Spoken Word and Written Word are the Same

[Axehead]

What I see in post #74 is that you answered questions with questions.

Moving ever so gingerly back to the OP.

I have already shown here that the Apostles wrote down what they spoke orally. If you look at the preponderance of evidence in all 66 books of the Bible, God instructed men to write down what He considered important enough not to pass down orally without writing it down.

Look at the emphasis that Paul puts on reading his epistles. I have obviously not listed ALL the scriptures both in the OT and the NT that place such a strong emphasis on reading the Scriptures. Jesus Himself was always saying, "Have ye not read where it sayeth in the Scriptures?" Where did Jesus and the Apostles continually say, "remember what Isaiah told Jeremiah, who told Ezekiel, who told Daniel, who told Malachi that God said.....?" No! It is absolutely a ridiculous concept and God doesn't play the "Telephone Game". No matter how sincere and trusting you are, the words get changed when you play the Telephone Game and when the words get changed, the meaning is changed and will never agree with anything else that WAS WRITTEN DOWN.

Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th_5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

I John 2:20-21 - The apostle assures Christians that they have from the apostles all the truth (what they "heard from the beginning" vs. 24). He then says: "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth."

• The "truth heard from the beginning" relates to the oral teaching of the apostle.
• What John now writes has 3 basic purposes:

1. To confirm truths already taught.
   
2. To warn about the "lies" of the Antichrist.
   
3. And to give a permanent record of the truth.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:And to give a permanent record of the truth.

The Written Word was Confirmed by Apostolic Signature and Internal Evidence (reference)
The churches of New Testament times recognized the apostolic origin of the books they received.. ​

We place emphasis on the Scriptures because Jesus Christ and the Apostles emphasized the Scriptures.
There is no precedent in the OT that the God of the NT (who is the same God of the OT) does not direct His revelation to be written down and thus to pass it on in written form.

As you can see in this next verse there is no "tradition" of handing anything down "orally". (Many more scriptures)
Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The emphasis is on reading the scriptures and keeping that which is written down.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Hab_2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
Mat_24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

There is no such thing as extra-biblical revelation that is on the same level of authority as the Scriptures!!

There are also no Apostles today on the same level of Authority as the Apostles that God inspired to write down His words. (reference)
In order to change God's word by introducing NEW WORDS, there must of necessity be a redefining of what a modern day Apostle is. That redefinition, is that an Apostle today has the same authority as the original men that wrote the New Testament to write NEW revelation from God.

And of course I don't need to really say this but will just in case anyone thinks we are engaging in Bibliolatry. The Letter by itself without the Spirit kills. Only the Spirit of God can give the "Letter", (Scriptures) life!

There is no life in extra-biblical revelation that is on the same level of authority as the God's Holy Scriptures.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

Obvious avoidance of the questions of post # 74 Axehead.
Here is an easy question with the correct answer; "Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible ? Let's say that one of your Christian brothers interprets a verse contrary to your group's interpretation with the result initiating a huge problem within your assembly of believers, since you and your ilk refuse to give any answers, I will answer from the Holy Bible, that way you can't possibly say I'm wrong by contradicting the Holy Bible ,your sole rule of faith . - [ Matt. 18:15-18 ] in this verse [ preceding ] ,one can almost hear the note of amazement in Jesus' voice when He said: " If he refuses to listen even to the church.... implying that for someone to ignore the church, which church ?--- His Church--- and that would be the height of stupidity and foolishness for any self-processed Christian.Your truth can not contradict the Truth which is the inerrant Word of God, by contradicting the Bible you are claiming defeat and again your whole religious position would be collapsing in ruins.

 

[Axehead]

Obvious avoidance of the questions of post # 74 Axehead.
Here is an easy question with the correct answer; "Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible ? Let's say that one of your Christian brothers interprets a verse contrary to your group's interpretation with the result initiating a huge problem within your assembly of believers, since you and your ilk refuse to give any answers, I will answer from the Holy Bible, that way you can't possibly say I'm wrong by contradicting the Holy Bible ,your sole rule of faith . - [ Matt. 18:15-18 ] in this verse [ preceding ] ,one can almost hear the note of amazement in Jesus' voice when He said: " If he refuses to listen even to the church.... implying that for someone to ignore the church, which church ?--- His Church--- and that would be the height of stupidity and foolishness for any self-processed Christian.Your truth can not contradict the Truth which is the inerrant Word of God, by contradicting the Bible you are claiming defeat and again your whole religious position would be collapsing in ruins.

