writing about the Mosaic Law because I believe Paul is addressing Israel in that chapter. I'm not writing about common laws like don't murder or rape which do not apply to me because it's impossible for a Christian to do such things

Here is the esoteric gnosticism that I rail against in Christendom. I reject code words imbued with mysticism.

Facts matter. And the fact of the matter is laws DO apply to Christians and non-Christians alike, despite any claim of no possibility of violating the law. It's an absurd Appeal to Strawman; The prohibition against murder is universal and not conditional to those supposedly capable of it while exempting those supposedly not capable of it.

Furthermore, your desire to apply this way of thinking only to the Mosaic Law is shown to be false by your statement above highlighted in red.

Moreover, just because certain law DOES NOT apply to us does not mean that no law DOES apply to us. For instance, there is the concept of jurisdiction. The laws of Lithuania and the Mosaic laws apply only to those inside of their applicable jurisdiction; namely, Lithuania and the Hebrew people.

Finally, once you recognize that God's will = "the law" then it becomes obvious that "the law" applies to us all. Given that "the law" is not merely the Mosaic law, it is misleading for Christians to use the more generic term. Relying on esoteric gnosticism is not helpful. See Law of Christ - Wikipedia

 

[RedFan]

Two hundred posts in, it's official: @Peterlag is indeed the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7. The rest of us just don't get it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You might mean anyone when you talk to those who know the Law. Paul means Jews when he says he speaks to those who know the Law. The reason you believe Paul is a sinner is because you do not believe he's talking just to Jews. I believe he's not a sinner and therefore cannot be talking to Christians, but rather Jews.

Paul doesn't say anything about Christians in the passage, so your comment about Christians is pushing the passage beyond Paul's intended meaning.

Nonetheless, Paul would consider himself a Christian and he admits that he has sin at the core of his being.

 

[Peterlag]

Paul doesn't say anything about Christians in the passage, so your comment about Christians is pushing the passage beyond Paul's intended meaning.

Nonetheless, Paul would consider himself a Christian and he admits that he has sin at the core of his being.

That's right Paul doesn't say anything about Christians in Romans 7 because he's talking to Jews. Paul's meaning in that chapter is... this is what the letter (the Law) produces. Sin. There were no chapter headings in these documents and so as you keep reading it takes you right into Romans 8 and there's where we read Christian data.

 

[Peterlag]

Two hundred posts in, it's official: @Peterlag is indeed the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7. The rest of us just don't get it.

Sad isn't it? That folks think Paul had a sin nature because God left us in a state of being alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that we battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sad isn't it? That folks think Paul had a sin nature because God left us in a state of being alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that we battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

I already showed you in rom 8, the first sentence where Paul DEFINES the 2 natures.
Is that also a misunderstood dynamic?

 

[Peterlag]

Here is the esoteric gnosticism that I rail against in Christendom. I reject code words imbued with mysticism.

Facts matter. And the fact of the matter is laws DO apply to Christians and non-Christians alike, despite any claim of no possibility of violating the law. It's an absurd Appeal to Strawman; The prohibition against murder is universal and not conditional to those supposedly capable of it while exempting those supposedly not capable of it.

Furthermore, your desire to apply this way of thinking only to the Mosaic Law is shown to be false by your statement above highlighted in red.

Moreover, just because certain law DOES NOT apply to us does not mean that no law DOES apply to us. For instance, there is the concept of jurisdiction. The laws of Lithuania and the Mosaic laws apply only to those inside of their applicable jurisdiction; namely, Lithuania and the Hebrew people.

Finally, once you recognize that God's will = "the law" then it becomes obvious that "the law" applies to us all. Given that "the law" is not merely the Mosaic law, it is misleading for Christians to use the more generic term. Relying on esoteric gnosticism is not helpful. See Law of Christ - Wikipedia

I cannot support the Law in my writings because there are way too many still teaching the Law applies to us and it does not. We are not under the Legal administration that was suited only to Israel under the Law, that is sometimes called the Mosaic Law that terminated when Jesus Christ died.

We are under what started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the second chapter of the book of Acts. And that is the present administration of Grace that is for the Church of God. It's the time period you and I now belong to because it's the Grace administration, without any distinction made between the Jew and the Gentile, which will end with the appearing of Jesus Christ.

I can't speak for you. But I cannot murder when I'm walking in the spirit. It's impossible to do so because I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit. It's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

 

[Peterlag]

No. There are others who have your same feelings about being the only one who understands Romans 7.

Sad isn't it? That folks think Paul had a sin nature because God left us in a state of being alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that we battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.

 

[Peterlag]

I already showed you in rom 8, the first sentence where Paul DEFINES the 2 natures.
Is that also a misunderstood dynamic?

Did I miss something? What verse in Romans 8?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's right Paul doesn't say anything about Christians in Romans 7 because he's talking to Jews. Paul's meaning in that chapter is... this is what the letter (the Law) produces. Sin. There were no chapter headings in these documents and so as you keep reading it takes you right into Romans 8 and there's where we read Christian data.

Explain the first half of the chapter. What's his point. I don't think you know.

 

[Peterlag]

Explain the first half of the chapter. What's his point. I don't think you know.

Of course I know. I have been able to put the whole New Testament together and make sense out of it. I tell you what the whole chapter is about in the OP. Here it is again...

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

Explain the first half of the chapter. What's his point. I don't think you know.

