The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[jiggyfly]

Paul is an Apostle, not just any individual. He was chosen directly by God. Do you claim to be called directly by God? There is no verse that awards this distinction to any individual believer. Egalitarianism is not of God. Just look at the damage it has done to humanity in the past 200 years.

Bull hockey, in trying to save face your suggesting that God is a respecter of persons.

I among many were most definitely called by God, are you suggesting that there is a mediator other than Christ?

Look at the thousands and thousands of people murdered by religious groups such as the Roman Catholics.

 

[Axehead]

Bull hockey, in trying to save face your suggesting that God is a respecter of persons.

I among many were most definitely called by God, are you suggesting that there is a mediator other than Christ?

Look at the thousands and thousands of people murdered by religious groups such as the Roman Catholics.

Amen, we are all called by God to come to His Son and receive Him. And our callings and giftings come from the Lord not the church.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus saves and Jesus calls according to His purpose. Our calling is not from the church.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Our calling is a heavenly calling not an earthly calling.
Heb_3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Axehead

 

[Rex]

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

Numbers 11:16-17
[sup]16 [/sup]So the Lord said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you. [sup]17 [/sup]Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.

Numbers11:23-30
[sup]23 [/sup]And the Lord said to Moses, “Has the Lord’s arm been shortened? Now you shall see whether what I say will happen to you or not.”
[sup]24 [/sup]So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and he gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tabernacle. [sup]25 [/sup]Then the Lord came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.[sup][b][/sup]
[sup]26 [/sup]But two men had remained in the camp: the name of one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them. Now they were among those listed, but who had not gone out to the tabernacle; yet they prophesied in the camp. [sup]27 [/sup]And a young man ran and told Moses, and said, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”
[sup]28 [/sup]So Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, one of his choice men, answered and said, “Moses my lord, forbid them!”
[sup]29 [/sup]Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!” [sup]30 [/sup]And Moses returned to the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

 

[Axehead]

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church. http://biblia.com/bible/kjv/1Co 2.12

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv/1Co 2.12
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

John confirming through his written epistle what he already orally taught the church. (See John 1:1, "which ye have heard").

unction 1 John 2:20 is the same greek word as anointing, below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

χρίσμa
chrisma
khris'-mah
From G5548; an unguent or smearing, that is, (figuratively) the special endowment (“chrism”) of the Holy Spirit: - anointing, unction.

Don't stumble on "and ye need not that any man teach you", keep 1 John 2 in context. It is the Holy Spirit that confirms in our hearts whether someone's teaching is from God or not from God.

Axehead

 

[Nomad]

And stop suggesting that heaven can bind an error.

I didn't mention that topic at all so I'm confused by your outburst. But since you brought it up...

Now, this power of binding and loosing either belonged solely to the Apostles as they established the infant Church, or it extends to all legitimate church leadership, i.e. "elders." I'm not going to get into that here. Suffice it to say, that Matt. 18:18 clearly tells us that those who bind and loose are merely carrying out what has already been ratified in heaven, not the other way around as Rome would have it.

Mat 18:18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. -Young's Literal Translation

Mat 18:18 ᾿Aμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὅσa ἐàν δήσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔστaι δεδεμένa ἐν τῷ οὐρaνῷ, κaὶ ὅσa ἐàν λύσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔστaι λελυμένa ἐν τῷ οὐρaνῷ.

"estai" future active indicative = "will be"

"dedemena" perfect passive participle = "having been bound"

"lelumena" perfect passive participle = "having been loosed"

 

[neophyte]

The Church is Not the Source of the Truth- only heretics would believe that.

Let us see what Jesus thinks about your man-made invention, beginning around the Heretical Reformation Revolt: Jesus has His Answer for you heretics, not your answer to Jesus nor your heretical answer to His One True Universal/ Catholic Church, here is the "answer' from Jesus to you Prot heretics , found in the Holy Bible ,it is found in Matt. 18: 15-18 , in that verse ,if you really listen to Jesus ,you should be able to hear the note of amazement in Jesus' voice when He said, " If he refuses to listen even to the church..... " [ implying that for someone to ignore the Church--- His Churrch--- would be the height of stupidity and foolishness." Take heed heretic. Taken from the WORD OF GOD.

