You did indeed "give scripture reference" however you applied them to something that does not exist. Why?
Spoken Word and Written Word are the Same
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You did indeed "give scripture reference" however you applied them to something that does not exist. Why?
Actually if one reads the scriptures correctly , revelation is what Jesus is basing His church on, but few listen to God so they get no revelation. The arguement abot Jesus left one church and it is our church, is foolishness even the JW's make that same claim, as do all the others. They will use different scriptures to back them up but it is al lfoolishness.
It really doesnt matter, God and Jesus love you anyay, Jesus died for al our Sins once and for all, nothing wil ever change that, you will still be saved, but you will miss out on all the wonderfull things God has promised those who are His,
Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
The original OP was about the written adn spoken word being in agreemen, well this thread is tesiment that it is not. If it was we would all be in agrrement.
In Hia Love
It really doesnt matter, God and Jesus love you anyay, Jesus died for al our Sins once and for all, nothing wil ever change that, you will still be saved, but you will miss out on all the wonderfull things God has promised those who are His,
Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
The original OP was about the written adn spoken word being in agreemen, well this thread is tesiment that it is not. If it was we would all be in agrrement.
In Hia Love
OK, let's go through them:
You request is not rational. It doesn’t have to use a particular word.
Show me where scripture uses the word “Trinity”.
Catholic means universal. Jesus instructed the apostles to make disciples of all the nations:
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you (Mt 28:18-20)
Jesus wanted a universal (catholic) Church
Yes, the “Church spoken of in scripture is ONE Church, ONE body. Multiples denominations are neither.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you (Mt 28:18-20)
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone
Where did I say "God here...I have founded and preserved the Catholic Church just for you." ?
What I see in post #74 is that you answered questions with questions.
Moving ever so gingerly back to the OP.
I have already shown here that the Apostles wrote down what they spoke orally. If you look at the preponderance of evidence in all 66 books of the Bible, God instructed men to write down what He considered important enough not to pass down orally without writing it down.
Look at the emphasis that Paul puts on reading his epistles. I have obviously not listed ALL the scriptures both in the OT and the NT that place such a strong emphasis on reading the Scriptures. Jesus Himself was always saying, "Have ye not read where it sayeth in the Scriptures?" Where did Jesus and the Apostles continually say, "remember what Isaiah told Jeremiah, who told Ezekiel, who told Daniel, who told Malachi that God said.....?" No! It is absolutely a ridiculous concept and God doesn't play the "Telephone Game". No matter how sincere and trusting you are, the words get changed when you play the Telephone Game and when the words get changed, the meaning is changed and will never agree with anything else that WAS WRITTEN DOWN.
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1Th_5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
I John 2:20-21 - The apostle assures Christians that they have from the apostles all the truth (what they "heard from the beginning" vs. 24). He then says: "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth."
- The "truth heard from the beginning" relates to the oral teaching of the apostle.
- What John now writes has 3 basic purposes:
Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:And to give a permanent record of the truth.
- To confirm truths already taught.
- To warn about the "lies" of the Antichrist.
- And to give a permanent record of the truth.
The Written Word was Confirmed by Apostolic Signature and Internal Evidence (reference)
The churches of New Testament times recognized the apostolic origin of the books they received..
We place emphasis on the Scriptures because Jesus Christ and the Apostles emphasized the Scriptures.
There is no precedent in the OT that the God of the NT (who is the same God of the OT) does not direct His revelation to be written down and thus to pass it on in written form.
As you can see in this next verse there is no "tradition" of handing anything down "orally". (Many more scriptures)
Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
The emphasis is on reading the scriptures and keeping that which is written down.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Hab_2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
Mat_24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
There is no such thing as extra-biblical revelation that is on the same level of authority as the Scriptures!!
There are also no Apostles today on the same level of Authority as the Apostles that God inspired to write down His words. (reference)
In order to change God's word by introducing NEW WORDS, there must of necessity be a redefining of what a modern day Apostle is. That redefinition, is that an Apostle today has the same authority as the original men that wrote the New Testament to write NEW revelation from God.
And of course I don't need to really say this but will just in case anyone thinks we are engaging in Bibliolatry. The Letter by itself without the Spirit kills. Only the Spirit of God can give the "Letter", (Scriptures) life!
There is no life in extra-biblical revelation that is on the same level of authority as the God's Holy Scriptures.
Axehead
Excellent presentation Axehead, thank you.
Thank you, Whitestone. Nice to see you again.