 

[Peterlag]

My first red flag was the Catholics teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach to look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course I know. I have been able to put the whole New Testament together and make sense out of it. I tell you what the whole chapter is about in the OP. Here it is again...

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

Why do you assume that Paul is talking to the Jews in Romans 7 but not in Romans 8? Both chapters mention the Law. Do you not see the contradiction in your assumptions? And why do you ignore Paul's testimony about himself?

 

[Peterlag]

Why do you assume that Paul is talking to the Jews in Romans 7 but not in Romans 8? Both chapters mention the Law. Do you not see the contradiction in your assumptions? And why do you ignore Paul's testimony about himself?

Paul tells us right up at the top of the chapter that he is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh.

 

[Wrangler]

I cannot support the Law in my writings because there are way too many still teaching the Law applies to us and it does not.

Unbelievable! This is where Christians lose people rather than complete our divine appointment to bring others to Christ!

I showed how the law - properly and pragmatically defined - applies to Christians and non-Christians alike. You insist on using the phrase "the law" as code words imbued with mysticism.

There you go again, doubling down on esoteric gnosticism to make a point that doesn't make a difference. Because the jurisdiction of Lithuania and Israel does not apply does NOT mean God's will does not apply to you. It does.

Here is the esoteric gnosticism that I rail against in Christendom. I reject code words imbued with mysticism.

Finally, once you recognize that God's will = "the law" then it becomes obvious that "the law" applies to us all. Given that "the law" is not merely the Mosaic law, it is misleading for Christians to use the more generic term. Relying on esoteric gnosticism is not helpful. See Law of Christ - Wikipedia

 

[Wrangler]

But I cannot murder when I'm walking in the spirit. It's impossible to do so because I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit. It's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

100% irrelevant.

Just more gibberish, esoteric gnosticism; using words imbued with mysticism.

Proper laws are objective and violations are objectively determined. People not imbued with the Spirit also don't murder. So, you're making a distinction without a difference. Talking about potential is irrelevant. Actual action is where it is at.

Did you even read my reference to Christ's law? The idea that God's will (aka, "the law)) does not apply to Christians is absurd. This is why James informs us that faith without action is dead. Proper human law simply prohibits action. Moral law both, prohibits some action and compels other action. It is inescapable for every life form.

Failure to comply equally applies to all, death.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Paul was not picking up the Cross that Jesus died on to forgive Paul all his sin.

What Paul was "picking up" was this..

"I die daily". which means "i can do all things through Christ", BECAUSE.. "ITS NOT I who live, but Christ who lives in Me"..

So, to "die daily" is to submit utterly to the Power of Christ that is real discipleship..

Vs, "im trying to be like Christ and give up stuff, as MY SELF RIGHTEOUS = idea of dying daily".

Christianity is not about trying harder to be better, as that is RELIGION.
Christianity...,is submitting to God's authority and power, utterly, so that God lives out HIS Righteousness through the born again, as "I can do all things through Christ", which is REAL discipleship.

So, when a person is trying to DO THAT of themselves...., then Jesus says...>"apart from me you can do nothing".

QUOTE: ""So, to "die daily" is to submit utterly to the Power of Christ that is real discipleship""
What you just did was to admit there is part of you that needs DAILY SUBMISSION.
AHEM, The old nature is exactly what Paul is DYING TO.

 

[rebuilder 454]

My first red flag was the Catholics teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach to look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

...and to know that when paul said "walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh." , We see that when we sin we are OBVIOUSLY not in the spirit.
When you sin, you make a decision to do that.
That is NOT the spirit of God telling you to sin, neither are you led by the spirit to do that.
You place yourself as a deity and have no need for the daily cleansing by the blood of Jesus.
And according to 1 john, THE WORD OF GOD declares anyone who says they are without sin is a liar and the love of God is not within him.
You are here to promote yourself and elevate yourself as a sinless guru that NEVER sins and has no need for the cleansing blood.

 

[rebuilder 454]

100% irrelevant.

Just more gibberish, esoteric gnosticism; using words imbued with mysticism.

Proper laws are objective and violations are objectively determined. People not imbued with the Spirit also don't murder. So, you're making a distinction without a difference. Talking about potential is irrelevant. Actual action is where it is at.

Did you even read my reference to Christ's law? The idea that God's will (aka, "the law)) does not apply to Christians is absurd. This is why James informs us that faith without action is dead. Proper human law simply prohibits action. Moral law both, prohibits some action and compels other action. It is inescapable for every life form.

Failure to comply equally applies to all, death.

Okay here's the problem. He is partially right.
Partially.
His error is error by emphasis. It is true that when I walk in the spirit I am right there in the lap of Jesus, I am intimate with him ,I am communing with him, I am right there with him as John had his ear to the breast of Jesus and could hear his heartbeat. The heartbeat of the king of the universe.
So that's a safe place.
It's just a Divine awesome resting place of feeling his warmth, and feeling his approval of just being right there with him in the spirit, walking in the spirit.
But the other side of that coin is I live in this fleshly tent. My mind is not 100% renewed. And if I cannot be tempted then I actually place myself above Jesus, because he himself was tempted.
So just the very fact that he was tempted tells us that there was something in him that could be tempted, otherwise the whole thing is a joke.
So to claim that I walk 100% in the spirit and that I'm never tempted I actually place myself above Jesus because this guy named Peter that's in here promoting himself is actually claiming that he is above the Lord Jesus Christ