 

[epostle1]

Bull hockey, in trying to save face your suggesting that God is a respecter of persons.

The Kingdom is not a democracy, which makes fundamentalists suspicious of anything that isn't, especially an aristocracy. The Father> Jesus>Apostles>bishops>priests>deacons is an aristocracy. You system is closer to communism than it is the model given to us in the Bible.

I among many were most definitely called by God, are you suggesting that there is a mediator other than Christ?

If you were called directly by God, then prove it with signs and wonders, as all of those in the Bible were. Jesus is both God and man. That is why He is the one mediator. You are a subordinate mediator when you pray for someone. That does not make you God, or equal with God or a competitor with God. Catholics don't believe in any other mediator apart from the sense that Jesus is God/man. To think otherwise is just Protestant propaganda.

Look at the thousands and thousands of people murdered by religious groups such as the Roman Catholics.

A red herring. Open a thread on the Inquisition and/or the Crusades. I am well prepared. The Protestant Inquisition was far worse than anything that happened in Spain. It's a nowhere discussion.

Karl Marx was responsible for the deaths of 70 million people. Joseph Stalin systematically starved to death 20 million. In Poland, Hitler killed 6 million people, half Jews and the other half Catholics/Protestants, but there weren't that many Protestants in Poland, and Hitler made Lutheranism the state religion. You don't hear much about that, do you. We owe these false ideologies to the Age of the Enlightenment, and it's egalitarianism, the product of reformist philosophies.

Numbers 11:16-17
[sup]16 [/sup]So the Lord said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you. [sup]17 [/sup]Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.

Again, an aristocracy. God > Moses > seventy men. Each one of the seventy men were not of equal authority to Moses. They have the same spirit just as a deacon has the same spirit as the pastor. You should be able to understand that if your church has pastors...does it at least have bishops as in the bible?

Numbers11:23-30
[sup]23 [/sup]And the Lord said to Moses, “Has the Lord’s arm been shortened? Now you shall see whether what I say will happen to you or not.”
[sup]24 [/sup]So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and he gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tabernacle. [sup]25 [/sup]Then the Lord came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.[sup][b][/sup]
[sup]26 [/sup]But two men had remained in the camp: the name of one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them. Now they were among those listed, but who had not gone out to the tabernacle; yet they prophesied in the camp. [sup]27 [/sup]And a young man ran and told Moses, and said, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”
[sup]28 [/sup]So Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, one of his choice men, answered and said, “Moses my lord, forbid them!”
[sup]29 [/sup]Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!” [sup]30 [/sup]And Moses returned to the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

If they are all equal, why does, Joshua the son of Nun, referred to as one of his choice men?

Luke 18:29-30

If everyone reward is the same in heaven as the doctrine of "faith alone" dictates, why does Jesus say "no one...will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come..."??? Maybe your heaven is communist, but mine isn't.
_______________________________________________________________

BINDING AND LOOSING

In Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2) he writes:

"The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra the Pharisees, "became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit who they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind." The various schools had the power to bind and to loose;" that is the power to forbid and to permit. (Talmud: Ta'anit 12a). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix; Talmud: Makkot 23b).

Nomad likes to wave the Josephus flag to prove a point. I wonder if he will burn this one.

Suffice it to say, that Matt. 18:18 clearly tells us that those who bind and loose are merely carrying out what has already been ratified in heaven, not the other way around as Rome would have it.

NKJV: Matthew 18:18

[sup]18 [/sup]“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

King Nomand Version:

[sup]18 [/sup]“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already bound in heaven. :huh:

 

[Nomad]

If everyone reward is the same in heaven as the doctrine of "faith alone" dictates...

It's sad that you feel the need to create a straw man argument such as this. Faith alone is indeed the appropriating instrument of salvation, but salvation is not a reward in any way shape or form as Rome teaches. Rewards are for the faithful service of those who already believe as the NT points out in various places. If you had bothered to read your text in context you would have seen this to be the case. No one leaves all to follow Christ, (i.e. faithful service), unless they already believe unto salvation.

