Will unbelievers never be saved?

[Wrangler]

Dear Wrangler,
The verse does not say that "some" will be saved - it says that Christ came to save the world.

You don't take v18 to mean some will be saved? Oy vey!

 

[FaithWillDo]

I'm sorry but that is not true. You answered a different question that you must have thought took >12 paragraphs. LOL

Dear Wrangler,
I very clearly answered your question in the first sentence of my post. I then proceed to scripturally prove my statement.

Anyone can make statements on this forum - but for it to be believed, it should be supported by scripture.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Not too humble.

Dear Wrangler,
I am merely stating the truth of God's Word.

Understanding God's Truth ONLY comes from Christ. If a person doesn't have understanding, they should pray for it.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

That prayer is between them and Christ.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You don't take v18 to mean some will be saved? Oy vey!

Dear Wrangler,
Christ teaches His truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). Making assumptions from one line of scripture frequently leads to error.
To know the truth that Christ will cause all mankind to believe in Him is taught in many other places of scripture. I have presented a few of them.

Joe

 

[Wrangler]

Dear Wrangler,
Christ teaches His truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). Making assumptions from one line of scripture frequently leads to error.
To know the truth that Christ will cause all mankind to believe in Him is taught in many other places of scripture. I have presented a few of them.

Joe

Friend. I am a binary thinker. Simple yes or no answers will generally suffice. Your replies tend to be non responsive to my question. I asked a yes or no question about v 18. If you cannot answer it, that's OK.

How do you reconcile John 3:16-18 with the verses from the OP?

 

[Episkopos]

I confess this OP is a challenge to our humility. Have we turned our Lord into an IDOL by holding fast to manmade doctrines that cannot withstand scrutiny? Our Lord and Savior is a man, not a doctrinal idol, yes? Most people, including Christians are exceedingly weak in logic. In this thread, I want to examine the often stated claim that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved from Scriptural evidence AND logic.

John 3:16 essentially saves if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved. In other words, it is a guarantee; if you do X, you will be saved. (I know this gnaws at layers of manmade IDOLATRY of it not being by our work that we are saved. This is merely a confusion of "work," in the general sense from "works" in the Biblical sense). But is the converse true?

What is the converse of a statement? When you reverse the subject and object.
TRUE STATEMENT: All square are rectangles.
CONVERSE: All rectangles are squares.

TRUE: All rectangles are NOT squares.​

NOTE: Single negative. 1 "not".​

TRUE STATEMENT: All who believe in Jesus will be saved.
CONVERSE: Those will NOT be saved who do NOT believe?

NOTE: Double negative. 2 "nots."​

I submit the converse is not true, just like with rectangles and squares. Scripture teaches those may be saved who are not believers of Jesus. Romans 2:

v6 (God) will judge everyone according to what they have done.​

NOTE: Not judged by what you do NOT believe but what you have done.​

​

v14-15 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. ​

This is consistent with Jeremiah 31:33, which invites another converse challenge. Just because God said in Jeremiah 31:33 that he will write his law on the hearts of the people of Israel does NOT mean he will NOT write it on the hearts of Gentiles.

Indeed, Romans 2:15 implies that God did write his laws on everyone's heart. Said differently, it is unjust to judge people by a law they were truly ignorant of. This logically follows from Romans 2:6 for one what rational basis could God judge everyone other than from the law he put in their own hearts?

This is ongoing revelation. In Jeremiah, God prophesied some of what he would do for Israel. In Romans, what he did is more fully revealed to apply to everyone.

So, this is the scriptural and logical basis to conclude that unbelievers may also be saved. In defense of the claim that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved (meaning unbelievers will not be saved), here is the challenge. Prove it! What Scripture and logical analysis supersedes what is presented here; what verse says unbelievers will NOT be saved?

Final point. Because we love image bearers of God, we encourage them to seek the guarantee of eternal life rather than rely on what is not guaranteed.

People are only saved through Jesus Christ. But do we need to mentally assent to this to be saved?

No. We will ALL be judged by our works...according to what we have each been given. To whom much is given MORE is required.

Did Jesus die for the church? Or the whole world? Is Jesus the Saviour of the church? Or the world?

This is where the divine balance is required to understand God's ways.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

There is no exclusivity to God's mercy. He will have mercy on who He wills.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim. 4:10

Especially those who believe...but not exclusively so.

 

[Wrangler]

People are only saved through Jesus Christ. But do we need to mentally assent to this to be saved?

No.

I think this is correct. God delegated judgement to Jesus as you say. That is, it is Jesus we will stand before on Judgement Day. Every single one of us. Everyone saved or condemned is so at Jesus' determination. And in this way, we are saved through Jesus Christ.

How do you reconcile @FaithWillDo's invoking John 3:16-18 in opposition to our position?

 

[Wrangler]

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim. 4:10

Especially those who believe...but not exclusively so.

Excellent reference!

 

[Episkopos]

I think this is correct. God delegated judgement to Jesus as you say. That is, it is Jesus we will stand before on Judgement Day. Every single one of us. Everyone saved or condemned is so at Jesus' determination. And in this way, we are saved through Jesus Christ.

How do you reconcile @FaithWillDo's invoking John 3:16-18 in opposition to our position?

John speaks of salvation INTO Christ (eis)...which is salvation FROM SIN....NOW. We have eternal life NOW when we believe INTO Christ.


