Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[Peterlag]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

 

[Zachariah.]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

When Paul speaks of the deliverance of law I think he is referring to justice. If we look at God's Law as the ultimate "cause" and Justice as the "affect" created by the cause. Then to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the plane of affect, where sin resides.

So in a sence, we become the cause and the law itself rather than being the effect.

 

[quietthinker]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

How do you tell a person who thinks they know?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Why am I the only one who sees this?

Are you, how many commentaries on Romans have you read?
May I suggest you try Martin Lloyd zones commentaries on Romans.

 

[JBO]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

That is not so much about Israel and the law. It is more about himself and the law. It is very much his own personal experience and what the law means to the individual. Verses 8&9 specifically deal with his introduction to the law and his own sin once he became aware of the law and its meaning.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He is talking about himself, not Israel. He was once spiritually alive before he was old enough and mature enough to understand the law. But when the commandment came, that is, when he learned and understood, sin came alive and he died. Hie sinned and he died. He is anthropomorphizing both law and sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that he wanted to do good, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the law that he was referring to was not always the Law of God. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God that he served with his mind with the law of sin that he served with his flesh and he contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit. After all, the Spirit is God. Furthermore, in Romans 8:3-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to increase, however, in Romans 7:5, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin rather than to the Law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatian 2:19, Galatian 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56. Moreover, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so verses that are interpreted as referring to the Law of God should make sense for it to be referring to something that Paul delighted in doing, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 and 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. Likewise, Romans 7:6 speaks about being freed from a law that held us captive and in Romans 7:23, it is the law of sin that Paul described as holding him captive.

In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, so being a doer of the Law of God is the content of His gift of eternal life, which is why Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), which also means that you are essentially interpreting Romans 7-8 as rejecting God's gift of eternal life. In Romans 7:1-3, at no point was the woman set free from needing to obey the Law of God, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in 7:4 that in the same way we have been set free from the Law of God, but rather we need to be set free from the law of sin that was hindering us from bearing fruit for God by obeying the Law of God. In other words, embodying God's word through following the example of the one who is the embodiment of God's word is the way to be unified with him and it would be absurd to think that the way to be unified with God's word made flesh is by rejecting God's word. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so only those who are walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law should consider the verses that are speaking about those who are in Christ to be referring to them, such as in Romans 8:1.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

I know you believe in sinless perfection, but you are mistaken here.

It is not that there is no more sin nature in a man, but that we can walk apart from our sin nature which still battles to control the soul.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Except in vs 25 he identifies the 2 natures at work in the believer.

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know you believe in sinless perfection, but you are mistaken here.

It is not that there is no more sin nature in a man, but that we can walk apart from our sin nature which still battles to control the soul.

Exactly
Paul was actually saying that the one i give credence to determines my victory.
So he lied when he said he understands rom 7

 

[rebuilder 454]

Btw, Paul's letter in the op is to romans, not hebrews.

 

[Peterlag]

I know you believe in sinless perfection, but you are mistaken here.

It is not that there is no more sin nature in a man, but that we can walk apart from our sin nature which still battles to control the soul.

There are no words in the Bible that refers to sinless perfection. So whatever you are talking about is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how it's written in 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV)...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[Peterlag]

In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that he wanted to do good, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the law that he was referring to was not always the Law of God. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God that he served with his mind with the law of sin that he served with his flesh and he contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit. After all, the Spirit is God. Furthermore, in Romans 8:3-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to increase, however, in Romans 7:5, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin rather than to the Law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatian 2:19, Galatian 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56. Moreover, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so verses that are interpreted as referring to the Law of God should make sense for it to be referring to something that Paul delighted in doing, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 and 7:22 as both referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. Likewise, Romans 7:6 speaks about being freed from a law that held us captive and in Romans 7:23, it is the law of sin that Paul described as holding him captive.

In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, so being a doer of the Law of God is the content of His gift of eternal life, which is why Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying it (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), which also means that you are essentially interpreting Romans 7-8 as rejecting God's gift of eternal life. In Romans 7:1-3, at no point was the woman set free from needing to obey the Law of God, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in 7:4 that in the same way we have been set free from the Law of God, but rather we need to be set free from the law of sin that was hindering us from bearing fruit for God by obeying the Law of God. In other words, embodying God's word through following the example of the one who is the embodiment of God's word is the way to be unified with him and it would be absurd to think that the way to be unified with God's word made flesh is by rejecting God's word. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so only those who are walking in obedience to the Mosaic Law should consider the verses that are speaking about those who are in Christ to be referring to them, such as in Romans 8:1.