 

[Rex]

I didn't mention that topic at all so I'm confused by your outburst. But since you brought it up...

Now, this power of binding and loosing either belonged solely to the Apostles as they established the infant Church, or it extends to all legitimate church leadership, i.e. "elders." I'm not going to get into that here. Suffice it to say, that Matt. 18:18 clearly tells us that those who bind and loose are merely carrying out what has already been ratified in heaven, not the other way around as Rome would have it.

Absolutely perfect
God HAS Blessed You

It's sad that you feel the need to create a straw man argument such as this. Faith alone is indeed the appropriating instrument of salvation, but salvation is not a reward in any way shape or form as Rome teaches. Rewards are for the faithful service of those who already believe as the NT points out in various places. If you had bothered to read your text in context you would have seen this to be the case. No one leaves all to follow Christ, (i.e. faithful service), unless they already believe unto salvation.

I would like for kepla to ponder on those words

 

[jiggyfly]

The Kingdom is not a democracy, which makes fundamentalists suspicious of anything that isn't, especially an aristocracy. The Father> Jesus>Apostles>bishops>priests>deacons is an aristocracy. You system is closer to communism than it is the model given to us in the Bible.

Your argument if it even qualifies, is very very weak. Who mentioned anything about the Kingdom of God being a democracy?
You asked for one example of someone who was taught outside of the church and I gave you one such example. Then you try to sidestep it by responding with a bunch of hogwash. Religion is an ugly tyrant.

 

[neophyte]

Jesus commissions His First Priests [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ]
Jesus commissioned His priests to continue His work on earth [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ]
What is a priest? [ Hebrews 5: 1 ]
Jesus is the High Priest [ Heb.2: 17 ]
Jesus made His apostles priests { Luke 22: 19 ]
The apostles continued this priestly succession by ordaining other priests [ Acts 13:3, 14: 22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5 ]
How did the apostles ordain priests [ Acts 13:3 ]
Where did the authority for the priests come from [ Luke 10: 16 ]
Only a bishop can ordain a priest [ Titus 1: 5 ]

Nomad wrote this : " Now, this power of binding and loosing either belonged solely to the Apostles as they established the infant Church, or it extends to all legitimate church leadership, i.e. "elders." I'm not going to get into that here. Suffice it to say, that Matt. 18:18 clearly tells us that those who bind and loose are merely carrying out what has already been ratified in heaven, not the other way around as Rome would have it."

The answer is above , all legitimate church leadership is explained in those prededing verses that I've stated , not one of those verses apply to your Prot leadership/clergy. Protestant clergy are not ordained the bible way.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kepha,

These verses might help you out with understanding how the indwelling Holy Spirit causes a person to pray according to God the Father's will, and to receive what he asked for, which was according to God the Father's will.

John 14:8 - 26 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go to my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Judas said to him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?

Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken to you, being present with you. But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you.

Remember, the Holy Spirit only speaks what He has been given by the Father and the Son: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] to you.


Now, here are some people who were not amongst the twelve, who spoke according to the Holy Spirit's leading.

Paul was quite sure the Lord wanted everyone to know Him. He knew he was to preach to Gentiles as well as Jews, and so this comes out clearly in his exhortation to the Greeks in Athens. I mention this, so that you realise none of the disciples expected that only they would be empowered by the Holy Spirit. And, this includes the women who were in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, which neophyte tries so hard to excoriate from the Biblical record.

Acts 9:10 - 19 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord. And the Lord [said] to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays, and has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem: and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

But the Lord said to him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, Jesus, that appeared to thee in the way as thou camest, has sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.


Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: [women are included in 'men']

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied. 1 Cor 14:3

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he [Paul} sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. 18 And when they were come to him, he said to them... 20 ... how I kept back nothing that was profitable [to you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Acts 21:3 Now when we had discovered Cyprus, we left it on the left hand, and sailed into Syria, and landed at Tyre: for there the ship was to unlade her burden. 4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

Acts 21:8 And the next [day] we that were of Paul's company departed, and came to Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was [one] of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. 10 And as we tarried [there] many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 11 And when he was come to us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus says the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owns this girdle, and shall deliver [him] into the hands of the Gentiles.


