Will unbelievers never be saved?

[Wrangler]

If those non-Israelites who coincidentally, unwittingly, conform(ed) and obeyed even a part of God’s laws given to the Israelites, and are capable, because God have planted these thoughts in their consciences, to all mankind, they are still not justified to righteousness in knowing the truth – of the Gospel. As verse 14 says, they are still their own judge of these laws to, and for themselves.

Huh? They are their own judge not God? They do right but are still not right? Wow.

 

[APAK]

Appeal to Strawman. I never said anything like this. Not sure why you've gone the route of developing commentaries. Circuitous, at best - the opposite of going for brevity. LOL

It is generally true that people act on their beliefs. What's specifically missing from your assertion is the tie in to those who do not believe or accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior - the point of the OP. The Scriptures quoted in the OP imply those who are not Jesus followers still act on the beliefs God put on their heart AND this action is specifically what they will be judged by - not their choice of belief, on following Jesus, per se.

This brings up another question, can people chose what to believe? For instance, I believe candidate X is the best and someone else believes candidate Y is the best. This seque's into Confirmation Bias once the belief is held. Perhaps that is fodder for another thread.

As you said "The Scriptures quoted in the OP imply those who are not Jesus followers still act on the beliefs God put on their heart AND this action is specifically what they will be judged by - not their choice of belief, on following Jesus, per se."

Well they/these do not according to scripture, and as I explained. They still act self-righteously. You imposed your own will in this scripture to fit your hypotheses. I try very, very hard to keep my views out of scripture when I interpret it, to not get carried away with even exciting novel associated ideas, that really deflect the word at hand. It's hard to do at times.

 

[Behold]

""""But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37:For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.""""


Notice : "by thy words you shall be condemned."

What is that?

That is the condemnation on everyone who does not speak these words before you die.

= "And CONFESSION is made unto salvation".

See those words?
Those words are "Yes i BELIEVE In Jesus" and God accepts those Heartwords of Faith... to SAVE YOU.

And if those words are not spoken from a Heart of Faith, then you will be judged for not ever saying them, and that is because you died in Unbelief.
And an unbelievers words are... "i dont believe".

And you are this one right now and after you die.

John 3:36

 

[O'Darby]

As you said "The Scriptures quoted in the OP imply those who are not Jesus followers still act on the beliefs God put on their heart AND this action is specifically what they will be judged by - not their choice of belief, on following Jesus, per se."

Well they/these do not according to scripture, and as I explained. They still act self-righteously. You imposed your own will in this scripture to fit your hypotheses. I try very, very hard to keep my views out of scripture when I interpret it, to not get carried away with even exciting novel associated ideas, that really deflect the word at hand. It's hard to do at times.

Bingo. On another forum where anyone who said he was a Christian simply was and could not be challenged, I don't know how many times I made the point "You can't reinvent Christianity from what it has always been understood to be and call your reinvention Christianity," I came to see that "reinvented Christianity" was a bigger threat to Christianity than atheism or Islam could ever be. Typically, it took the form of eliminating or watering down core essentials that every branch of Christianity has always recognized.

The reinventors always have their screwball proof-texting and "creative" interpretations in an attempt to create an illusion that what they are promoting is the "real" Christianity that others have missed. HOW MANY of these characters are on this little forum? Some of my own thinking is definitely outside the mainstream and outside of what I can support with the Bible, but I try to be honest enough to acknowledge this and not pretend that that my views are the "real Christianity" that mainstream Christianity has missed.

 

[Wrangler]

You imposed your own will in this scripture to fit your hypotheses.

With all due respect my friend, you're projecting. Obviously imbuing with theological significance your own commentary, "All Judged by the Son of God – according to truth and righteousness of God" as if Scripture means the very opposite of what it says about unbelievers judged according to their actions - not beliefs.

I noticed your analysis does not allow for exceptions, such as babies dying. Does that theology sit well with you or do you now feel exceptions to the belief criteria need amending?

Have you written other commentaries? How long have you been writing commentaries? I don't recall you doing that before.