John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes INTO (eis) me has everlasting life." We enter into zoe life in the Spirit when our faith is strengthened by grace into the faith OF Christ. IN Him we go from faith to faith...and thus the righteousness of God is revealed.

John is NOT speaking of an inheritance on judgment day. John speaks of the present time. Whoever believes INTO Jesus HAS eternal life. (Not will have one day.) John's gospel is a spiritual one.

The church is supposed to be the ones who reflect God's love and power NOW...not be waiting until we die to receive promises. The promises are to walk in NOW.

Holiness salvation is now...in power over sin...to walk as Jesus walked, in an eternal kind of life.
Righteousness salvation is at the coming judgment...for an eternal inheritance.

 

[Wrangler]

John is NOT speaking of an inheritance on judgment day. John speaks of the present time. Whoever believes INTO Jesus HAS eternal life. (Not will have one day.) John's gospel is a spiritual one.

The church is supposed to be the ones who reflect God's love and power NOW...not be waiting until we die to receive promises. The promises are to walk in NOW.

Growing up Catholic, many got this wrong.

It’s not merely eternal life but having the Spirit of God dwell in us NOW, with the peace that transcends all understanding NOW.

The thing about our inheritance, someone has to die to receive it - and that is us; we have to die daily to self, as Paul said. As you say, we are already in God’s Will. That should give us comfort, confidence, appreciation and peace - all in great abundance.

 

[RedFan]

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim. 4:10

Especially those who believe...but not exclusively so.

I wonder of there is another way to interpret this verse which would be more consistent with Pauline theology (as opposed to with Universalism). We might understand "all men" to refer simply to "both Jews and Gentiles." And we might understand "specially" as "particularly." Would that be a possible interpretation that restricts salvation to believers only? I'm not a Greek scholar, but maybe someone who is can weigh in here.

 

[Episkopos]

I wonder of there is another way to interpret this verse which would be more consistent with Pauline theology (as opposed to with Universalism). We might understand "all men" to refer simply to "both Jews and Gentiles." And we might understand "specially" as "particularly." Would that be a possible interpretation that restricts salvation to believers only? I'm not a Greek scholar, but maybe someone who is can weigh in here.

The "especially those that believe" closes the loophole that sees fundamentalists trying to negate the word of God as they are wont to do so often.

 

[RedFan]

The "especially those that believe" closes the loophole that sees fundamentalists trying to negate the word of God as they are wont to do so often.

While I'm not a Fundamentalist by any stretch, I don't see the phrase as closing a loophole so much as opening the gates wider, perhaps even to nonbelievers. What I'm asking is, will the Greek support a narrower meaning?

 

[Episkopos]

While I'm not a Fundamentalist by any stretch, I don't see the phrase as closing a loophole so much as opening the gates wider, perhaps even to nonbelievers. What I'm asking is, will the Greek support a narrower meaning?

God is indeed merciful to non-believers...if they DO the commandments of God. We will be judged by what we DO...not what we believe.

 

[O'Darby]

While I'm not a Fundamentalist by any stretch, I don't see the phrase as closing a loophole so much as opening the gates wider, perhaps even to nonbelievers. What I'm asking is, will the Greek support a narrower meaning?

I found this to be a thoughtful and intelligent analysis that deals with the Greek and places the verse in the context of Paul's overall theology: 1 Timothy 4:10 | Salvation By Grace.

One of my frequent responses to these sorts of discussions is, "You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of one verse." That mileage always leads to some pet idea that is inconsistent with the overall thrust of what is being said.

 

[Ritajanice]

I confess this OP is a challenge to our humility. Have we turned our Lord into an IDOL by holding fast to manmade doctrines that cannot withstand scrutiny? Our Lord and Savior is a man, not a doctrinal idol, yes? Most people, including Christians are exceedingly weak in logic. In this thread, I want to examine the often stated claim that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved from Scriptural evidence AND logic.

I think we are all at different levels of spiritual understanding.

I can relate to saved, but, imo, only in its right context...Born Again then we are saved from eternal damnation.....

We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom of God,we receive spiritual eyes and ears when we become Born Again...they see and hear as we grow more in the Spirit.....our growth comes from the Spirit....my opinion and belief.lol = lots of Love.

 

[O'Darby]

Faulty Logic + Dubious Proof-Texting = Bible-Crank Theology

I just invented that, and I kind of like it! :)

 

[RedFan]

God is indeed merciful to non-believers...if they DO the commandments of God. We will be judged by what we DO...not what we believe.

Maybe so -- but the question under consideration is the proper interpretation of an apparently universalist phrase in First Timothy that facially appears to be in tension with other Pauline writings. Do you have anything to say on the meaning of the Greek?

 

[Behold]

Faulty Logic + Dubious Proof-Texting = Bible-Crank Theology

I just invented that, and I kind of like it! :)

It certainly perfectly fits what you post and believe.

 

[Behold]

We will be judged by what we DO...not what we believe.

You've posted Another Cross denying deception.

Amazing that you do not understand that God only accepts and saves and redeems those who BELIEVE IN CHRIST.

You just posted that belief is not necessary...

And its not necessary if someone is lost and on their way to hell., as the Highway to Hell is freshly paved with unbelief.

That's an eternal fact.