Did you see this one yet. Was Peter Ever in Rome?
Axehead
I don't see how your question is relevant to the OP.
However whether Catholics get to heaven depends on the state of their souls when they die - as with everyone else.
Moving ever so gingerly back to the OP.
I have already shown here that the Apostles wrote down what they spoke orally. If you look at the preponderance of evidence in all 66 books of the Bible, God instructed men to write down what He considered important enough not to pass down orally without writing it down.
You haven’t shown that at all.
Your proposition relies on highly exaggerated claims for what scripture actually states, and contradicts many scriptures that clearly state that not everything was written in scripture.
Yes, the Thessalonicans received the word of God as spoken by Paul. What evidence is there that they EVER had anything in writing except the two epistles sent to them by Paul? Neither of these give much information regarding salvation
Paul writes to the Thessalonians in a later letter:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess 2:15).
Note the or which would be unnecessary if oral and written word were the same.
Moreover Paul teaches Timothy to pass on the word orally:
He says to Timothy “Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus”. (2Tim 1:13)
Paul has given Timothy sound teaching. He heard this from Paul, not recived it in writing.
He continues
“guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” (2Tim 1:14)
Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others. He continues a little later
“You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also..” (2Tim 2:1-2)
Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn. Then they will be able to teach others as well.
So we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.
Note this is all oral teaching. There is no suggestion that Timothy just passes on documents to others and tells them to work it out for themselves.
Mungo,
God would have already set the precedent of His word being passed down orally without any writing of it before the NT was written. The exact opposite is the case. Can you show me where this precedent exists because the Jewish people were so meticulous in writing down God's word that to stop doing it would be a radical change for them. Can you show me where this precedent took place?
Also, why does the Catholic church write down oral tradition instead of continuing to pass it down orally? Can you give me an example of ANY oral tradition that the Catholic Church is passing on, orally (and not writing it down)?
Please show me your evidence that Peter was in Rome (let alone 25 years in Rome).
Thank you,
Axehead
God would have already set the precedent of His word being passed down orally without any writing of it before the NT was written. The exact opposite is the case. Can you show me where this precedent exists because the Jewish people were so meticulous in writing down God's word that to stop doing it would be a radical change for them. Can you show me where this precedent took place?
Also, why does the Catholic church write down oral tradition instead of continuing to pass it down orally? Can you give me an example of ANY oral tradition that the Catholic Church is passing on, orally (and not writing it down)?
Please show me your evidence that Peter was in Rome (let alone 25 years in Rome).
Thank you,
Axehead
Many assertions there and not one shred of evidence to back them up.
I gave you evidence from scripture that Paul taught orally and instructed his teaching to be guarded and passed on orally.
You have not answered any of the points I made.
What is the relevance of that question to the OP?
Of colurse such oral teaching gets written down gradually in the writings of the early fathers, the various creeds, in liturgies and ancient prayers, catechetical writings, and decisions of Ecumenical Councils.
That is why such writings things are important. But they are not scripture and your OP contends, as I understand it, that ALL teaching passed on by the apostles is in scripture.
I can't see the relevance of this to the OP. Are you setting up a diversion?
It's simply fascinating to watch people rail against the written word of God.
Then out of the other side of their mouth preach about a church
Then out of the other side of their mouth preach about a church
Hi all,
I'm catching up on this thread...
From p3, mjrhealth said,
One cannot debate the truth, honestly, without succumbing to it.
2 Thessalonians 2: '... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God towards salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed [it] to them.
In other words, neophyte, people who know the truth but chose not to believe it, or who systematically sideline it to continue having 'pleasure in unrighteousness', run the risk of God Himself adding strength to their delusion (to their self-deception). As Paul observed to Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Whether one is deceived through being dishonest with God's revelation (hypocrisy), through overt or hidden idolatry, through an unrepentant heart or choosing evil, truth will catch up eventually, and will conquer.
You said,
It doesn't.
And yet your truth doesn't even agree with the inerrant word of God. You would rather believe hearsay, and elevate it above the written record of God's logos and rhema. (Rather you than me when you face Him alone.)
You have, regularly, poured scorn on those who use scripture properly, apparently not fearing for your own soul. God whose Son Jesus Christ is 'the Truth', John 14:6 - the Word Incarnate, John 1:14 - is listening **.
Malachi 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, says the LORD.
Yet ye say, What have we spoken [so much] against thee?