There are more, which I post later, just to show more clearly how inclusively Paul regarded other believers in Christ.

 

[Axehead]

I didn't mention that topic at all so I'm confused by your outburst. But since you brought it up...

Now, this power of binding and loosing either belonged solely to the Apostles as they established the infant Church, or it extends to all legitimate church leadership, i.e. "elders." I'm not going to get into that here. Suffice it to say, that Matt. 18:18 clearly tells us that those who bind and loose are merely carrying out what has already been ratified in heaven, not the other way around as Rome would have it.

Mat 18:18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. -Young's Literal Translation

Mat 18:18 ᾿Aμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὅσa ἐàν δήσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔστaι δεδεμένa ἐν τῷ οὐρaνῷ, κaὶ ὅσa ἐàν λύσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἔστaι λελυμένa ἐν τῷ οὐρaνῷ.

"estai" future active indicative = "will be"

"dedemena" perfect passive participle = "having been bound"

"lelumena" perfect passive participle = "having been loosed"

Very nice, Nomad and dragonfly. Great examples, d-fly.

 

[epostle1]

What about Paul?
[font=Verdana']15[/font] But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him[font=Verdana']16[/font] to reveal his Son to me so that I would proclaim the Good News about Jesus to the Gentiles. When this happened, I did not rush out to consult with any human being. [font=Verdana']17[/font] Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to consult with those who were apostles before I was. Instead, I went away into Arabia, and later I returned to the city of Damascus.
Gal 1:15-17 (NLT)

Paul is not teaching apart from or independently from the Church, mainly because it was/is the same message, and Paul checked it out with the Apostles when he visited them in Jerusalem to make sure his gospel lined up with theirs. Remember he did not start his ministry until he went to Ananias (a representative of the Church) to receive the laying on of hands.

Your argument if it even qualifies, is very very weak. Who mentioned anything about the Kingdom of God being a democracy?
You asked for one example of someone who was taught outside of the church and I gave you one such example. Then you try to sidestep it by responding with a bunch of hogwash. Religion is an ugly tyrant.

I like how you say that.

 

[Rex]

Again, an aristocracy. God > Moses > seventy men. Each one of the seventy men were not of equal authority to Moses. They have the same spirit just as a deacon has the same spirit as the pastor. You should be able to understand that if your church has pastors...does it at least have bishops as in the bible?

If they are all equal, why does, Joshua the son of Nun, referred to as one of his choice men?

The question you asked and I replied to is below. It has nothing to do with who has the bigger stick in Gods economy

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

I gave you
Numbers 11:16-17
Numbers11:23-30

My post wasn't about authority, "your straw-man", it was about showing the Holy Spirit "working" "teaching" outside the formal congregation.

Surly you can understand the scripture shows the Spirit is not under the authority of even Moses, you would like to think it is under the authority of the pontiff. It is not restricted to the formal meeting of the congregation. The wind blows where it wishes, but your church teaches it has the "wind" "spirit" bottled up to do as you see fit. I'm referring to the cardinals electing popes, the vicar of christ,,,,,,,, how more pompous can a church get.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Now you show me where men command the Holy Spirit "not the gifts" in scripture. That is your claim to Apostolic succession.

 

[epostle1]

The question you asked and I replied to is below. It has nothing to do with who has the bigger stick in Gods economy


I gave you
Numbers 11:16-17

This verse doesn't prove what you want it to prove. Moses is not equal with the seventy. He is Moses. Here is a diagram:

God > Moses > seventy. That's a hierarchy. An aristocracy.

Numbers11:23-30

This does not prove anything either. 2 of the seventy are prophesying in the camp and not in the tent. They are prophets, and would not be prophesying anything contrary to Moses.

My post wasn't about authority, "your straw-man", it was about showing the Holy Spirit "working" "teaching" outside the formal congregation.