 

[APAK]

With all due respect my friend, you're projecting. Obviously imbuing with theological significance your own commentary, "All Judged by the Son of God – according to truth and righteousness of God" as if Scripture means the very opposite of what it says about unbelievers judged according to their actions - not beliefs.

I noticed your analysis does not allow for exceptions, such as babies dying. Does that theology sit well with you or do you now feel exceptions to the belief criteria need amending?

Have you written other commentaries? How long have you been writing commentaries? I don't recall you doing that before.

ok, now its projection psycho time...and now you confuse and load up the subject purposely to try and trip me up and to mask the essence of the reason for it exiting, raison d'etre, with why not account for babies dying now...why not add in the mentally handicapped in the mix.....these are entirely different subjects although associated with this subjects.

I'm think I'm done with this subject at this point.

 

[Wrangler]

ok, now its projection psycho time

I see. It's OK when you invoke psycho time.

You imposed your own will in this scripture to fit your hypotheses.

To mask the essence of the reason for it exiting, raison d'etre, with why not account for babies dying now...why not add in the mentally handicapped in the mix.....these are entirely different subjects although associated with this subjects.

Nope. They are all the same subject. Subcategorizing groups who do not believe in Jesus does not change their belief lacking in common.

I'm think I'm done with this subject at this point.

Understood.

Romans 2
v6 (God) will judge everyone according to what they have done.
NOTE: Not judged by what one does NOT believe but what one has done.

v14-15 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.


We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, but especially of those who have faith.
1 Timothy 4:10 (Savior of everyone, especially, NOT exclusively those who have faith)

 

[Wrangler]

I saw this and thought it was pretty funny. Now, imagine it says unbelievers ...

 

[Taken]

Will unbelievers never be saved?

A man Broadly has to the moment of his Bodily Death, to become Saved.

Salvation is literally GIVEN a man AFTER his Bodily DEATH.

* Broadly BECAUSE, “IF” the man has LIED to the Holy Spirit…He can NOT become MADE Saved.

A man HAS the Offering of Jesus’ BETTER TESTAMENT…(Heb 7:22).

A man CAN elect…BEFORE his physical Death, TO VOW his own Body unto Death “FOR him to Receive his gift of Salvation WHILE STILL Bodily ALIVE…YET spiritually VIA becoming Crucified WITH Christ…called a LIVING SACRIFICE…(Rom 12:1)

His BODY (according to Gods Order and Way) is Accounted having died, fulfilling the ONE Requirement that a man MUST DIE ONCE…and thus HE CAN RIGHT THEN, receive His SALVATION Gift…and it can NEVER be removed…Forever kept unto that man BY the INTERNAL Spirit (POWER) of God…IN that man.
Which IS CALLED…Forgiven….Converted…Born Again…Healed…Soul Saved…Spirit Quickened….and OSAS.

Many during the tribulation, will become believers, confess their belief, and physically become bodily killed…(and thus SAVED after their bodily Death.)

Many will continue their disbelief…be killed…and NEVER BECOME MADE SAVED.
They are called Damned.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Duck Muscles]

I remember reading they can still accept salvation during the great tribulation.

 

[Wrangler]

A man Broadly has to the moment of his Bodily Death, to become Saved.

Not a Scripture verse in sight. Odd that you disregard the verses in the OP.

Salvation is literally GIVEN a man AFTER his Bodily DEATH.

No. An inheritance is received after death but one is in the will before.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I confess this OP is a challenge to our humility. Have we turned our Lord into an IDOL by holding fast to manmade doctrines that cannot withstand scrutiny? Our Lord and Savior is a man, not a doctrinal idol, yes? Most people, including Christians are exceedingly weak in logic. In this thread, I want to examine the often stated claim that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved from Scriptural evidence AND logic.

John 3:16 essentially saves if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved. In other words, it is a guarantee; if you do X, you will be saved. (I know this gnaws at layers of manmade IDOLATRY of it not being by our work that we are saved. This is merely a confusion of "work," in the general sense from "works" in the Biblical sense). But is the converse true?

What is the converse of a statement? When you reverse the subject and object.
TRUE STATEMENT: All square are rectangles.
CONVERSE: All rectangles are squares.