"Let's say that one of your Christian brothers interprets a verse contrary to your group's interpretation with the result initiating a huge problem within your assembly of believers,"

Can you give me a specific example of "the group's interpretation" and the "individual's interpretation" that would cause disunity?

The reason I ask, is because in my circle of friends, we don't insist that everyone line up with all the same interpretations of every scripture. Our point of fellowship it Jesus Christ and we realize that no two people believe everything the same.

There is no church on earth where every single person believes every single thing in the same way. That is not the focus of unity. The focus of Unity is Jesus Christ.

The point that Paul was stressing in keeping the "unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph 4:4)
was what makes us "one body", and that is Jesus Christ. If all members are truly holding to the Headship of Christ, then this (unity and peace) is the manifested reality.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Axehead

 

[mjrhealth]

Neo you consistenly argue about the truth, well Jesus dd send one to teach us the truth, whos words are not open to interpretation, nor debate, What HE speaks is truth because His words come from Jesus, He does not require a council for Hsi words are truth and nothong else.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Yet you consistenly deny Him who is sent by Jesus wo is the Truth. You have offered absolutely no proof of wht you consistenly say about you church being the one true church, All the evidence proves otherwise, one does not have to look far to see that. There are many catholics on this forum, we know, they talk like catholics, teach the doctrines of the catholic church,and send people to there church,a jehovas witness is no different and would do the same. But there are many here who follow Christ, they speak of Christ, the Holy Spirirt and the things of God, they lead people to Jesus, who is the truth. There is no requirement anywhere in the bible that says I must belong to a man made religion to be saved, it says we must have faith and belive. For many the work Jesus did was enough, it is Finished.

In His Love

 

[Axehead]

Neo you consistenly argue about the truth, well Jesus dd send one to teach us the truth, whos words are not open to interpretation, nor debate, What HE speaks is truth because His words come from Jesus, He does not require a council for Hsi words are truth and nothong else.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Yet you consistenly deny Him who is sent by Jesus wo is the Truth. You have offered absolutely no proof of wht you consistenly say about you church being the one true church, All the evidence proves otherwise, one does not have to look far to see that. There are many catholics on this forum, we know, they talk like catholics, teach the doctrines of the catholic church,and send people to there church,a jehovas witness is no different and would do the same. But there are many here who follow Christ, they speak of Christ, the Holy Spirirt and the things of God, they lead people to Jesus, who is the truth. There is no requirement anywhere in the bible that says I must belong to a man made religion to be saved, it says we must have faith and belive. For many the work Jesus did was enough, it is Finished.

In His Love

That is so true, mjrhealth. We need to lead people to Jesus, not our "church" (organization). Once someone comes to the Lord the Holy Spirit is more than capable of guiding them.

I have led Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, etc, to Christ. I never counsel anyone to join anything or anyone but Christ.

 

[neophyte]

Neo you consistenly argue about the truth, well Jesus dd send one to teach us the truth, whos words are not open to interpretation, nor debate, What HE speaks is truth because His words come from Jesus, He does not require a council for Hsi words are truth and nothong else.

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Yet you consistenly deny Him who is sent by Jesus wo is the Truth. You have offered absolutely no proof of wht you consistenly say about you church being the one true church, All the evidence proves otherwise, one does not have to look far to see that. There are many catholics on this forum, we know, they talk like catholics, teach the doctrines of the catholic church,and send people to there church,a jehovas witness is no different and would do the same. But there are many here who follow Christ, they speak of Christ, the Holy Spirirt and the things of God, they lead people to Jesus, who is the truth. There is no requirement anywhere in the bible that says I must belong to a man made religion to be saved, it says we must have faith and belive. For many the work Jesus did was enough, it is Finished.