14 Ye have said, It [is] vain to serve God: and what profit [is it] that we have kept his ordinance,
and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up;
yea, [they that] tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened **, and heard **, and a book of remembrance was written
before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spares his own son that serves him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked,
between him that serves God and him that serves him not.
..
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 12:34, Luke 6:45.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
So, neophyte, with reference to fruit of the lips (abundance of the heart), when you write scathing comments about non-Catholics who believe the written word of God is reliable and authoritative, Heb 4:12, Jer 17:10, while at other times calling on the written word of God to support your own arguments, do you really think you come over like a brother in Christ who is on God's side, whose
You don't sound as if you are representing the God of all creation who Himself exhorted us to abide in Himself, the true Vine, John 15:3, 4 so that we may bear fruit which proves us to be children of the Most High God,
Matt 5:44, 45. It's more likely that you're a double-minded man: James 1:5, 6, 7, 8. But, you could change! You, too, could become a member of the Malachi 3:16 fraternity.
Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that uses milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age - those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I don't know if you have been able to get my meaning through the verses above, so let me recap.
1) The Truth (Jesus Christ) is non-negotiable (That was mjrhealth's point in the first quote.)
2) God does not brook any rejection of truth by men. He destroys those who reject His truth.
3) People who deliberately deceive, open themselves spiritually to become deceived by others.
4) You try to argue from both sides: the word of God is authoritatively true, and, the word of God is laughable.
5) That ambiguity/duplicity robs your arguments of all credibility, because spiritual authority does exist in God.
6) God sees and hears this fruit of your lips (what you think, what you say, and what you write.)
7) While only God can search the heart, your hearers on earth get to judge the fruit of your lips.
8) God has a book in which is written a record of conversations between those who reverence Him with awe.
9) Jeremiah 17:9, 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, [the heart's intended direction]
even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
10) You are exhorted to become skilled at discerning good and evil, by becoming expert in the word of God.
(It is assumed you would become expert on His terms, not yours, in light of 1 Corinthians 20, 21, 25, 26, 27.)
Feel free to continue to develop an expert knowledge of the extra-biblical teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, but don't make the mistake of elevating those teachings either to equality with, or superiority to, God's established word through His eyewitnesses. One day, Jesus Christ Himself will judge Roman Catholic extra-biblical teaching, with finality.
Romans 2:16, Acts 17:30 , 31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he has ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance to all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead.
If you believe the apostles were witnesses to Jesus Christ's words and acts, then believe them with all your heart.
Luke 1:2, 2 Peter 1:16, Luke 24:13, 15, 16, 28, 1 Cor 15:5, John 18:37, Acts 3:15, Acts 1:8
God bless you.
I'm catching up on this thread...
From p3, mjrhealth said,
One cannot debate the truth, honestly, without succumbing to it.
2 Thessalonians 2: '... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God towards salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed [it] to them.
In other words, neophyte, people who know the truth but chose not to believe it, or who systematically sideline it to continue having 'pleasure in unrighteousness', run the risk of God Himself adding strength to their delusion (to their self-deception). As Paul observed to Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Whether one is deceived through being dishonest with God's revelation (hypocrisy), through overt or hidden idolatry, through an unrepentant heart or choosing evil, truth will catch up eventually, and will conquer.
You said,
It doesn't.
And yet your truth doesn't even agree with the inerrant word of God. You would rather believe hearsay, and elevate it above the written record of God's logos and rhema. (Rather you than me when you face Him alone.)
You have, regularly, poured scorn on those who use scripture properly, apparently not fearing for your own soul. God whose Son Jesus Christ is 'the Truth', John 14:6 - the Word Incarnate, John 1:14 - is listening **.
Malachi 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, says the LORD.
Yet ye say, What have we spoken [so much] against thee?
14 Ye have said, It [is] vain to serve God: and what profit [is it] that we have kept his ordinance,
and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up;
yea, [they that] tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened **, and heard **, and a book of remembrance was written
before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spares his own son that serves him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked,
between him that serves God and him that serves him not.
..
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 12:34, Luke 6:45.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things to God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.So, neophyte, with reference to fruit of the lips (abundance of the heart), when you write scathing comments about non-Catholics who believe the written word of God is reliable and authoritative, Heb 4:12, Jer 17:10, while at other times calling on the written word of God to support your own arguments, do you really think you come over like a brother in Christ who is on God's side, whose
You don't sound as if you are representing the God of all creation who Himself exhorted us to abide in Himself, the true Vine, John 15:3, 4 so that we may bear fruit which proves us to be children of the Most High God,
Matt 5:44, 45. It's more likely that you're a double-minded man: James 1:5, 6, 7, 8. But, you could change! You, too, could become a member of the Malachi 3:16 fraternity.
Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that uses milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age - those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I don't know if you have been able to get my meaning through the verses above, so let me recap.
1) The Truth (Jesus Christ) is non-negotiable (That was mjrhealth's point in the first quote.)
2) God does not brook any rejection of truth by men. He destroys those who reject His truth.
3) People who deliberately deceive, open themselves spiritually to become deceived by others.
4) You try to argue from both sides: the word of God is authoritatively true, and, the word of God is laughable.
5) That ambiguity/duplicity robs your arguments of all credibility, because spiritual authority does exist in God.
6) God sees and hears this fruit of your lips (what you think, what you say, and what you write.)
7) While only God can search the heart, your hearers on earth get to judge the fruit of your lips.
8) God has a book in which is written a record of conversations between those who reverence Him with awe.
9) Jeremiah 17:9, 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, [the heart's intended direction]
even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
10) You are exhorted to become skilled at discerning good and evil, by becoming expert in the word of God.
(It is assumed you would become expert on His terms, not yours, in light of 1 Corinthians 20, 21, 25, 26, 27.)
Feel free to continue to develop an expert knowledge of the extra-biblical teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, but don't make the mistake of elevating those teachings either to equality with, or superiority to, God's established word through His eyewitnesses. One day, Jesus Christ Himself will judge Roman Catholic extra-biblical teaching, with finality.
Romans 2:16, Acts 17:30 , 31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he has ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance to all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead.
If you believe the apostles were witnesses to Jesus Christ's words and acts, then believe them with all your heart.
Luke 1:2, 2 Peter 1:16, Luke 24:13, 15, 16, 28, 1 Cor 15:5, John 18:37, Acts 3:15, Acts 1:8
God bless you.
It is perilously possible to make our conceptions of God like molten lead poured into a specially designed mould, and when it is cold and hard we fling it at the heads of the religious people who don’t agree with us. ~ Oswald Chambers ~ Disciples Indeed
dragonfly, you wrote the following with my answer following
1) The Truth (Jesus Christ) is non-negotiable (That was mjrhealth's point in the first quote.)- My answer- Church also teaches this
2) God does not brook any rejection of truth by men. He destroys those who reject His truth-.My answer- True
3) People who deliberately deceive, open themselves spiritually to become deceived by others-.My answer- Church agrees with you
4) You try to argue from both sides: the word of God is authoritatively true, and, the word of God is laughable- My answer- God has all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus gave His Apostolic Church His temporary authority to His Apostles until He returns to us. .
5) That ambiguity/duplicity robs your arguments of all credibility, because spiritual authority does exist in God.-My answer True [ see #4 ]
6) God sees and hears this fruit of your lips (what you think, what you say, and what you write.)- My answer- Agreed
7) While only God can search the heart, your hearers on earth get to judge the fruit of your lips.-My answer-Not mine but the Church that Jesus left all of us , sadly many reject Christ's Church.
8) God has a book in which is written a record of conversations between those who reverence Him with awe.- My answer - Christ's Church on earth agrees with you.
9) Jeremiah 17:9, 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, [the heart's intended direction]
even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. -My answer -Church agrees
10) You are exhorted to become skilled at discerning good and evil, by becoming expert in the word of God.- My answer- True, The Church is the only Authority on earth that Jesus gave all His Authority to.
1) The Truth (Jesus Christ) is non-negotiable (That was mjrhealth's point in the first quote.)- My answer- Church also teaches this
2) God does not brook any rejection of truth by men. He destroys those who reject His truth-.My answer- True
3) People who deliberately deceive, open themselves spiritually to become deceived by others-.My answer- Church agrees with you
4) You try to argue from both sides: the word of God is authoritatively true, and, the word of God is laughable- My answer- God has all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus gave His Apostolic Church His temporary authority to His Apostles until He returns to us. .
5) That ambiguity/duplicity robs your arguments of all credibility, because spiritual authority does exist in God.-My answer True [ see #4 ]
6) God sees and hears this fruit of your lips (what you think, what you say, and what you write.)- My answer- Agreed
7) While only God can search the heart, your hearers on earth get to judge the fruit of your lips.-My answer-Not mine but the Church that Jesus left all of us , sadly many reject Christ's Church.
8) God has a book in which is written a record of conversations between those who reverence Him with awe.- My answer - Christ's Church on earth agrees with you.
