"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed

[quietthinker]

I have found myself replying to a post 10 years old. I just didn't look at the details ie, posting date......until my attention was drawn to it.

I think we read scripture all too often in a similar vein. We loose sight of context, our pride is offended that the meticulous structure we have built and reinforced over years crumbles so easily and our heads go into the sand.......oblivious to the fact our backsides are being advertised for all to see.

 

[quietthinker]

Did the edit help?

/

yes sir!

 

[marks]

My topics have a long shelf life.



/

More to the point, you keep pushing your threads, quite vigorously. It's not kosher. But you have your ax to grind, and grind it you will.

Much love, and hope you come to something better!

 

[amigo de christo]

More to the point, you keep pushing your threads, quite vigorously. It's not kosher. But you have your ax to grind, and grind it you will.

Much love, and hope you come to something better!

Point to Christ Jesus and all biblical sound doctrine to the last and final breath . TO THE LORD be all glory , no matter the cost .

 

[MatthewG]

But there is also a problem with "knowing" the bible.

For me, the Bible is referencial, and the spirit is primary. There is a good notion that if one is going to try to get to know their bible, they would consider all that is within the contents of context. With the New testament for example; there is a lot of historical events happening in that day in age when Jesus arrived on the scene. Especially when reading the book of Acts, from chapter 10 forward with Paul going out to spread the gospel to the Gentile nations. To ask the greater questions, who, why, when, where, how? And just taking notes as you go along; those who are of “Faith and seek out God diligently” will be rewarded. Rewarded how? Spiritually, and that brings wisdom, and knowledge and some stable clarity when going through it.

Many people say that Bible is written to “us”, however in hindsight, the truth is, that the old testament was a testimony of God and the nation of Israel along with added poetry; and of course the major and minir prophets which spoke of Jesus whom showed up, after the last book of that testimony, Malachi. 400 years of silence from God; and the people who taught the “scriptures” learned those books well… with study in order to know; but the difference between knowing something and understanding is two entirely different meanings.

The bible was never written to “us” that is an misunderstanding. However the Bible has been collected and distributed out “for” us to be able to see how God created mankind, the fall, and how God was able to reconcile the world back to himself through christ. Which is all taken in “faith” that the very first three verses in Genesis written by Moses is even true.
Thank yoh for writing.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

For me, the Bible is referencial, and the spirit is primary. There is a good notion that if one is going to try to get to know their bible, they would consider all that is within the contents of context. With the New testament for example; there is a lot of historical events happening in that day in age when Jesus arrived on the scene. Especially when reading the book of Acts, from chapter 10 forward with Paul going out to spread the gospel to the Gentile nations. To ask the greater questions, who, why, when, where, how? And just taking notes as you go along; those who are of “Faith and seek out God diligently” will be rewarded. Rewarded how? Spiritually, and that brings wisdom, and knowledge and some stable clarity when going through it.

Many people say that Bible is written to “us”, however in hindsight, the truth is, that the old testament was a testimony of God and the nation of Israel along with added poetry; and of course the major and minir prophets which spoke of Jesus whom showed up, after the last book of that testimony, Malachi. 400 years of silence from God; and the people who taught the “scriptures” learned those books well… with study in order to know; but the difference between knowing something and understanding is two entirely different meanings.

The bible was never written to “us” that is an misunderstanding. However the Bible has been collected and distributed out “for” us to be able to see how God created mankind, the fall, and how God was able to reconcile the world back to himself through christ. Which is all taken in “faith” that the very first three verses in Genesis written by Moses is even true.
Thank yoh for writing.

I have always... ALWAYS... referred to the bible as "our" handbook and guide.

But it takes a certain amount of... and I am not suggesting a small amount... of discernment as we study to show ourselves approved to know and be so convinced that our know.... knows.... that what be believe is right.
And if we are in doubt.... If we are not willing to defend our core beliefs... and if we are not willing to possibly admit once in a while that thoughts and opinions can, will and do change then we should just put forums like these strictly on a read only basis.

I responded with "But there is also a problem with "knowing" the bible." I stand by that because of the disagreements that show up from reading a simple verse and people understanding differently what a sentence meant....

Our brother Gabriel_Arch said/wrote...."

"Reading scripture differently from one another I think is also of God."

Which so perfectly states what I have felt for longer then I can remember I actually asked hos permission, and was granted, to use this... with credit to him... in my forums signature panels. (Need to get around to that... hopefully today)

The four corners of the Holy Bible are the word of God. there is just enough evasiveness from the scribes there
to create aa quandry and that, perhaps, is because the scribes wrote what the either were divinely inspired to write or by their own understanding that what they wrote was written with clarity.