In His Love

I see where you completely avoid the true fact that Jesus established His Church on earth , He said : 'my church'. Why do you not accept His One True Apostolic Church?
Both you and Axehead avoid the verse where Jesus tells us in [ Matt.18:15-18 ] You and all your protesting ilk [ Protestants, which means to me, those who protest against the One True Church that Jesus left for "all'' of us ] refuse also to abide by the commands of Jesus [ Eph. 4:3-6 } not any two prot. churches agree with one another on issues such as baptism,Bibles or Bible interpretations when Jesus clearly and emphatically states in { Romans 16: 17-18 and 1 Cor. 1:10 ] notice in those preceding verses that the true doctrine was in-place THEN not at some future date. You all only believe in what you want to by disregarding "ALL " the Words of Jesus. You say you follow Jesus, in a pig's eye you do ,you should say you only follow Jesus in the things that you were taught from a "bastardized'' , man- made twisted version of the Holy Bible You disregard everything else that Jesus taught. Notice that in Matt.16:19 Jesus doesn't say :" Whatever "I " bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven" It was Peter whom Jesus was speaking about, not Himself. .
All you can excel in is throwing the malarky with your smoke screen stawman posts. Why won't you answer my questions? I'll tell you why, because you know you can't, because if you answer honestly you would be admitting that your version of Christianity is a watered-down man-made version and it fails miserably. Sad how you say that I as a Catholic do not follow Christ, while I would defend my Christian [ yes Christian as in Christ ] faith to the end, I always will remember as a child when I proudly became a 'soldier of Christ' at my Catholic confirmation, we Catholics accept Christ during our early lives three times in our Christian Church [ and everyday is possible receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist at daily Mass,]-- [ 1] Baptism [ 2 ] First Communion [ 3 ] Confirmation, meaning we accept Jesus the Christ many more times into our hearts than any of you man-invented Prots do.You people are unreal, you can't even be honest with yourselfs.Now I'm probably in trouble with the moderators but I will not sit here and be insulted by some of you who probably haven't any idea how much,with physical danger, and loss of limb and body to one self in defending Christ and His much loved Christianity and it's Holy Bible.
Why can't we try and get along as brothers and sisters in Christ? If you would acknowledge Catholics as Christians as you should then that would be a proper beginning We could start by respecting each others Christian faith while disscussing our differences, acknowledge and accept the truth when Truth is stated and let go of false ego and false pride and false malarky man-made interpretations.

 

[Mungo]

Man-made religions have created "addendums" of their writings such as "catechisms" and "canon law" to go with the NT. And they then give these extra biblical writings the same authority as the Scriptures.

Are you just ignorant or throwing up staw men?

 

[Rex]

I did mention a snowman on the previous page.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16924-spoken-word-and-written-word-are-the-same/page__st__30#entry173849

 

[neophyte]

I did mention a snowman on the previous page.
http://www.christian..._30#entry173849

''
The only strawman quote is your's Rex where you wrote that Jesus formed an "invinciple or hidden church''.Still waiting on your strawman answer with another twisted verse, So where is your bible proof Rex ?

 

[Rex]

I believe that was another thread neo, but just the same

Selene said

The Church that Christ built is not made of stone

Not built with stone, so that leaves members and If that is so I can only presume you're able to judge another man in place of the Lord.
Scary ground here neo, so you see, it is invisible unless you know the members of the kingdom, I don't.

I replied to Selene this.

It;s a spiritual thing Selene, I sure you wouldn't understand, and it doesn't fit into the RCC catechism very well at all.
So don't worry yourself about it. You have your popes VIP pass to heaven that's all that really matters isn't it.

Selene said

Show me biblical scripture saying that the Church God built is invisible.

Then I replied with this and never heard back from Selene

2 Cor 6:16-17
Jer 31:33-34
Eze 11:17-19
Luke 17:21
Matthew 13:33

Please spare me your word games, "church" the bride of Christ is destine for the kingdom of heaven.
If you don't know by now Jesus spoke of the kingdom as being unseen by some.
If you don't understand this then the mystery of God my never be reveled to you.
By simply asking such a question only proves your loss of sight.

Heres the thread and conversation
http://www.christian..._30#entry174047

 

[neophyte]

Rex, I never trust Protestant interpretations from the Holy Bible being that I know that everyone of the thirty-thousand plus interpretations are all different and not one of those interpretations rhyme with the first early Christians interpretation from the apostles.
Christ's Apostolic Church teaches that the Church is a visible organization. Being a visible organization, it can be identified--it has marks. The marks are that it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic--"one" in that it is a unified organization, "holy" in that it is an organization divinely established, "catholic" in that it is to embrace all of mankind, and "apostolic" in that a line of succession has been kept with the authority Christ passed to Peter and the apostles.
Jesus said His Church would be " the light of the world '' [ Matt. 5:14 ] This means Christ's Apostolic Catholic Church is universal and very "visible".

 

[Rex]

Rex,
Christ's Apostolic Church teaches that the Church is a visible organization. Being a visible organization, it can be identified--it has marks. The marks are that it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic--"one" in that it is a unified organization, "holy" in that it is an organization divinely established, "catholic" in that it is to embrace all of mankind, and "apostolic" in that a line of succession has been kept with the authority Christ passed to Peter and the apostles.