9) Jeremiah 17:9, 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, [the heart's intended direction]
even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. -My answer -Church agrees
10) You are exhorted to become skilled at discerning good and evil, by becoming expert in the word of God.- My answer- True, The Church is the only Authority on earth that Jesus gave all His Authority to.
All this is true of the One True Church, except the last sentence. Neither catholicism or any other man-made denomination shows forth any of what you've put together, only the One True Church, the Bride of Christ does. And IT'S members walk amongst all the "denominations" seeking out the lost sheep that are being starved to death by the doctrines of the catholics and protestants. It is the creeds and doctrines of the catholics and protestants that destroy men's souls. We who are of the One True Church do not have a worldly denominational axe to grind, nor do we use creeds and doctrines, but are only led by the Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit of Christ in us. And THAT isn't something that ANY denomination/creed/doctrine can do.
The "One Church" is comprised of individual believers throughout the world. Some of them may have been brought up in a catholic or protestant background, but if they are of Christ, they will certainly move on toward the high calling as ministers of the Gospel and will not find intelligent meaning behind being called "catholic" or "coc" or "sda" or "jw" etc, but will leave these immature idols behind and become a mature man of God.
Oh, and PS. Peter's CONFESSION is the Rock of which we ALL build the Church upon. THAT was first from Jesus, then upon His Twelve, and now upon each of us who believe. The Church is built upon all who confess Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
Not just upon Peter who confessed Christ the Son of the Living God.
Peace
Jesus didn't "leave us a church" lol. He came and "Began" the Church within those who confess Jesus. Jesus IS the Church. He is the head, we are the body by believing and being filled with His Holy Spirit, just like our own personal body is filled and guided by the spirit of our being from our brain in our head. That is exactly how the Church exists forever. That is "Church 101".
We, who ARE the Body of Christ, ARE the Church. It is called the Heavenly Mountain, Mt Zion, the New Jerusalem City of the Living God, the Mother of us all. We who tell others about her ARE the "Light of the World". This is the truth. This is the Light. Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.
Nothing to do but give thanks and Glory
Hi all,
I'm catching up on this thread...
From p3, mjrhealth said,
One cannot debate the truth, honestly, without succumbing to it.
2 Thessalonians 2: '... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God towards salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed [it] to them.
In other words, neophyte, people who know the truth but chose not to believe it, or who systematically sideline it to continue having 'pleasure in unrighteousness', run the risk of God Himself adding strength to their delusion (to their self-deception). As Paul observed to Timothy:
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Whether one is deceived through being dishonest with God's revelation (hypocrisy), through overt or hidden idolatry, through an unrepentant heart or choosing evil, truth will catch up eventually, and will conquer.
You said,
It doesn't.
And yet your truth doesn't even agree with the inerrant word of God. You would rather believe hearsay, and elevate it above the written record of God's logos and rhema. (Rather you than me when you face Him alone.)
You have, regularly, poured scorn on those who use scripture properly, apparently not fearing for your own soul. God whose Son Jesus Christ is 'the Truth', John 14:6 - the Word Incarnate, John 1:14 - is listening **.
Malachi 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, says the LORD.
Yet ye say, What have we spoken [so much] against thee?
14 Ye have said, It [is] vain to serve God: and what profit [is it] that we have kept his ordinance,
and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up;
yea, [they that] tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened **, and heard **, and a book of remembrance was written
before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels;
and I will spare them, as a man spares his own son that serves him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked,
between him that serves God and him that serves him not.
..
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 12:34, Luke 6:45.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;20 Giving thanks always for all things to God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, neophyte, with reference to fruit of the lips (abundance of the heart), when you write scathing comments about non-Catholics who believe the written word of God is reliable and authoritative, Heb 4:12, Jer 17:10, while at other times calling on the written word of God to support your own arguments, do you really think you come over like a brother in Christ who is on God's side, whose
You don't sound as if you are representing the God of all creation who Himself exhorted us to abide in Himself, the true Vine, John 15:3, 4 so that we may bear fruit which proves us to be children of the Most High God,
Matt 5:44, 45. It's more likely that you're a double-minded man: James 1:5, 6, 7, 8. But, you could change! You, too, could become a member of the Malachi 3:16 fraternity.
Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he [Jesus Christ] became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that uses milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age - those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I don't know if you have been able to get my meaning through the verses above, so let me recap.
1) The Truth (Jesus Christ) is non-negotiable (That was mjrhealth's point in the first quote.)
