The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[dragonfly]

Hi kepha,

Thanks for your reply. I want to correct your impression that Axehead had not quoted Eph 2:20, with this corrected quote:

Eph 2:19-22 presents the church as "the household of God," a "holy temple" and a "habitation of God." And in the same verses he presents this body of people as "being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone..."

"Foundation of the apostles and prophets" - the "of" is genitive of possession not locative of position.

In other words, Jesus was Paul's foundation, and Peter's foundation and John's and James' and Andrew's and all the other apostles.

The apostles are not part of the foundation!

The Holy Spirit is saying the "apostles' and prophets' foundation (which is Jesus Christ)".

When Paul presented the foundation claimed by all the apostles and prophets - then as an appositive statement he explains who that foundation is: it is "Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone."

Here's Young's Literal Translation. I've altered the order of the words to reflect Axehead's research:

Ephesians 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but of the saints' fellow-citizens, and of God's household, 20 being built upon Jesus Christ, the apostles' and prophets' foundation, himself being chief corner-[stone], 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together increases to an holy sanctuary in the Lord, 22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

There is nothing about the apostles and prophets being the foundation.

 

[Axehead]

Hi kepha,

Thanks for your reply. I want to correct your impression that Axehead had not quoted Eph 2:20, with this corrected quote:



Here's Young's Literal Translation. I've altered the order of the words to reflect Axehead's research:

Ephesians 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but of the saints' fellow-citizens, and of God's household, 20 being built upon Jesus Christ, the apostles' and prophets' foundation, himself being chief corner-[stone], 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together increases to an holy sanctuary in the Lord, 22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

There is nothing about the apostles and prophets being the foundation.

Thank you for paying attention, dragonfly.

Your elucidation is appreciated.

Axe, don't you see that you have stated to be only partly right?

"We all have a part of it, but only He has all of it. "

It is invariably the case that even so called "advanced" Christians have a good sense about Jesus (the Head) and even their own walk with Him....but completely ignore the purpose of the entity called the "Ecclesia".

Who can discern the Body? This thread is ample proof of the rarity of this.

The church witness is sick and dying because we cannot seem to discern the Body.

1Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1Co 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's

1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Paul is accurately describing the present state of the church. But people will remain blind to this as it is prophesied.

If the Head is not present then the discerning of the Body results in a discernment of death.

How do we discern a body in the physical? We see, hear, touch and sometimes smell and it is exactly the same in the spiritual. If we see no life, hear nothing, smell death and touch something cold and lifeless, we know that we have discerned death in a body. Conversely if we see Life, hear Life, smell Life (Anointing), and touch Life, then we know that we have discerned Life in the body!

Discerning the Lord's Body is "knowing" whether or not the Lord is there, first and foremost.

However, we cannot correctly "discern the Body" if we do not know Christ; He is our one Standard.

It is HIM
and HIS BODY
and His LIFE
which we are looking for in one another.

We will not recognize His Life if we do not know Him intimately!

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hello, brother Episkopos,

But people will remain blind to this as it is prophesied.

You have made other similar statements which have the same effect as this one. You are now prophesying blindness to continue in them. Do you realise this is neither the word nor the will of the Lord since His advent here?

The reason God cursed some in Israel with blindness, was their unrepentant idolatry at the time. It was obvious for all to see: Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatever thing goes forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for [then] had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings to her, we have wanted all [things], and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her, without our men?

Yes, the manifestation of idolatry in our culture is slightly more subtle, but the terms of judgment have changed, Acts 17:31, Romans 2:16, Romans 12:19, 20, 21, 1 Corinthians 2:9 - 16, and it's impossible to know if a Christian with possessions retains them through materialism only, or, his heart is right with God, and God has given them to both 'richly enjoy', as Paul says, and to distribute according to His direction. It is possible to give things away against His will, as I guess you may know from experience. At the same time, the Lord told us not to let our right hand know what our left hand is doing, in respect to the giving of alms. While It is to be done discreetly, it is also expected of the righteous. John 13:29

Only the rich young ruler Mark 10:21 who had made an idol out of his wealth, was asked by the Lord to sell everything, because the Lord knew that's how that man would be freed from the bondage of possessiveness to what he owned. And there are people today who feel urged to take such radical action, but it's difficult to show from the New Testament that selling everything is an essential aspect of Christianity, because hospitality to strangers was such a major part of Jewish culture. Romans 12:13. If the teachings of Jesus Christ are to be believed, then we are to be stewards, as well as distributers. The 'goods' are all His, (lest we forget), despite Peter's comment: Acts 5:4.