Well Dorthy once clicked her heals together three times after looking behind the curtain and went home, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Axehead]

I see where you completely avoid the true fact that Jesus established His Church on earth , He said : 'my church'. Why do you not accept His One True Apostolic Church?

I don't see any reference to Apostolic Church in the Scriptures. I do see "church of God", "church of Christ", "church of the living God", "church of the Laodiceans", "church of the Thessalonians", "church of the Ephesians", "church of the Cretians" and "church of the Firstborn".

I think everyone accepts the Church of Jesus Christ and that it is His church.

Why can't we try and get along as brothers and sisters in Christ? If you would acknowledge Catholics as Christians as you should then that would be a proper beginning We could start by respecting each others Christian faith while discussing our differences, acknowledge and accept the truth when Truth is stated and let go of false ego and false pride and false malarky man-made interpretations.

Hey there Neo, I don't acknowledge anyone is a Christian without knowing them. And we are not talking about Catholics. Why do you want to make in about individual people? We are talking about the belief system called Catholicism. I have never said you were not a Christian. I don't know you personally and have never been able to observe your faith. All I have to go on are your words in this forum. I personally cannot acknowledge that Catholicism is Christian just like I cannot acknowledge that some Protestant beliefs line up with the Bible.

This is the first time I have been asked to acknowledge that you are a Christian. How can I know if you are if you only push the Roman Catholic Church doctrine and don't share your faith and love for Christ? All I can do is take your word for it, but I don't pass judgement on any individual.

Axehead

Rex, I never trust Protestant interpretations from the Holy Bible being that I know that everyone of the thirty-thousand plus interpretations are all different and not one of those interpretations rhyme with the first early Christians interpretation from the apostles.
Christ's Apostolic Church teaches that the Church is a visible organization. Being a visible organization, it can be identified--it has marks. The marks are that it is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic--"one" in that it is a unified organization, "holy" in that it is an organization divinely established, "catholic" in that it is to embrace all of mankind, and "apostolic" in that a line of succession has been kept with the authority Christ passed to Peter and the apostles.
Jesus said His Church would be " the light of the world '' [ Matt. 5:14 ] This means Christ's Apostolic Catholic Church is universal and very "visible".

30,000??? There are a lot more churches of God in the world than that!!!

 

[neophyte]

Well Dorthy once clicked her heals together three times after looking behind the curtain and went home, but that doesn't make it true.

Again you deny that the Church that Jesus left us was not one, holy and apostolic and you disagree with Jesus when He said His Church would be' the light of the world',How many lights have you seen that weren't "visible". Why do you try so hard to avoid the Truth?

 

[Mungo]

Well Dorthy once clicked her heals together three times after looking behind the curtain and went home, but that doesn't make it true.

How is that an answer to neophyte?

You are just avoiding his points.


It seems to me that there are three possibilities:

1. Jesus established more than one Church.

2. Jesus established only one Church but it is an invisible abstract spiritual Church in which all believers are members. In this Church one of these must be true, either:

i) doctrine does not matter, or
ii) it is acceptable to have conflicting doctrines and contradictory doctrines.

3. Jesus established only one Church, a visible Church, a Church in which doctrine matters and with no conflicting doctrines. This Church would have to contain the fullness of truth as revealed by God.

Personally I go with no. 3 and the only Church that matches that is the Catholic Church

I don't see any reference to Apostolic Church in the Scriptures. I do see "church of God", "church of Christ", "church of the living God", "church of the Laodiceans", "church of the Thessalonians", "church of the Ephesians", "church of the Cretians" and "church of the Firstborn".

Axehead

Apostolic is not the name of a the Church that Jesus founded, but a characteristic of that Church. It is Apostolic because it is founded on the apostles (Eph 2:19-20) and with the successors of the apostles still guiding the Church. The Nicene Creed says "We believe in to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church"

 

[THE Gypsy]

How is that an answer to neophyte?

You are just avoiding his points.


It seems to me that there are three possibilities:

1. Jesus established more than one Church.

2. Jesus established only one Church but it is an invisible abstract spiritual Church in which all believers are members. In this Church one of these must be true, either:

i) doctrine does not matter, or
ii) it is acceptable to have conflicting doctrines and contradictory doctrines.

3. Jesus established only one Church, a visible Church, a Church in which doctrine matters and with no conflicting doctrines. This Church would have to contain the fullness of truth as revealed by God.