2) God does not brook any rejection of truth by men. He destroys those who reject His truth.
3) People who deliberately deceive, open themselves spiritually to become deceived by others.
4) You try to argue from both sides: the word of God is authoritatively true, and, the word of God is laughable.
5) That ambiguity/duplicity robs your arguments of all credibility, because spiritual authority does exist in God.
6) God sees and hears this fruit of your lips (what you think, what you say, and what you write.)
7) While only God can search the heart, your hearers on earth get to judge the fruit of your lips.
8) God has a book in which is written a record of conversations between those who reverence Him with awe.
9) Jeremiah 17:9, 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, [the heart's intended direction]
even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
10) You are exhorted to become skilled at discerning good and evil, by becoming expert in the word of God.
(It is assumed you would become expert on His terms, not yours, in light of 1 Corinthians 20, 21, 25, 26, 27.)
Feel free to continue to develop an expert knowledge of the extra-biblical teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, but don't make the mistake of elevating those teachings either to equality with, or superiority to, God's established word through His eyewitnesses. One day, Jesus Christ Himself will judge Roman Catholic extra-biblical teaching, with finality.
Romans 2:16, Acts 17:30 , 31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he has ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance to all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead.
If you believe the apostles were witnesses to Jesus Christ's words and acts, then believe them with all your heart.
Luke 1:2, 2 Peter 1:16, Luke 24:13, 15, 16, 28, 1 Cor 15:5, John 18:37, Acts 3:15, Acts 1:8
God bless you.
Excellent post Dragonfly. It is always as a breath of fresh air when I see your posts and axehead's posts. I so pray that others would open their eyes to the simplicity that is in Christ as you brethen are so aptly able to minister forth with.
Peace in Christ brothers
Thank you good to see you again Axehead.
A number of years ago I dealt with some folk who also thought that Peter had been in Rome, attempting to make it so, so as to give some form of credence to the catholic seat being in Rome. It is easy to show that Peter was busy elsewhere with the Gospel and the true Church, as you have so commendingly shown.
The sect of 'catholicism' was spawned out of the reign of Constantine, who simply suspended persecution against Christians, widening his base of popularity. Naturally, for a pagan, it wasn't important to preserve Christianity, but rather, to make it 'compatible' within the ranks of his reign thereby creating peace in his empire. It worked well for that, but born out of it was a mongrelized monster with certain 'christian' appearences (to unlearned men) the masses joined, and eventually became strong and powerful down through time, known as the 'catholic church'.
It is doubtful to me but of hope that your words can reach to the catholics who have their own peculiar 'authority' as God, a delusion that is near impossible to deliver them out of. Best wishes and God Speed in all your laborings in Christ Jesus our Lord!
You Anti-Catholics keep writing about "Authority" as did whitestone in his post , also you people always mention that the Bible Alone is your'authority".So you say that the Scriptures alone are your authority, but where is that found in Scripture? It's not, so you are teaching a
doctrine that is not found in the Scriptures. Thus, you are going against your own belief that the
Scriptures are our only authority. This contradiction is the downfall to your belief.
But in one last attempt to prove that the Scriptures alone are authoritative, you quote 2 Timothy
3:16,17, which you call the "Crown Jewel of God`s scriptural verses that authenticate the all
inclusive authority of Scripture". These verses say:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly
furnished unto all good works."
You then correctly point out that according to these verses Scripture is:
1. "profitable for doctrine"
2. "profitable for ... reproof"
3. "profitable for ... correction"
4. "profitable for ... instruction in righteousness"
Now, note that the word used in these verses is the word "profitable". This is the Greek word
"ophelimos", which simply means "helpful" or "useful". Why is this important to note? Because
these verses do NOT say that Scripture is:
1. "the only authority for doctrine"
2. "the only authority for ... reproof"
3. "the only authority for ... correction"
4. "the only authority for ... instruction in righteousness"
Nor do they say that Scripture is:
1. "all-sufficient for doctrine"
2. "all-sufficient for ... reproof"
3. "all-sufficient for ... correction"
4. "all-sufficient for ... instruction in righteousness"
What these verses say is that Scripture is simply HELPFUL for these things. The word "helpful"
is MUCH different than the words "only authority" or "all-sufficent". So, once again we see that
the verses that you use to try to prove that Scripture alone is authoritative really do not prove your
affirmation at all. In fact, we see that these verses fall very short of being the "Crown Jewel of
God's scriptural verses that authenticate the all inclusive authority of Scripture".