You believe Romans 7:25-8:2, is referring to Paul in the same time point...

"That he contrasted the Law of God that he served with his mind with the law of sin that he served with his flesh..."

I do not. I believe what he served in the flesh was before Christ came in and what he serves in the mind is what he does after the spirit of Christ came in.

 

[Peterlag]

That is not so much about Israel and the law. It is more about himself and the law. It is very much his own personal experience and what the law means to the individual. Verses 8&9 specifically deal with his introduction to the law and his own sin once he became aware of the law and its meaning.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He is talking about himself, not Israel. He was once spiritually alive before he was old enough and mature enough to understand the law. But when the commandment came, that is, when he learned and understood, sin came alive and he died. Hie sinned and he died. He is anthropomorphizing both law and sin.

He as a Jewish guy is talking to his Jewish buddies about what they had before Christ comes in.

 

[Johann]

He as a Jewish guy is talking to his Jewish buddies about what they had before Christ comes in.

Every believer is engaged in an ongoing spiritual warfare that takes place within us.

Ephesians 4:22-24 identifies the combatants as the “old man” or old nature, and the “new man” or new nature.

These two are constantly at odds, seeking to either pull us as believers into some form of sinful activity or pull us toward Christ-honoring conduct. The Apostle Paul acknowledged that he too struggled as this warfare waged within him.

He stated, “For what I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I” (Romans 7:15). Every believer can experientially identify with this inner conflict. We want to live apart from sin, as did Paul, but the “… sin [nature] that dwelleth in me” (vs. 17, 20b) is constantly luring us away from the proper path. When believers are in a good place spiritually, they can say with Paul, “…I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (vs. 22). Why, then, if we yearn to live for Christ and do what is pleasing to Him, do we so often fail in sin? Romans 7:23 describes it this way, “But I see another law (or fixed principle) in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”

The bad news is that this unseen spiritual conflict will continue within us until the day we go home to be with Christ or until He comes for us in the Rapture. The good news is twofold. One day we will be free of this conflict. The old nature will be eradicated when we are taken to our heavenly home. Then we will live in continual victory. But until then, we have God’s written Word and indwelling Holy Spirit to strengthen our new nature. To the extent we avail ourselves of both, we’ll find victory.

You are not alone in this battle or in failures. Stay homesick for heaven, stay in the Word, and seek to yield yourself to the Holy Spirit.

As to Paul in Romans 7-

The Conflict Between the Old and New Natures
by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam


Concerning the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer, St. Paul says:

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal. 5:17).

Regarding this conflict in his own personal experience, he writes:

“For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members” (Rom. 7:19,22,23).

It has been taught by some that we need not experience this continual strife between the old nature and the new. They say: “Get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th.”

We would remind such that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and Romans 8 at the same sitting; that in the original language the letter goes right on without interruption — without even a chapter division.

Thus the same apostle who exclaims: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1) refers in the same letter, only a few sentences before, and in the present tense, to “the law of sin which is in my members,” and freely acknowledges the present operation of that law in his members, as we have seen above.

How then shall we get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th? Paul experienced both at the same time, and so do we, for while we are free from the condemnation of sin, sin itself nevertheless continues to work within us, and we must constantly “mortify the deeds of the body” (Rom. 8:13).

 

[Gottservant]

It's prudent to avoid the Law, while you have no conviction, by which you may obey it.

But after you gain confidence in your faith, keeping the Law to a barren corner, makes more sense.

What I am saying is "even if you don't have confidence in the Law at the moment, at some point you will just get on with your life".

 

[JBO]

He as a Jewish guy is talking to his Jewish buddies about what they had before Christ comes in.

If that is your take on Romans 7, then you have missed the whole point of Paul's teaching. The entire passage of Romans 6:1-8:39 Is a declaration that the all-sufficiency of grace gives victory over sin, something the law could not do. Even so, the victory through grace does not mean that the law is bad. And that victory is real even though the Christian continues to struggle against sin. Paul describes that struggle by using himself as the example. He describes the nature of the struggle and source of the struggle.