For certain, over the centuries there have been multiple re-translations and rewordings of those texts all aimed at providing clarity... ( Even within the Catholic bibles)

But just look at the debates that have ensued from from a single 5 letter word ..... UNTIL.

Yes indeed...

His ""Reading scripture differently from one another I think is also of God.", is more then a statement of truth, truly stated.... it IS fact... IMHO

 

[Hobie]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe
Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about.
Brainwashing, obviously.

Not to say that there isn't a need for religious training, but...
this approach leaves MUCH to be desired.

Saw this video of John MacArthur lamenting the sorry state of Evangelicalism in 2022. (video below)
Ligonier ministries had done a survey of Evangelicals. The findings, per MacArthur, were "shocking".

65% of Evangelicals agreed that everyone is born innocent.
55% agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
56% agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
43% agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.

"Evangelicals have absolutely no idea what they believe." - John MacArthur
Really? It seems as if the survey results TOLD you EXACTLY what they believe.
How can you claim that they "have absolutely no idea what they believe"?
If we reverse the percentages, what do we get? (hope my math is correct) - LOL

35% of Evangelicals DIS-agreed that everyone is born innocent.
45% DIS-agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
44% DIS-agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
67% DIS-agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.

So here's the BIG question...
Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?

That's the issue, if Chritians read their Bible they would know, but they rather someone 'tell them'...

 

[Spyder]

Near and dear to me is the topic of "knowing why you believe the things you do."

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that challenging a fellow believer to defend his or her belief scripturally was not acceptable behavior in a church. It was unacceptable not only to the church staff but to the believers as well.

They had gotten comfortable with their teachings over the years and wanted to simply plug along clinging to the doctrines without investigation - hardly a Berean in the bunch. The end result was that it was decided I didn't fit into the congregation, because the scriptures are not as important as the Statement of Faith.

While I inclined myself to be offended, I realized that I was facing nothing even similar to what the Apostles faced. Not only that, but Yahweh has blessed my life afterwards with peace and contentment. If any here believe that they hold "all truth," I can do nothing about what that person chooses to believe. I am STILL working on truth for myself and don't expect to ever reach that point. But, I know it is easy to just buy into whatever the crowd believes. It is our normal reaction - whether we realize it or not. I think the judgements we face regarding our unscriptural words and deeds will be made known on the last day.

 

[St. SteVen]

Great post, thanks!

Near and dear to me is the topic of "knowing why you believe the things you do."

I am struck by the irony that we need to be TOLD what we believe. Say what?

Does a new believer need to be instructed in the ways of church and faith? Yes, of course.
Should they be TOLD what they believe? No. This is what they need to discover.
But the church doesn't trust believers to do this on their own. And perhaps for good reasons.
I won't abide it personally.

/

 

[dev553344]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe
Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about.
Brainwashing, obviously.

Not to say that there isn't a need for religious training, but...
this approach leaves MUCH to be desired.

Saw this video of John MacArthur lamenting the sorry state of Evangelicalism in 2022. (video below)
Ligonier ministries had done a survey of Evangelicals. The findings, per MacArthur, were "shocking".

65% of Evangelicals agreed that everyone is born innocent.
55% agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
56% agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
43% agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.

"Evangelicals have absolutely no idea what they believe." - John MacArthur
Really? It seems as if the survey results TOLD you EXACTLY what they believe.
How can you claim that they "have absolutely no idea what they believe"?
If we reverse the percentages, what do we get? (hope my math is correct) - LOL

35% of Evangelicals DIS-agreed that everyone is born innocent.
45% DIS-agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
44% DIS-agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
67% DIS-agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.

So here's the BIG question...
Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?

Church is crucial for the early Christian to be taught correct principles and doctrine. Advanced Christians learn to follow the Holy Spirit and learn from God. But that is not the typical Christian. So yes churches are important.

 

[St. SteVen]

Church is crucial for the early Christian to be taught correct principles and doctrine. Advanced Christians learn to follow the Holy Spirit and learn from God. But that is not the typical Christian. So yes churches are important.

I'm not questioning the importance of church. I still belong. And I attend weekly, or more.
Here is what I do question...

Do we need the church to TELL us what we believe? Seems absurd.
Yet most Christians balk at my questions. Are we that far gone?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

/

 

[dev553344]

I'm not questioning the importance of church. I still belong. And I attend weekly, or more.
Here is what I do question...