Not everyone is in bondage to possessions or money. God sees the heart. And only God is empowered by Himself to search hearts, as Jeremiah 17:10 informs us: I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.

But also, we can choose to be searched - Psalm 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

When Zacchaeus Luke 19 offered to give away half of his possessions, the Lord did not criticise him for not having offered to give 'all'; because the Lord had discerned from his testimony about putting things right with those he had defrauded, that the attitude of his heart was now right - righteous. Had Jesus said a word to convict him? No, not a whisper. Simply the presence of the Lord in Zacchaeus' home (heart) had begun to have its effect.

The apostle John rightly observes that people who love darkness more than light John 3:19, or, who walk in darkness (hatred of brethren, unlove) 1 John 2:9, will remain blind or will become blind. And, we know from 2 Cor 4:2, 3, 4, 5, that 'the god of this world' (gold, Satan's favourite camouflage, 1 Tim 6:10, Rev 3:17) makes blind those who give themselves to focusing on it, when the eyes of their heart should be on Christ: Mark 12:30, Col 3:2, Matt 6:23, Matt 18:9.

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if itherefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Can you see that God's curse was upon idolaters? God did not curse either the whole of Israel, nor the rest of humanity with it. We know this because there were those in Israel when Messiah was born, to whom the angels came, who rejoiced to see the newborn Saviour, and there were many others who watched for Him, or who recognised Him when they heard Him or through His deeds, and the same is true today. Of course this always creates a moment of choice for the person with that recognition, and they will bear the consequences of their choices - as we do for ours.

Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land. 13 But yet in it [shall be] a tenth, and [it] shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves: so] the holy seed [shall be] the substance thereof.

Year later, Isaiah prophesied this - Isaiah 61:
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Several centuries later, 'the holy seed', 'the substance' of the tenth part of Judah which had returned to Jerusalem from Babylon, stood up in His local synagogue and read out the lines from Isaiah which I emboldened above - with one major and merciful change:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


There are several reasons why the 'damnation' of the scribes and Pharisees will be 'greater'. One of them is that they chose not to believe Jesus Christ, even when He was standing right in front of them: Matt 23:13, 14, Luke 20:5, 6, 7, 16, 19, 20, 25, 26; John 8:24, 39, 40, 43.

Jesus was not distracted from His own calling, by their unbelief. Heb 3:12 - 14, Heb 4:11, Heb 12:12, 13, 14, 15.


Under the New Covenant, we are called upon to prophesy a different message: 1 Tim 2:8, 7.

1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesies speaks to men edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

2 Corinthians 1:19 - 22 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you ... was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him yea, and in him Amen, to the glory of God by us.

Now he who stablishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, [is] God; who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

Romans 14:16 - 20 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

For he that in these things serves Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but evil for that man who eats with offence.

 

[neophyte]

Rex, you ask: "But first you answer me, how is it that you or pope Benedict XV came to possess the Spirit that the Apostles received at Pentecost?"

First of all of the four Gospels, two were written by men who were not apostles, and yet their writings bear the stamp of divine inspiration and authentic teaching. There is no record anywhere of Luke’s ever having met Christ, and he was certainly not one of the Twelve. Mark may have seen Christ in the flesh and indeed may have been the young man in the garden who fled naked when someone tore from his back the sheet he’d wrapped himself in. Matthias was chosen as apostle by the other apostles to replace Judas Iscariot. This choice was, according to the Acts of the Apostles, made directly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once elected, he was treated exactly as one of the original Twelve.
In other words, the Bible itself shows that Jesus gave the apostles the power to appoint successors.Along with given them the power and authority to pass on this authority down through the ages to future replacements, after all Jesus wanted not only the first century but all future Christians to be taught as he taught only his apostles while those that prefer only a "Book religion are missing out on the "Fullness of the Christian Faith by simply ignoring this very powerful verse, Luke 10: 16 and also this verse - Matt. 28:18-20. and also this verse - John 20: 21. Not just a Book Religion as seen here, also to show that your Bible Alone Religion by itself never has worked ,doesn't work and never ever will work -2 Peter: 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 , John 20:30. Your famous sola Scriptura verse of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 does not mean that only the Bible is the sole rule for salvation ,no more than food alone would be the sole ingrediant for existing , water and oxygen are also needed.Why do you refuse to acknowledge the only authoritive, teaching Church that Jesus left '' all of us"with ? For we are all members of His Church, but His Church alone and not of any other man-made church as we find in the man-made Protestant system of churches and their attached cults.