Your post doesn't hold water.

Surly you can understand the scripture shows the Spirit is not under the authority of even Moses, you would like to think it is under the authority of the pontiff.

There is no need for you to be insulting.

It is not restricted to the formal meeting of the congregation. The wind blows where it wishes, but your church teaches it has the "wind" "spirit" bottled up to do as you see fit. I'm referring to the cardinals electing popes, the vicar of christ,,,,,,,, how more pompous can a church get.

I am not talking about a congregation.
My Church teaches no such thing.
Pompous? Sure. If you were 2000 years old, you might accumulate a few things along the way. Why should we give up our heritage for fear of offending the bland? Besides, if all you can see it the externals, then you are in no position to criticize the Catholic Church.

"...This, my friends, was the ministry of the fisherman named Simon Peter and that of the Roman bishops who succeeded him. And anything more than that --such as the Pope’s princely manner or temporal (i.e., political) authority --is not intrinsic to the Papacy as Christ created it at all. Rather, these things were added on to the Papacy via its historical experience throughout the first millennium of the Christian era, which (whether rightly or wrongly) forced the Popes to adapt their style of ministry in order to meet the challenges which presented themselves to the Church. And, by these challenges I, of course, mean things like:...

...
Now, as I said, all of these things affected the style of the Papacy, eventually producing the “dictatorial” image of a Pope that is so repugnant to Protestants. Yet, this has absolutely nothing to do with Christ’s creation of the Papacy itself. Indeed, in the early days of the Christianity (when the Church was still an illegal, underground society) the Papacy manifested itself in an entirely different way; with Rome acting more as a final “court of appeal,” rather than as a “hands-on administrator” or secular-style “ruler of the Church.” Therefore, we should not be surprised if we don’t see the earliest Popes acting in an autocratic or dictatorial style (since the historical events which produced that style of Papacy had not yet taken place). On the contrary, in 1 Peter 5:1-4, St. Peter himself illustrates the style in which Popes (and, indeed, all bishops) would exercise their authority for the first 400 or so years of Christianity. He writes:

“So, I exhort the presbyters (i.e., bishops) among you, as a fellow presbyter (i.e., bishop) and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, overseeing not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd (i.e., Christ) is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.”​

So, the first Popes acted like true Christians! Big surprise! Thus, they did not exercise authority in a secular way, but rather they imitated the humility of Christ, Who did not come to be served, but to serve (e.g. John 13:5-17, Mark 9:35).
source

Now you show me where men command the Holy Spirit "not the gifts" in scripture. That is your claim to Apostolic succession.

This is why discussion with you is impossible, Rex. Show me where I said men command the Holy Spirit. I never said that.

Or is that the Holy Spirit leading you to bear false witness against me?

 

[dragonfly]

This is one more chapter, which points up the salience of Ephesians 4:11, and, how the hundred and twenty on the day of Pentecost - whether given to the church whole, as an apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor or evangelist - would be being equipped for the work of the ministry through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, one to another as members of the body of Christ, reaching out from one church to another, as well as receiving from those gifted to lead; till we all come in the unity of the faith, to the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Ephesians 4:16

Romans 16
I commend to you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: that ye receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: who have for my life laid down their own necks: to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house.

Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household]. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

For your obedience is come abroad to all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise to that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you. I Tertius, who wrote [this] epistle, salute you in the Lord. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, salutes you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city salutes you, and Quartus a brother. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

<<[Written to the Romans from Corinthus, [and sent] by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.]>>

It's no wonder Paul wrote about the Church being like a body, in which everyone - not just every believer with a spiritual gift - has a part to play. He himself was rescued and ministered to by other brethren in many different ways, at various times, and he understood how dispensible he was, apart from the Lord's calling on his life. We all count, in God's economy, and God is looking for men and women who are ready to live worthy of their calling to become sons of God.

 

[jiggyfly]

Paul is not teaching apart from or independently from the Church, mainly because it was/is the same message, and Paul checked it out with the Apostles when he visited them in Jerusalem to make sure his gospel lined up with theirs. Remember he did not start his ministry until he went to Ananias (a representative of the Church) to receive the laying on of hands.