Finally, to the readers of this forum, I want to ask you to do something. I would like to ask you to
take all of the Scriptures that you anti-Catholics quoted to support your Sola Scriptura affirmation, and read them. And not
only read them, but STUDY them. Feel free to even research all the words in the original Greek
and Hebrew so that you get a clear understanding of what they mean. And when you have done
that, then ask yourself if these verses actually say that Scripture alone is authoritative. What you
will find is that these verses teach that Scripture is inspired, true, reliable, trustworthy, eternal, and
useful. But what you will NOT find is where these verses teach that Scripture ALONE is
authoritative for the Church in matters of doctrine. What you anti-Catholics have affirmed has proven to be a
man-made doctrine that cannot be supported by Biblical evidence.
Answered for me by;
With His Love,
Matt Warner
doctrine that is not found in the Scriptures. Thus, you are going against your own belief that the
Scriptures are our only authority. This contradiction is the downfall to your belief.
But in one last attempt to prove that the Scriptures alone are authoritative, you quote 2 Timothy
3:16,17, which you call the "Crown Jewel of God`s scriptural verses that authenticate the all
inclusive authority of Scripture". These verses say:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly
furnished unto all good works."
You then correctly point out that according to these verses Scripture is:
1. "profitable for doctrine"
2. "profitable for ... reproof"
3. "profitable for ... correction"
4. "profitable for ... instruction in righteousness"
Now, note that the word used in these verses is the word "profitable". This is the Greek word
"ophelimos", which simply means "helpful" or "useful". Why is this important to note? Because
these verses do NOT say that Scripture is:
1. "the only authority for doctrine"
2. "the only authority for ... reproof"
3. "the only authority for ... correction"
4. "the only authority for ... instruction in righteousness"
Nor do they say that Scripture is:
1. "all-sufficient for doctrine"
2. "all-sufficient for ... reproof"
3. "all-sufficient for ... correction"
4. "all-sufficient for ... instruction in righteousness"
What these verses say is that Scripture is simply HELPFUL for these things. The word "helpful"
is MUCH different than the words "only authority" or "all-sufficent". So, once again we see that
the verses that you use to try to prove that Scripture alone is authoritative really do not prove your
affirmation at all. In fact, we see that these verses fall very short of being the "Crown Jewel of
God's scriptural verses that authenticate the all inclusive authority of Scripture".
Finally, to the readers of this forum, I want to ask you to do something. I would like to ask you to
take all of the Scriptures that you anti-Catholics quoted to support your Sola Scriptura affirmation, and read them. And not
only read them, but STUDY them. Feel free to even research all the words in the original Greek
and Hebrew so that you get a clear understanding of what they mean. And when you have done
that, then ask yourself if these verses actually say that Scripture alone is authoritative. What you
will find is that these verses teach that Scripture is inspired, true, reliable, trustworthy, eternal, and
useful. But what you will NOT find is where these verses teach that Scripture ALONE is
authoritative for the Church in matters of doctrine. What you anti-Catholics have affirmed has proven to be a
man-made doctrine that cannot be supported by Biblical evidence.
Answered for me by;
With His Love,
Matt Warner
were not anti-catholic were Pro Christian
Thank you, will you please take me off your calling list.
I'm not interested in a free trip to where ever your headed
Thank you, will you please take me off your calling list.
I'm not interested in a free trip to where ever your headed
I can accept you believe the traditions of your church over the written word
Your the one that can't get it threw your head that most everyone here believes differently
Your the one that can't get it threw your head that most everyone here believes differently
All this is true of the One True Church, except the last sentence. Neither catholicism or any other man-made denomination shows forth any of what you've put together, only the One True Church, the Bride of Christ does. And IT'S members walk amongst all the "denominations" seeking out the lost sheep that are being starved to death by the doctrines of the catholics and protestants. It is the creeds and doctrines of the catholics and protestants that destroy men's souls. We who are of the One True Church do not have a worldly denominational axe to grind, nor do we use creeds and doctrines, but are only led by the Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit of Christ in us. And THAT isn't something that ANY denomination/creed/doctrine can do.
The "One Church" is comprised of individual believers throughout the world. Some of them may have been brought up in a catholic or protestant background, but if they are of Christ, they will certainly move on toward the high calling as ministers of the Gospel and will not find intelligent meaning behind being called "catholic" or "coc" or "sda" or "jw" etc, but will leave these immature idols behind and become a mature man of God.