Personally I go with no. 3 and the only Church that matches that is the Catholic Church



Apostolic is not the name of a the Church that Jesus founded, but a characteristic of that Church. It is Apostolic because it is founded on the apostles (Eph 2:19-20) and with the successors of the apostles still guiding the Church. The Nicene Creed says "We believe in to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church"

What I've always found interesting is not the word "apostolic" that you bolded but the word "AND".

But, then again...the entire paragraph was not in the original Creed.

 

[Axehead]

What I've always found interesting is not the word "apostolic" that you bolded but the word "AND".

But, then again...the entire paragraph was not in the original Creed.

They are trying to squeeze us into their narrow view of "One Church". Their view, their church, their dogma, their "Head". They show no desire to fellowship unless we accept their view of the "Universal" Church of Jesus Christ.

I affirm that there is one Church universal made up of all "children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
Do you affirm that? Yes or No.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I affirm that as there are many independent churches in the NT which were all part of the CHURCH Universal, as there are many churches (assemblies of Believers) today throughout the world, made up of Believers in Christ. Do you affirm that? Yes or No.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If anyone cannot gather around this belief, then you are sectarian and cannot fellowship with blood-bought saints outside of your organization/group/fellowship.

Axehead

 

[Mungo]

Jesus founded a Church (Mt 16:18); he founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)

He gave that Church one set of doctrines (Jud 3); a unity of belief (Phil. 1:27, 2:2)

Jesus made promises to this Church, covenant promises, which he guarantees (Heb 7:22)

Jesus promised his Church would be indefectible. – the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18)

He promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)

He appointed the Apostles with Peter as the leader (Mt 18:18-19) and gave them the mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. (Mt 28:16-20)

He promised he would not leave them on their own (Jn 14:18) but that he would be with them until the end of the age (Mt 28:20)

He prayed that it would be one Church (Jn 17:20-23)

He prayed that the Father would consecrate the Apostles in the truth (Jn 17:17), and the Father always hears Jesus (Jn 11:41-42). We are therefore guaranteed by Jesus that what his Church teaches is the truth.

That Church is headed by Christ (Col 1:18), but he appointed Peter to be the visible head on earth (Mt 16:18-19), to be the universal shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) of Christ’s one fold (Jn 10:16). This is the Catholic Church

Catholics believe the Church that Jesus founded is both visible and invisible. It is visible in that it exists in a visible structure, with a visible organisation and with authority given it by Jesus himself (Mt 18:18, Mt 28:18-20, Jon 20:21-23).
It is invisible in that it is the “body of Christ” which consists of all Christians.

There are four marks of the Church that Christ founded – one, holy, catholic and apostolic:

One – the can only be one Church, not a collection of different Churches (denominations) – Rom 12:5, 1Cor 10:17 & 12:13. Jesus can have only one Bride.

Holy – The Church is Holy, but that does not mean all members are holy – Eph 5:25-27.

Catholic – the Church is universal. Jesus calls all into the Church (Mt 28:19)

Apostolic – The Church is founded on the apostles (Eph 2:19-20). Jesus appointed apostles to be the first leaders and teachers, and their successors to continue to lead and teach and hand on what was handed on in Scripture and oral Tradition (2Tim 2:2)

The Catholic Church is the one Church that has preserved these four marks because God has preserved the one Church he founded, just as he promised he would (Mt 16:18 & 28:18-20)

 

[THE Gypsy]

There are four marks of the Church that Christ founded – one, holy, catholic and apostolic:

Show me one Scripture that states "catholic".

One – the can only be one Church, not a collection of different Churches (denominations) – Rom 12:5, 1Cor 10:17 & 12:13. Jesus can have only one Bride.

There is a difference between the "church" as spoken of in the Scripture and "denominations" as spoken of by man.

Holy – The Church is Holy, but that does not mean all members are holy – Eph 5:25-27.

GOD is Holy.

Catholic – the Church is universal. Jesus calls all into the Church

"Jesus calls all" to HIM.

Apostolic – The Church is founded on the apostles (Eph 2:19-20). Jesus appointed apostles to be the first leaders and teachers, and their successors to continue to lead and teach and hand on what was handed on in Scripture and oral Tradition (2Tim 2:2)

The church is founded on Christ.

The Catholic Church is the one Church that has preserved these four marks because God has preserved the one Church he founded, just as he promised he would (Mt 16:18 & 28:18-20)

Again...show me one Scripture that says..."God here...I have founded and preserved the Catholic Church just for you."

 

[Mungo]

I gave you the scripture references - look them up.