 

[Rex]

Rex, you ask: "But first you answer me, how is it that you or pope Benedict XV came to possess the Spirit that the Apostles received at Pentecost?"

First of all of the four Gospels, two were written by men who were not apostles, and yet their writings bear the stamp of divine inspiration and authentic teaching. There is no record anywhere of Luke’s ever having met Christ, and he was certainly not one of the Twelve. Mark may have seen Christ in the flesh and indeed may have been the young man in the garden who fled naked when someone tore from his back the sheet he’d wrapped himself in. Matthias was chosen as apostle by the other apostles to replace Judas Iscariot. This choice was, according to the Acts of the Apostles, made directly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once elected, he was treated exactly as one of the original Twelve.
In other words, the Bible itself shows that Jesus gave the apostles the power to appoint successors.Along with given them the power and authority to pass on this authority down through the ages to future replacements, after all Jesus wanted not only the first century but all future Christians to be taught as he taught only his apostles while those that prefer only a "Book religion are missing out on the "Fullness of the Christian Faith by simply ignoring this very powerful verse, Luke 10: 16 and also this verse - Matt. 28:18-20. and also this verse - John 20: 21. Not just a Book Religion as seen here, also to show that your Bible Alone Religion by itself never has worked ,doesn't work and never ever will work -2 Peter: 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 , John 20:30. Your famous sola Scriptura verse of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 does not mean that only the Bible is the sole rule for salvation ,no more than food alone would be the sole ingrediant for existing , water and oxygen are also needed.Why do you refuse to acknowledge the only authoritive, teaching Church that Jesus left '' all of us"with ? For we are all members of His Church, but His Church alone and not of any other man-made church as we find in the man-made Protestant system of churches and their attached cults.

I really don't want to take the time to address a reply that begins by denigrating the word of God. So you will get a pre-canned reply, as to why I have receive the gift of salvation the Holy Spirit outside of the RCC.

The simple POWERFUL truth.
John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

This is a copy and paste from another post I made. Buy reviewing the Lords prayer we see that He left no doubt about leaving us in the world but yet gifting us with all that He Himself is and received. 1 John3:2 1 Peter 2:9
Ephesians 4:8
Psalms 68:18
1 Peter 3:19

Jesus goes into an extensive prayer in John 17 for the disciples which includes.

[sup]6 [/sup]“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. [sup]7 [/sup]Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. [sup]8 [/sup]For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
[sup]9 [/sup]“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. [sup]10 [/sup]And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. [sup]11 [/sup]Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[sup][b][/sup] that they may be one as We are. [sup]12 [/sup]While I was with them in the world,[sup][c][/sup] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[sup][d][/sup] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [sup]13 [/sup]But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. [sup]14 [/sup]I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]15 [/sup]I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. [sup]16 [/sup]They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [sup]17 [/sup]Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [sup]18 [/sup]As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [sup]19 [/sup]And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

But Jesus didn't stop with the Disciples being one with God, having Gods word, sanctified by truth he went on to include, "those who will believe in Me through their word; that they also may be one in Us,


[sup]20 [/sup]“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[sup][e][/sup] believe in Me through their word; [sup]21 [/sup]that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. [sup]22 [/sup]And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: [sup]23 [/sup]I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
[sup]24 [/sup]“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. [sup]25 [/sup]O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. [sup]26 [/sup]And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”


Now put the red all together
We are all gifted the same."those who will believe in Me through their word; that they also may be one in Us, And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: [sup]23 [/sup]I in them, and You in Me; John 15:3

 

[neophyte]

Rex, sorry but you gravely misunderstand Holy Scripture.Show me proof that your interpretation is the only correct way of interpreting, why aren't the other many thousands of Protestant interpretations wrong? Only One True Interpretation of the Holy Bible and not one Protestant has it correct Only Christ's One True Apostolic which is Catholic that compiled the Books of the NT have the correct interpretation.
The Words of Jesus ,in your last post , those Words were orally [ outside some of those Words from OT] being directed from Jesus to His apostles and then orally transfered to their new converts.