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 6​

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that gracemay abound?
2 God forbid*. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longertherein*?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into JesusChrist were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: thatlike as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of hisdeath, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should notserve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed[a] from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also livewith him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instrumentshttps://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/romans/6.html#references-footnotes of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, asthose that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not underthe law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,but under grace? God forbid*.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants toobey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin untodeath, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which[c] wasdelivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield yourmembers servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What* fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are nowashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal lifethrough Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Spyder]

Scripture never contradicts itself. If we think that there is no way that we can now sin, I think scripture needs more study.

After all, why would Paul even say this if we cannot fail? Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
___________

Matthew 10:22 ESV And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:4-6 ESV And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

John 3:36 ESV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 15:6 ESV If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 Corinthians 10:12 ESV Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 Corinthians 15:2 ESV And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

These and many more say the same thing.

 

[Peterlag]

If that is your take on Romans 7, then you have missed the whole point of Paul's teaching. The entire passage of Romans 6:1-8:39 Is a declaration that the all-sufficiency of grace gives victory over sin, something the law could not do. Even so, the victory through grace does not mean that the law is bad. And that victory is real even though the Christian continues to struggle against sin. Paul describes that struggle by using himself as the example. He describes the nature of the struggle and source of the struggle.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed. Our minds are similar to computers in the sense they can be programmed, and once programmed, they will continue to function as programmed until we reprogram them. And this is what Romans is talking about when it states we should renew our minds. Our old sin nature programmed our minds how to walk by the flesh when we were born in sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It’s not in the process of becoming new because it’s already as pure and perfect as it can be.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Romans 6:5-6
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is not something that has yet to happen or has to happen over and over. It’s a done deal because in our new, born-again spirit, we are dead to sin. And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.

 

[Peterlag]

Every believer is engaged in an ongoing spiritual warfare that takes place within us.

Ephesians 4:22-24 identifies the combatants as the “old man” or old nature, and the “new man” or new nature.

These two are constantly at odds, seeking to either pull us as believers into some form of sinful activity or pull us toward Christ-honoring conduct. The Apostle Paul acknowledged that he too struggled as this warfare waged within him.

He stated, “For what I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I” (Romans 7:15). Every believer can experientially identify with this inner conflict. We want to live apart from sin, as did Paul, but the “… sin [nature] that dwelleth in me” (vs. 17, 20b) is constantly luring us away from the proper path. When believers are in a good place spiritually, they can say with Paul, “…I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (vs. 22). Why, then, if we yearn to live for Christ and do what is pleasing to Him, do we so often fail in sin? Romans 7:23 describes it this way, “But I see another law (or fixed principle) in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”

The bad news is that this unseen spiritual conflict will continue within us until the day we go home to be with Christ or until He comes for us in the Rapture. The good news is twofold. One day we will be free of this conflict. The old nature will be eradicated when we are taken to our heavenly home. Then we will live in continual victory. But until then, we have God’s written Word and indwelling Holy Spirit to strengthen our new nature. To the extent we avail ourselves of both, we’ll find victory.

You are not alone in this battle or in failures. Stay homesick for heaven, stay in the Word, and seek to yield yourself to the Holy Spirit.

As to Paul in Romans 7-

The Conflict Between the Old and New Natures
by Pastor Cornelius R. Stam


Concerning the conflict continually going on between the old and new natures in the believer, St. Paul says:

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal. 5:17).

Regarding this conflict in his own personal experience, he writes:

“For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

“But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members” (Rom. 7:19,22,23).

It has been taught by some that we need not experience this continual strife between the old nature and the new. They say: “Get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th.”

We would remind such that the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 7 and Romans 8 at the same sitting; that in the original language the letter goes right on without interruption — without even a chapter division.

Thus the same apostle who exclaims: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1) refers in the same letter, only a few sentences before, and in the present tense, to “the law of sin which is in my members,” and freely acknowledges the present operation of that law in his members, as we have seen above.

How then shall we get out of the 7th of Romans into the 8th? Paul experienced both at the same time, and so do we, for while we are free from the condemnation of sin, sin itself nevertheless continues to work within us, and we must constantly “mortify the deeds of the body” (Rom. 8:13).

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed. Our minds are similar to computers in the sense they can be programmed, and once programmed, they will continue to function as programmed until we reprogram them. And this is what Romans is talking about when it states we should renew our minds. Our old sin nature programmed our minds how to walk by the flesh when we were born in sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It’s not in the process of becoming new because it’s already as pure and perfect as it can be.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Romans 6:5-6
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is not something that has yet to happen or has to happen over and over. It’s a done deal because in our new, born-again spirit, we are dead to sin. And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.