Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

[Hobie]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined below. Thanks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

Thanks to the NIV for differentiating these two.

Basically a capital L indicates the Books of the Law, as opposed the law itself.
This sheds light on the fulfillment of the law in Matthew 5:17.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE - Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and God's law?

I see God's law as the law God gave us in our human conscience.
(which may be the ONLY positive outcome of the Fall)
The knowledge of good and evil.

This idea is definitely more obscure biblically.
Still, when weighed against the other evidence...

Romans 7:22 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

COMPARE - What law do those not having the law have?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law
are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when
God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined above. Thanks.

There is only one Law that stands forever and ever written by God with His own finger, and if we if we keep it, it shows who we love and follow...

 

[St. SteVen]

There is only one Law that stands forever and ever written by God with His own finger, and if we if we keep it, it shows who we love and follow...

What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

 

[Johann]

What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

"But now" Paul is contrasting the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, the old age of rebellion with the new age of righteousness. This would then parallel "at the present time" (cf. Rom. 3:26; "but now" of Rom. 6:22; 7:6).

"now apart from the Law"

It is often hard to be certain whether Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law (NASB) or law in general (NRSV, TEV, NJB, NIV) in these opening chapters. In this context the Jewish Law fits Paul's argument best. All humans have violated every set of moral, societal guidelines whether internal or external. Our problems as fallen mankind is that we want no guidelines at all except our own selfish, self-centered desires (cf. Genesis 3) which so characterizes modern western individualism.

NASB"the righteousness of God"
NKJV, NRSV"the righteousness of God"
TEV"God's way of putting people right with himself"
NJB"God's saving justice"

There is no definite article with "righteousness." This does not refer to God's character, but God's way of imparting forgiveness and acceptance to sinful people. This very phrase was used in the theological theme of Rom. 1:16-17. The clearly revealed mechanism is faith in the crucified Jesus Christ (cf. Rom. 3:22,24-26).

The fact that this term (dikaiosonē) and its derivatives (see note at Rom. 2:13) are used so often in this context shows its significance (cf. Rom. 1:17; 3:5,21,22,25,26; 4:3,5,6,9,11,13,22; 5:17,21; 6:13,16,18,19,20; 8:10; 9:28,30,31; 10:3,4,5,6,10,17). This Greek term is from an OT construction metaphor (tsadak) of "a standard" or "a measuring reed" (see Special Topic at Rom. 1:17). The standard is God Himself. This term reflects God's character which is freely given to fallen mankind through Christ (cf. chap. 4; 2 Cor. 5:21). Admitting their need and accepting God's gift was, and is, so humiliating to prideful, self-centered mankind-especially legalistic, religious mankind.

"has been manifested"
This phrase is very similar to 1:17. However, the verb tense is different. The verb here can be translated, "has been and continues to be clearly revealed." It is a perfect passive indicative, while the synonym in Rom. 1:17 is present passive indicative. God has clearly revealed the gospel both in the OT (cf. Romans 4) and in Jesus.

"being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets"
This referred to two of the three divisions of the Hebrew canon (Law, Prophets, and Writings). These first two were used to refer to the whole (see note at Rom. 3:19; Matt. 5:17). This clearly showed that the gospel was contained in preliminary form in the OT (cf. Luke 24:27,44; Acts 10:43). It was not an afterthought, "Plan B," or a last minute crash program (cf. Rom. 1:2).

3:22 "through faith in Jesus Christ" This is literally "through faith of Jesus Christ." This is a genitive construction. It is repeated in Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9 as well as a similar form in Rom. 3:26; Gal. 2:16,20; 3:22. It could mean

1. the faith or faithfulness of Jesus (subjective genitive)

2. Jesus as the object of our faith (objective genitive)

The same grammatical construction in Gal. 2:16 makes #2 the best choice.

This shows the main aspect of God's justification. It is the righteousness of God made operative in one's life by God's free gift through Christ (cf. Rom. 4:5; 6:23), which must be accepted by faith/belief/trust (cf. Eph. 2:8-9) and lived out in daily life (cf. Eph. 1:4; 2:10).

J.

 

[David in NJ]

There is only one Law that stands forever and ever written by God with His own finger, and if we if we keep it, it shows who we love and follow...

TRUE = follow God's Law

How are you going to keep that which you already broke, and will break again?

If it were possible to 'please' God by the 10 Commandments then why did God send His only Begotten Son to die on the Cross?

In TRUTH, the Commandments come from God and HE gave them to us to follow.

Yet, of and by itself, the Ten Commandments cannot save anyone - so what gives my Brother?

What are the Ten Commandments in and of itself AND why do people think that is all that is needed?

Better then the ten commandments = "This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him."

 

[David in NJ]

What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

Is anyone within EYE-SIGHT of what is written here?

We have the law of Moses and HIND-sight.................

Better to LOOK ahead rather then looking back = remember Lot's wife..............