 

[jiggyfly]

Rex, sorry but you gravely misunderstand Holy Scripture.Show me proof that your interpretation is the only correct way of interpreting, why aren't the other many thousands of Protestant interpretations wrong? Only One True Interpretation of the Holy Bible and not one Protestant has it correct Only Christ's One True Apostolic which is Catholic that compiled the Books of the NT have the correct interpretation.
The Words of Jesus ,in your last post , those Words were orally [ outside some of those Words from OT] being directed from Jesus to His apostles and then orally transfered to their new converts.

Yes indeed but that was before Erasmus corrupted the scripture texts.

 

[Nomad]

Only One True Interpretation of the Holy Bible and not one Protestant has it correct Only Christ's One True Apostolic which is Catholic...

Show me that Infallible interpretation. Where is it Neophyte?

 

[Rex]

It amazes me how an organization can so influence someone to the point they can't read simple English, then ask themselves "what does this mean"

 

[Axehead]

Yes indeed but that was before Erasmus corrupted the scripture texts.

Hi Jiggy,

I believe you mean Eusebius? Not Erasmus, right?


Eusebius (260-340 A.D.) was trained at Origen's school in Alexandria and was the editor of two Greek manuscripts (mss.) named Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. These two mss. were discredited and abandoned by early Christians as being corrupt. These are Roman Catholic mss. and were not used by Protestant Christians until 1881. These two mss. are the basis for Roman Catholic Bibles and every major English translation of the Bible since 1901. These mss. were not the ones used for the King James Bible. Eusebius was Roman Catholic in his doctrine (see his book, "Ecclesiastical History", Vols. 1-5). He was commissioned by Emperor Constantine to make 50 copies of Scripture for the Roman church. Eusebius copied the Gnostic Scriptures and Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

Erasmus
Contribution to the Reformation
Biography

 

[Rex]

Erasmus Greek interpretation of 1 John 5:7-8
http://bible.org/art...lem-1-john-57-8

Jiggyfly used a deep subject to poke a little fun.

We need Nomads resources, but it really not important unless you reference the verse.

 

[Nomad]

I would be happy to discuss textual criticism later this evening. I'm wondering if we should take this particular topic to Hammerstone's thread found here - http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16847-majority-text-textus-receptus-or-critical-text/page__hl__%22critical+text%22

 

[HammerStone]

I would be happy to discuss textual criticism later this evening. I'm wondering if we should take this particular topic to Hammerstone's thread found here - http://www.christian..."critical text"

That's an excellent suggestion to keep this topic on track.

Let's try and work our way back to the OP - the debate as to whether or not the church is the source of truth.

 

[neophyte]

That's an excellent suggestion to keep this topic on track.

Let's try and work our way back to the OP - the debate as to whether or not the church is the source of truth.

The magisterium is infallible when it teaches officially because Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors "into all truth" (John 16:12–13).
One method is for certain not the way of truth, and that is the myriad of personal conflicting interpretations of Holy Scripture , that is an abomination in the eyes of God. Jesus gave all authority to His apostles /successors, that is the Truth. [ Luke 10:16 ] Show me some kind of documentation from the bible or outside the bible where Jesus gave His Authority for any mere-man in the future the authority to make any other church different from His apostolic church the seat of Christian truth, the only way to the Truth is through Jesus , through the HS and through His One Apostolic Church along with that one original interpretation that was approved by every church plural because all Protestant churches have accepted the NT as compiled by the Catholic Church. Both Apostolic Traditional Teaching along with the Holy Bible are necessary for the correct understanding for the complete 'Fullness of the Faith" The compiled,[ by the bishops /HS of Catholic Church ] completed [ NT ] Holy Bible was,is,and always will be good enough for ALL True Christians and accepted by all Reformers as the inerrant Word of God which history, has been accepted and proven from all competent historians , including besides the early theologians but also by secular historians, Jewish historians and by most Protestant historians ,with the exception of such controversial groups as i.e. JWs, Mormons and the infamous Westboro Baptist church and perhaps a few other like-minded individuals.