OK, now that's totally different than the question you posed earlier.
You asked;

Then you should have no problem finding a verse where the Holy Spirit teaches individuals apart from the Church.

And I gave Paul as one example.

Another example would be John while he was at Patmos.

On a side note, the body of Christ is a spiritual entity that one must be born into.

I like how you say that.

Thanks.

 

[epostle1]

What you don't understand is that Paul and John are foundations of the Church, and not apart from her. Any individual believer is not an Apostle. People who start up their own church on the basis of their opinions are not commissioned directly by God to do so. A preacher can have all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but that does not make him infallible.

Luke 10:16

He who hears YOU, hears ME. That does not mean he who hears individual opinions on what the Bible means is always hearing Jesus. An opinion might be correct some of the time, but obviously there is no guarantee that those apart from the Church is going to get it right all the time. You do not have the luxury of having a divinely guided authority to teach you the truth about faith and morals. You have human opinions of the reformers, and non-denominationalism is reformist to the core.
YOU is the APOSTLES, to whom Jesus is talking to, which includes Peter, James, John, and the other 9 Apostles. Luke 10:16 is but one verse of many that describe infallibility.

Paul never taught apart from the Church, he laid the foundation Eph. 2:20 so how could he teach apart from her? The idea is absurd.

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth."
Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

The gospel message is not the property of individual believers, it is contained in its entirety to those who are qualified to teach it. The handing down of both written and oral revelation in its fulness is a criteria for being ordained. It's in the bible. Church is not a learning Church, that is why the APOSTLES don't need human teachers, they have the fulness of the deposit of faith. That goes hand in hand with ordination. Each"indwelt" believer has the Holy Spirit, but they are not ordained to teach, according to the Bible.

we have established how the Gospel message and the necessary authority that accompanies its preaching was passed on from God to Jesus Christ, then to the Apostles. The question we must ask now is this: after the original 12 Apostles, how is this Gospel and apostolic authority passed on? Is it passed on at all? After the death of the last Apostle, can any individual who feels "called" by God simply take up the mission and message and carry on where the Apostles left off?​

The answer to this question is plainly "no," as we have already begun to see from Scripture. The mission and the message can only be passed on by someone who first possessed it. That is, the mission does not merely entail preaching the message, but with it comes the authority to spiritually "reproduce" and pass on the necessary authority to the next generation. Let us recap and see how this is so:​

God is the source of this mission and authority​

He passes it to Jesus ("the Father has sent me... all authority has been given to me")​

Jesus passes it on - along with "all authority" to act "in my name" - to the Apostles ("as the Father has sent me, [i.e., in the same way and with the same authority] so I send you," "go and make disciples")​

The Apostles pass the mission and authority on to men like St. Timothy and St. Titus ("with all authority" Tit 2:15)​

The second apostolic generation is expected to entrust the mission to the next generation, ad infinitum​

It is this last point that we must now unpack and develop a bit further. The first generation of Apostles takes care to not only pass along the message, but also creates new pastors with apostolic authority to continue transmitting the message:​

"And when they [Ss. Paul and Barnabus] had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed." (Acts 14:23)​

(Tit. 1:5)​

(2 Tim. 2:2)
Note once again the appearance of the word "entrust" in this last passage. St. Paul expects that St. Timothy will "guard what has been entrusted" to him, and then later "entrust" that same mission and authority "to faithful men."​

Although many Protestant pastors apply St. Paul's words, "rightly divide the word of truth," to themselves, in fact, these words were written to St. Timothy specifically, not to the congregation in general. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 shows the relationship between the legitimate ambassador and Scripture:​

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)​

There is the relationship: the Scriptures are a tool for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The "man of God" has this authority.​

But, who is the "man of God?" You may wish to claim this title for yourself as well, but a short survey of Scripture's use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:​

more here: By What Authority?

 

[jiggyfly]

What you don't understand is that Paul and John are foundations of the Church, and not apart from her. Any individual believer is not an Apostle. People who start up their own church on the basis of their opinions are not commissioned directly by God to do so. A preacher can have all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but that does not make him infallible.