 

[ewq1938]

Why did the Apostle Paul say he was not under the law? He was a Jew, As you say, the Jews had possession of the law. (Torah scroll)

1 Corinthians 9:20 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.

/

Yes so he speaks to unbelieving Jews who are under the law meaning they believe they must obey the law of Moses (and the ten commandments) while Paul was a believing Jew and he was not under the law and did not obey it.

Paul says he would imitate or pretend to be a Jew under the law to get close to them to "win them" which means to convince them Jesus is the Messiah and to also forsake the law as Paul had.

 

[Soyeong]

Why did the Apostle Paul say he was not under the law? He was a Jew, As you say, the Jews had possession of the law. (Torah scroll)

1 Corinthians 9:20 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.

/

Yes so he speaks to unbelieving Jews who are under the law meaning they believe they must obey the law of Moses (and the ten commandments) while Paul was a believing Jew and he was not under the law and did not obey it.

Paul says he would imitate or pretend to be a Jew under the law to get close to them to "win them" which means to convince them Jesus is the Messiah and to also forsake the law as Paul had.

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we are not it is the position that we are free to sin all we like, which is clearly contrary to what taught, so 1 Corinthians 9:20 could not be referring the Mosaic Law. Paul was not speaking about committing sin in order to reach sinners with the Gospel message to calling to repent from our sins and he was not openly admitting to deceiving people, but rather he was speaking about giving up his rights in order to meet people where they were at. It is contradictory to think that we should believe in God, but not His instructions. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said that he was not outside the Law of God, so he was not saying that he had forsaken the Mosaic Law or trying to convince other to forsake the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so to forsake the Mosaic Law is to forsake Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

The only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and Prophets is through faith in Christ. There is a difference between the way to become righteous and what we are becoming when we become righteous. The only way to become righteous is by faith apart from being required to have first obeyed God's law, but someone becoming righteous through faith means becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law through faith, so it is contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works, just as it is contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works.

 

[Soyeong]

Regardless of the Gentile mindset 2,000 years ago we must compare the law of Moses to the GOSPEL.

They are not permitted to coexist before God since only One can bring us into Salvation and the very Throne of God.

Take an unlawful guess which One it is..................................

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we don't need to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that we don't need salvation.

 

[St. SteVen]

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is

Did Cain know it was a sin to murder his brother?
Did Abram know it was a sin to mate with Hagar?
Did Lot understand that what was happening in Sodom was sinful?
None of them had the Mosaic law.

The Apostle tells us that sin was in the world before the law.
Seems the law he is referring to is God's law of human conscience.
Have you read the OP posts for this topic? ??? Might help.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

1 Corinthians 9:20 could not be referring the Mosaic Law.

I think it is most certainly referring to Mosaic law. (the law)
From the OP... pasted below.

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What do you make of this?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

The only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and Prophets is through faith in Christ. There is a difference between the way to become righteous and what we are becoming when we become righteous. The only way to become righteous is by faith apart from being required to have first obeyed God's law, but someone becoming righteous through faith means becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law through faith, so it is contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works, just as it is contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works.

I agree, depending on your definition of the term "God's law".
How do you define the term "God's law"? If you mean the Mosaic law, then I disagree.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law
are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day
when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

Romans 7:22 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

/

 

[David in NJ]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we don't need to obey the Mosaic Law is the position that we don't need salvation.

No one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God.

Are you ready to have your spiritual eyes open to Truth?

 

[Soyeong]

No one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God.

In Deuteronomy 30, it is the basis of the New Covenant, which prophesies about the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising their hearts, and about them returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, the context is in regard to the Israelites returning from exile, and they describe God circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit by saying that God will put the Mosaic Law in our minds and write it on our hearts, and that he will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law. So the New Covenant is all about Israel returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law and someone having a circumcised heart does not refer to anything other than living in obedience to it.

The Father has made His will known through the Mosaic Law (Psalms 40:8), so saying that no one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God is in accordance with Jesus saying in Matthew 7:21-23 that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God in contrast with saying he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

Are you ready to have your spiritual eyes open to Truth?

The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), Jesus embodied that truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah (John 14:6), and the way to open our spiritual eyes to the truth by following his example.

 

[David in NJ]

In Deuteronomy 30, it is the basis of the New Covenant, which prophesies about the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising their hearts, and about them returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, the context is in regard to the Israelites returning from exile, and they describe God circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit by saying that God will put the Mosaic Law in our minds and write it on our hearts, and that he will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law. So the New Covenant is all about Israel returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law and someone having a circumcised heart does not refer to anything other than living in obedience to it.

The Father has made His will known through the Mosaic Law (Psalms 40:8), so saying that no one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God is in accordance with Jesus saying in Matthew 7:21-23 that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God in contrast with saying he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.


The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), Jesus embodied that truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah (John 14:6), and the way to open our spiritual eyes to the truth by following his example.