Oh, and PS. Peter's CONFESSION is the Rock of which we ALL build the Church upon. THAT was first from Jesus, then upon His Twelve, and now upon each of us who believe. The Church is built upon all who confess Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
Not just upon Peter who confessed Christ the Son of the Living God.
Peace
Jesus didn't "leave us a church" lol. He came and "Began" the Church within those who confess Jesus. Jesus IS the Church. He is the head, we are the body by believing and being filled with His Holy Spirit, just like our own personal body is filled and guided by the spirit of our being from our brain in our head. That is exactly how the Church exists forever. That is "Church 101".
We, who ARE the Body of Christ, ARE the Church. It is called the Heavenly Mountain, Mt Zion, the New Jerusalem City of the Living God, the Mother of us all. We who tell others about her ARE the "Light of the World". This is the truth. This is the Light. Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.
Nothing to do but give thanks and Glory
Excellent post Dragonfly. It is always as a breath of fresh air when I see your posts and axehead's posts. I so pray that others would open their eyes to the simplicity that is in Christ as you brethen are so aptly able to minister forth with.
Peace in Christ brothers
Thank you good to see you again Axehead.
A number of years ago I dealt with some folk who also thought that Peter had been in Rome, attempting to make it so, so as to give some form of credence to the catholic seat being in Rome. It is easy to show that Peter was busy elsewhere with the Gospel and the true Church, as you have so commendingly shown.
The sect of 'catholicism' was spawned out of the reign of Constantine, who simply suspended persecution against Christians, widening his base of popularity. Naturally, for a pagan, it wasn't important to preserve Christianity, but rather, to make it 'compatible' within the ranks of his reign thereby creating peace in his empire. It worked well for that, but born out of it was a mongrelized monster with certain 'christian' appearences (to unlearned men) the masses joined, and eventually became strong and powerful down through time, known as the 'catholic church'.
It is doubtful to me but of hope that your words can reach to the catholics who have their own peculiar 'authority' as God, a delusion that is near impossible to deliver them out of. Best wishes and God Speed in all your laborings in Christ Jesus our Lord!
Whitestone and Dragonfly,
Very excellent and inspiring posts. They just made my spirit leap and I began praising the Lord that He is alive and well and still the Authority in His Church. He did not give up His authority to anyone. He is leading and guiding His children by His Spirit. None of us belong to the same group of Believers but we all belong to the Lord and have His Spirit and thus we are all speaking the same thing. What a refreshing thing to meet people from all over the world in a forum and recognize them as fellow sojourners and pilgrims. Children of the Lord.
I hear the voice of the Lord in your posts and they agree with the Word.
John_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John told us how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Neo, I have something to tell you. Your "truth" is built around many things that we do not "recognize". It's not our fault that we don't recognize your truth. All "truth" has a voice behind it and we just don't recognize the voice behind your teachings (RCC teachings). We cannot ignore the voice that we do recognize. I hope you can understand that. I can understand that you don't recognize the voice that we hear and you also cannot ignore the voice that you do hear.
Yes, all "truth" has a voice behind it. You also can state that there are many that "heareth you" and you are comforted by that because you believe it tells you that you are of God and they are of God, too. They agree with you and you agree with them. You both recognize the same voice.
The Jehovah's Witnesses say that, too. Their truth doesn't agree with other "truths" and they have no fellowship with others outside their group.
The Mormons, and many other groups, denominations, pseudo Christian organizations say the same thing and they are just as exclusive and sectarian.
The difference in all of them and your RCC group, is that none of you accept anyone or their understanding of the scriptures if they are different than yours, and especially if they are vastly different. This your RCC group has in common with all Christian cults. There are so many groups that say THEIR GROUP is the ONE TRUE CHURCH. Yours is not the only group that claims this. Those who truly know the Lord does not make this claim for a religious organization. The Church of Jesus Christ transcends all religious organizations.
Here in this forum, we have people from all walks of life. They have been brought up with no religion, and with religion. Some of us like myself are former Catholic, some are of a former Protestant denomination and now they just meet with all who call upon the Lord in truth. Many others are still part of a Protestant denomination and like yourself, are Catholics.
The important thing is that one must be true to the Truth as it is revealed to them and follow that Truth (voice). But if we both really believe that we are of the Truth (Jesus Christ), then we should walk in this:
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Remember what this verse follows, Neo.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
May you and Selene, Kepha, Mungo, Aspen and the other Catholics that frequent CyB and everyone else, be blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus.
Axehead
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