Luke 10:16

He who hears YOU, hears ME. That does not mean he who hears individual opinions on what the Bible means is always hearing Jesus. An opinion might be correct some of the time, but obviously there is no guarantee that those apart from the Church is going to get it right all the time. You do not have the luxury of having a divinely guided authority to teach you the truth about faith and morals. You have human opinions of the reformers, and non-denominationalism is reformist to the core.
YOU is the APOSTLES, to whom Jesus is talking to, which includes Peter, James, John, and the other 9 Apostles. Luke 10:16 is but one verse of many that describe infallibility.

Paul never taught apart from the Church, he laid the foundation Eph. 2:20 so how could he teach apart from her? The idea is absurd.

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth."
Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

The gospel message is not the property of individual believers, it is contained in its entirety to those who are qualified to teach it. The handing down of both written and oral revelation in its fulness is a criteria for being ordained. It's in the bible. Church is not a learning Church, that is why the APOSTLES don't need human teachers, they have the fulness of the deposit of faith. That goes hand in hand with ordination. Each"indwelt" believer has the Holy Spirit, but they are not ordained to teach, according to the Bible.

we have established how the Gospel message and the necessary authority that accompanies its preaching was passed on from God to Jesus Christ, then to the Apostles. The question we must ask now is this: after the original 12 Apostles, how is this Gospel and apostolic authority passed on? Is it passed on at all? After the death of the last Apostle, can any individual who feels "called" by God simply take up the mission and message and carry on where the Apostles left off?​

The answer to this question is plainly "no," as we have already begun to see from Scripture. The mission and the message can only be passed on by someone who first possessed it. That is, the mission does not merely entail preaching the message, but with it comes the authority to spiritually "reproduce" and pass on the necessary authority to the next generation. Let us recap and see how this is so:​

God is the source of this mission and authority​

He passes it to Jesus ("the Father has sent me... all authority has been given to me")​

Jesus passes it on - along with "all authority" to act "in my name" - to the Apostles ("as the Father has sent me, [i.e., in the same way and with the same authority] so I send you," "go and make disciples")​

The Apostles pass the mission and authority on to men like St. Timothy and St. Titus ("with all authority" Tit 2:15)​

The second apostolic generation is expected to entrust the mission to the next generation, ad infinitum​

It is this last point that we must now unpack and develop a bit further. The first generation of Apostles takes care to not only pass along the message, but also creates new pastors with apostolic authority to continue transmitting the message:​

"And when they [Ss. Paul and Barnabus] had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed." (Acts 14:23)​

(Tit. 1:5)​

(2 Tim. 2:2)
Note once again the appearance of the word "entrust" in this last passage. St. Paul expects that St. Timothy will "guard what has been entrusted" to him, and then later "entrust" that same mission and authority "to faithful men."​

Although many Protestant pastors apply St. Paul's words, "rightly divide the word of truth," to themselves, in fact, these words were written to St. Timothy specifically, not to the congregation in general. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 shows the relationship between the legitimate ambassador and Scripture:​

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)​

There is the relationship: the Scriptures are a tool for "teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," but who is to use this tool for these purposes? That is, who has the authority to teach, reproof, correct, and train others in righteousness? The "man of God" has this authority.​

But, who is the "man of God?" You may wish to claim this title for yourself as well, but a short survey of Scripture's use of the title will reveal that this, too, is a privileged title that cannot be simply taken upon oneself:​

more here: By What Authority?

Actually I understand some of your claims which are in fact what you have been taught through Catholicism but it is errant. Catholicism is just another carnal religion like the rest. The pope is not nor has he ever been inerrant, nor does the pope have any spiritual authority over me and yet I remain part of the body of Christ. Look at the history of the RC church, they have proven time and time again that it is a carnal man- made religious group.

As far as who has the authority to teach using the scriptures, the answer is very simple, those who are spiritually mature.

As far as titles go, I have no need for them myself nor the need of anyone who uses them.

Religion is an ugly tyrant, get out before it is too late.