The Father has made His will known through the Mosaic Law (Psalms 40:8), so saying that no one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God is in accordance with Jesus saying in Matthew 7:21-23 that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God in contrast with saying he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

@Phoneman777 @Brakelite @ewq1938 @Hobie @Big Boy Johnson @BarneyFife @The Learner

What @Soyeong and 'law keepers' are attempting here by elevating the law of Moses above the Law of MESSIAH is in fact lawlessness and the penalty is death and eternal separation from God = Exodus 31:12-17


And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you.
Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it,
that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

No one who is uncircumcised in heart can enter the Kingdom of God. = Romans chapter 2
"In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it."


When a person seeks salvation thru the works of the law it only produces death = 1 Cor 15:56
"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law."

Are you ready to have your spiritual eyes open to Truth and invite the Anointed Eternal High Priest to circumcise your heart?

 

[St. SteVen]

Are you ready to have your spiritual eyes open to Truth and invite the Anointed Eternal High Priest to circumcise your heart?

Strong words.

How about if we let those who have connected with God by way of the law worship as they see fit?
I don't like it if they they push their religion on me, and I don't like it when we push our religion at them.

Romans 14:4-5 NIV
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand,
for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another;
another considers every day alike. Each of them
should be fully convinced in their own mind.

/ cc: @Phoneman777 @Brakelite @ewq1938 @Hobie @Big Boy Johnson @BarneyFife @The Learner

 

[David in NJ]

Strong words.

How about if we let those who have connected with God by way of the law worship as they see fit?
I don't like it if they they push their religion on me, and I don't like it when we push our religion at them.

Romans 14:4-5 NIV
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand,
for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another;
another considers every day alike. Each of them
should be fully convinced in their own mind.

/ cc: @Phoneman777 @Brakelite @ewq1938 @Hobie @Big Boy Johnson @BarneyFife @The Learner

#1 - My posts are not pushing 'religion' but rather exposing it, as religion cannot save anyone.

#2- YES, God's words are STRONG and they STRENGTHEN us who place our trust in Him and His WORD.

#3 - "Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?" = You just committed this error by #4

#4 - You jumped to a false conclusion that i am pushing a "day of the week"(your post) as opposed to SEEING.

#5 - Always inquire to make sure you understand someones POV.

#6 - My Posts are addressing the ERROR of salvation thru the Mosaic law = this is the POV we R discussing

#7 - Which leads us to the 7th Day of REST

 

[St. SteVen]

#6 - My Posts are addressing the ERROR of salvation thru the Mosaic law = this is the POV we R discussing

I don't see anyone promoting that. A moot point?

/

#1 - My posts are not pushing 'religion' but rather exposing it, as religion cannot save anyone.

#2- YES, God's words are STRONG and they STRENGTHEN us who place our trust in Him and His WORD.

#3 - "Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?" = You just committed this error by #4

#4 - You jumped to a false conclusion that i am pushing a "day of the week"(your post) as opposed to SEEING.

#5 - Always inquire to make sure you understand someones POV.

#6 - My Posts are addressing the ERROR of salvation thru the Mosaic law = this is the POV we R discussing

#7 - Which leads us to the 7th Day of REST

I'll let @Phoneman777 @Brakelite @ewq1938 @Hobie @Big Boy Johnson @BarneyFife @The Learner
Decide if I am guilty of any of that.

/

 

[Behold]

4 Things that the born again believer needs to know about the "law".

1.) There is no Moses Law in Heaven, as God and those who exist there as "seated in heavenly places" dont need it, and are not under it.

2.) The Born again are "NOT under The Law...but are under GRACE".

3.). "Christ is the END...OF...THE ... LAW, = for everyone who Believes (born again)...

4.) "the Law, came by MOSES....but GRACE and TRUTH...came by Jesus The Christ".

 

[David in NJ]

my Brother @St. SteVen says: "I don't see anyone promoting that. A moot point?"

/

I'll let @Phoneman777 @Brakelite @ewq1938 @Hobie @Big Boy Johnson @BarneyFife @The Learner
Decide if I am guilty of any of that.

/

@St. SteVen says: "I don't see anyone promoting that. A moot point?"

Right, you are not seeing that.........start with posts from @Soyeong, which are the posts i am addressing as well as the WHOLE Truth of the Law that God gave to Moses, specifically = Exodus 31:12-17



lol - your second 'oops' = letting man decide what God has spoken = (remember cessation of gifts?)

However, there is One Man who you should listen to for the correct understanding of His Law =
the LORD Jesus Christ and His Gospel
AND
the letters of the Apostles Peter, Paul and John who also have the correct understanding.

You must FIRST see from the Gospel or you can come to a erroneous conclusion on the Sabbath Rest of God.

What does Exodus 31:12-17 demand and did MESSIAH do away with that Most Holy Commandment???

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.