Do we need the church to TELL us what we believe? Seems absurd.
Yet most Christians balk at my questions. Are we that far gone?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

/

I suppose some churches teach that you know nothing and that the leaders will instruct the people. When the people aren't part of that process then it becomes cult like.

 

[JohnDB]

Above all else the heart is the most deceitful.

We might mistake our hearts desires for the Holy Spirit....it's happened way too often to be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines.

So....
My wife and I are working on a curriculum project of how to go about the process of hermeneutics. We are not going to teach any doctrines whatsoever. (Well maybe a few because it's impossible not to with scriptures and adequately explain the proper process)

We just started this past week with the introduction of background as to why it's necessary. And how flat reading is not really a great idea. (Many on this site would heavily disagree because of the destruction of their beliefs)

 

[St. SteVen]

Above all else the heart is the most deceitful.

We might mistake our hearts desires for the Holy Spirit....it's happened way too often to be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines.

There it is.
As if believers can't be trusted to discover what they believe on their own GUIDED by the Holy Spirit.
Trust your human leaders INSTEAD. Wow. Seriously?

/

 

[JohnDB]

There it is.
As if believers can't be trusted to discover what they believe on their own GUIDED by the Holy Spirit.
Trust your human leaders INSTEAD. Wow. Seriously?

/

Not even close to what I said or insinuated. You have made a completely false accusation. That's stemming from anything but the Holy Spirit! You need to apologize immediately!

The scriptures are what we base our faith upon. Not that we worship the Bible as some have suggested. But the scriptures provide a framework from which we grow our faith and understanding of God. Jesus is the "word became flesh". Meaning that Jesus is the living embodiment of the Old Testament scriptures.
I worship God and not my own understanding. I do not want people to carry faith in me or my understanding whatsoever. Even though I make my efforts to understand the scriptures very thorough...I can be wrong. I do not want to have my sins perpetuated and propagated. The Bible is inerrant. I am not.

What we are going to teach is how to gain the information necessary to read their own bibles....basic stuff like reading the instructions every study Bible translation has in the front. What the notations mean. The translators explain in detail how they went about creating the translation they have made.
Paying careful attention to what actually is written. How not to read in our own ideas of what was written.

God has spent the blood of His favorite people to ensure we have the accurate scriptures we have today.

We will explain what a few of the symbolisms mean and how to find out. Because today if someone is compared to a wild donkey it might be considered to be a derogatory statement...but 5900 years ago it actually was a compliment. How cultural norms (anthropology) are discovered. Looking at what was considered "common knowledge" that was often left out of scriptures 5000-6000 years ago.

I know what I believe and why I am confident of it and can point to scriptures to back up my beliefs. Your method seems to be based upon "because my holy spirits says so".
And that really doesn't fly with anyone exercising prudence for wanting to obtain eternal life. (Eternity is a very long time to suffer consequences)

 

[St. SteVen]

Not even close to what I said or insinuated. You have made a completely false accusation. That's stemming from anything but the Holy Spirit! You need to apologize immediately!

Here's what you said:

Above all else the heart is the most deceitful.

We might mistake our hearts desires for the Holy Spirit....it's happened way too often to be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines.

We should NOT "be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines"? Explain. Thanks.

/

 

[JohnDB]

Here's what you said:

We should NOT "be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines"? Explain. Thanks.

/

Well, if you knew scripture you would know that I quoted it almost perfectly.

And by leaning solely upon what we think is the Holy Spirit is way too often just our sinful desires telling us that we are "good people" when the opposite is true. Everyone is "right" only in their own mind. The real truth is something vastly different. Even Satan believes he is right and good...but he is still Satan now isn't he?
More crimes against humanity have been perpetrated in God's name than any other set of ideals. How do you supposed that happened or is happening today?
Maybe someone somewhere used what they thought was "good" instead of using scriptures and got others to follow what they believed the "holy spirit" told them was right to do.
Which is why the Church of England was very revolutionary when King James ordered that the Bible be chained up publicly so that people could learn to read and know what God had really said instead of taking a priest's word for it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, if you knew scripture you would know that I quoted it almost perfectly.

Are you planning to apologize for that mischaracterization?
Chapter and verse, please.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

We might mistake our hearts desires for the Holy Spirit....it's happened way too often to be leaning on the Holy Spirit solely for doctrines.

Where is this quote above quoted "almost perfectly" in scripture?

Well, if you knew scripture you would know that I quoted it almost perfectly.

Chapter and verse, please. Thanks.

/

 

[lforrest]

A church should be bible based. That said you. can lead a man to the the word, but you can't make him listen.