 

[Rex]

I would be happy to discuss textual criticism later this evening. I'm wondering if we should take this particular topic to Hammerstone's thread found here - http://www.christian..."critical text"

In speaking with many that follow the catholic faith, meaning those I have personally interacted with. This phrase is usually one of the first that is used to bolster the argument for the supremacy of the CC. "Well you believe in the trinity don't you? It's not in the bible the CC has given to you".

It's almost as if the CC member is trying to cast a net over me, To the point that they insisted that the salvation I have is the result of the CC and I'm simply in a state of imperfect communion with the source.

That coupled with RCC members belief that tradition supersedes scripture your left to wonder how much tampering with scripture has taken place.
It's a shame to say but there seems to be a desire by zealous catholics to discredit the scripture to bolster their faith in the church.

I would like to have some more information on the only verse in the NT that "in a way" indicates a trinity. A little yest leavens the whole loaf

 

[dragonfly]

Hi kepha,

Just a few thoughts upon your comments in other posts, and reply to me on p4.

What you don't understand is that Paul and John are foundations of the Church, and not apart from her.

As has been shown from a correct reading of Eph 2:19 - 22, John and Paul are built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, as are all living stones. See also 1 Corinthians 3:11, where Paul states: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Any individual believer is not an Apostle.

Paul states in Romans 16:7 'Andronicus and Junia... who are of note among the apostles'.

Then there was Barnabas. Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Luke is telling us that these five men were prophets and teachers. Maybe they weren't all prophets. Maybe they weren't all teachers. That detail is less important than what follows, namely, that Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, chose
Barnabas and Saul to send on a mission, thus adding apostleship to both their ministries.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.

What's more, the men who were not being sent, 'sent them away', according to the Lord's direction.

People who start up their own church on the basis of their opinions are not commissioned directly by God to do so.

This statement is only true if said 'people' have a different opinion than God. Only they and God would know.

A preacher can have all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but that does not make him infallible.

He is 'infallible' if he stays within the remit God has given him through the Holy Spirit.

Or, you are suggesting the Holy Spirit can be fallible. I don't think you want to do that...

He who hears YOU, hears ME.

Jesus could say that because of the understanding He explains in John 17, about how they had received His words.

That does not mean he who hears individual opinions on what the Bible means is always hearing Jesus.

This is an interesting statement, because it could be true, but it entirely depends on whether the person who is listening to the 'opinions' is also listening to the Holy Spirit, and therefore - if trusting the Holy Spirit's guidance - able to discern truth.

Paul quotes an important verse from Deuteronomy, in Romans 10:8 But what says it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believes to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation. 11 For the scripture says, Whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich to all that call upon him. 13 For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

An opinion might be correct some of the time

The Holy Spirit can reveal to the seeker whether the word they are hearing is true or not, because the Holy Spirit can only witness to truth. The Spirit is truth. He is the Truth's Spirit. Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth' John 14:6. In that verse, He also said that no man comes to the Father but by Him. As the Spirit of grace, He is also the Spirit of enabling.

but obviously there is no guarantee that those apart from the Church is going to get it right all the time.

Clearly, unless every pronouncement made by your church is authored by the Lord Himself, there is a permanent question mark over the source of each of that church's pronouncements. As an individual desiring to know God for himself, your safest recourse is to a more intimate relationship with God Himself directly through Jesus Christ. Once you have received the Holy Spirit, you will never need to wonder again whether your church is offering you 'the truth'. You will know. And it won't be a matter of its opinion, yours, or someone else's but, you will know God's opinion.

 

[Axehead]

Hi kepha,

Just a few thoughts upon your comments in other posts, and reply to me on p4.

As has been shown from a correct reading of Eph 2:19 - 22, John and Paul are built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, as are all living stones. See also 1 Corinthians 3:11, where Paul states: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The Son of the Living God is the only ingredient in the foundation and there is no mixture (of men).

Paul states in Romans 16:7 'Andronicus and Junia... who are of note among the apostles'.

Then there was Barnabas. Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Luke is telling us that these five men were prophets and teachers. Maybe they weren't all prophets. Maybe they weren't all teachers. That detail is less important than what follows, namely, that Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, chose Barnabas and Saul to send on a mission, thus adding apostleship to both their ministries.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.

What's more, the men who were not being sent, 'sent them away', according to the Lord's direction

This illustrates God's dynamic and living leadership in His Church by His Spirit.

The Holy Spirit can reveal to the seeker whether the word they are hearing is true or not, because the Holy Spirit can only witness to truth. The Spirit is truth. He is the Truth's Spirit. Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth' John 14:6. In that verse, He also said that no man comes to the Father but by Him. As the Spirit of grace, He is also the Spirit of enabling.

Mat_10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Luk_10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Clearly, unless every pronouncement made by your church is authored by the Lord Himself, there is a permanent question mark over the source of each of that church's pronouncements. As an individual desiring to know God for himself, your safest recourse is to a more intimate relationship with God Himself directly through Jesus Christ. Once you have received the Holy Spirit, you will never need to wonder again whether your church is offering you 'the truth'. You will know. And it won't be a matter of its opinion, yours, or someone else's but, you will know God's opinion.

That was a very good post, dragonfly.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

To kepha,

(continued)

Paul never taught apart from the Church

I fear you have been misinformed.

Your Bible says this: (Paul speaking.)

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion ... 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (See John 14:23, John 17:23)


1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you...'

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God.

the Holy Spirit protects the CC from error

How can you be sure of anything the CC tells you if you don't have the Holy Spirit yourself. He is the only one who is able to bear witness to your spirit of what is true and what is not true? Romans 8:14, 15, 16

Remember that when the preacher tells you how much you will be blessed with a "love offering" that you can't afford.

Amen.

Who are you to say neophyte doesn't have the Holy Spirit?

This way:

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

A person can have the gift of pastoring,

Indeed. Ephesians 4:11.

but that does not supersede the office of pastor.

It depends what you mean by 'the office of pastor'. (In the Bible, there is no such thing.) A person who's been given the gift of pastoring, if they exercise their gift as the Holy Spirit leads them, is a pastor. Jesus Christ the great Shepherd is in them by the Holy Spirit, informing and leading their ministry according to New Covenant principles.

Any other kind of pastor, armed only with human sympathy and the competencies of a natural man, may struggle, even if he has attended training classes, been prayed over, and formally 'ordained'. If God was in the process because of his own relationship with the Lord, he may receive help from on High, but if God was not with him in the venture, he may find himself devoid of the necessary spiritual resources to be effective.

That is something you don't seem to understand.

I understand what you're trying to say, but your view makes no spiritual sense, unless the person who is filling 'the office of pastor' is filled with the Holy Spirit and called to be a pastor. If so, they are one gifted with pastoring.

Could it be that you have no pastors?

No. My pastor is the Lord, and those whom He chooses to care for my soul through prayer and fellowship.

 

[Rex]

Kepha, you've just been witnessed to by the Holy Spirit speaking threw a disciple of Christ

 

[Axehead]

To kepha,

How can you be sure of anything the CC tells you if you don't have the Holy Spirit yourself. He is the only one who is able to bear witness to your spirit of what is true and what is not true? Romans 8:14, 15, 16

That is exacltly correct, dragonfly. The Church will not lead us into all the truth, the Holy Spirit will. Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow".

We will not follow another who is not in harmony with the Lord's voice. Paul says, "Follow me as I follow the Lord". That is what is meant by following anyone if we are to use it in those terms.

But, ultimately, we are kept from deception by hearkening to the Shepherd's voice, not man's, unless we discern the Lord is speaking through men. God can speak through a donkey or an 8 year old and I know I should always stay alert and listening for His voice.

I understand what you're trying to say, but your view makes no spiritual sense, unless the person who is filling 'the office of pastor' is filled with the Holy Spirit and called to be a pastor. If so, they are one gifted with pastoring.

No. My pastor is the Lord, and those whom He chooses to care for my soul through prayer and fellowship.

That is a very good description of the invisible and visible church. The Pastor (Chief Shepherd) is the Lord and "those whom He chooses to bring into our lives to care for our souls through prayer and fellowship."

1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1Pe_2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Isa_40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Eze_37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

John_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

How to spot a true shepherd, one with the gift of pastoring and caring for the sheep.

1Pet_5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Eze_34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze_34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze_34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

Eze_34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

Eze_34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd (no true shepherd): and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

And one of the most important words from the Lord. Spoken at the "Last Supper".

Mar_10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar_10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar_10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar_10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Axehead