TRUE: All rectangles are NOT squares.​

NOTE: Single negative. 1 "not".​

TRUE STATEMENT: All who believe in Jesus will be saved.
CONVERSE: Those will NOT be saved who do NOT believe?

NOTE: Double negative. 2 "nots."​

I submit the converse is not true, just like with rectangles and squares. Scripture teaches those may be saved who are not believers of Jesus. Romans 2:

v6 (God) will judge everyone according to what they have done.​

NOTE: Not judged by what you do NOT believe but what you have done.​

​

v14-15 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. ​

This is consistent with Jeremiah 31:33, which invites another converse challenge. Just because God said in Jeremiah 31:33 that he will write his law on the hearts of the people of Israel does NOT mean he will NOT write it on the hearts of Gentiles.

Indeed, Romans 2:15 implies that God did write his laws on everyone's heart. Said differently, it is unjust to judge people by a law they were truly ignorant of. This logically follows from Romans 2:6 for one what rational basis could God judge everyone other than from the law he put in their own hearts?

This is ongoing revelation. In Jeremiah, God prophesied some of what he would do for Israel. In Romans, what he did is more fully revealed to apply to everyone.

So, this is the scriptural and logical basis to conclude that unbelievers may also be saved. In defense of the claim that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved (meaning unbelievers will not be saved), here is the challenge. Prove it! What Scripture and logical analysis supersedes what is presented here; what verse says unbelievers will NOT be saved?

Final point. Because we love image bearers of God, we encourage them to seek the guarantee of eternal life rather than rely on what is not guaranteed.

A few issues. Scripture does not support your view.

John 3: 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5: 38 - But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

John 8: 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

2 Thess 2: 12 - that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 John 5: 10 - He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

If anyone does not believe, they are condemned. There will be no unbeliever in heaven.

Even in the OT. Abraham Believed, and he was saved

 

[Wrangler]

A few issues. Scripture does not support your view.

It's cool how you make this statement disregarding the Scripture verses that do support my view. What do you have to say about those Scritptures? Expecially, not exclusively 1 Tim 4:10?

 

[Wrangler]

Even in the OT. Abraham Believed, and he was saved

That's a good point. Abraham believed in God - not that Jesus was the Messiah - and Abraham was saved. Do you suppose salvation to unbelievers in Jesus only extend to Abraham?

 

[Taken]

Not a Scripture verse in sight. Odd that you disregard the verses in the OP.

Didn’t disregard.
ManKind has a natural life (blood).
Until the day a mans natural life ends, he has time to Belief IN his Heart (ie natural spirit), IN the Lord God.

WHO knows the (natural) spirit of a man…
BUT the man himself and God?

No. An inheritance is received after death but one is in the will before.

Sure. I said nothing to the contrary.
A man MUST bodily DIE, Before he receives his INHERITANCE…(ie An ever lasting Bodily Life, born of Gods SEED.)

A natural body BORN of a man’s SEED, MUST Die, before that body CAN become BORN of Gods SEED.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Jesus REVEALED…and Offered for ANY man to TAKE….BETTER TESTAMENT…

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

WHAT? What could be BETTER TESTAMENT for a man, to HOPE by his own POWER, he is strong enough to REJECT, cunning trickery of EVIL angels upon the earth…? Or powerful anti-God sitting governing kings of the earth…?

Spiritual Offered Crucifixion WITH the Body of Christ Jesus! WHICH is the ASSURED offering by, through, of Christ Jesus…of that man Fulfilling his REQUIREMENT of ONE bodily Death, expressly given FOR a Testament of THAT MANS “Heartful BELIEF IN the Lord God Almighty”…

All things Possible “WITH” God…is Christ Jesus’ offering of ASSURED Salvation….before a human mans physical bodily death….
ASSURED by, through, of the Lord God Himself….and the basis upon which OSAS, stands…

The man who DOES NOT “TAKE” Jesus’ Offering of ASSURED SALVATION…can certainly continue HOPING (by his own power) he can stand against…the powerful evil spirits roaming the earth and the powerful wicked anti-godly kings of the earth….how about the peoples of North Korea….subject to a strong anti-God governing head for example? Can you imagine a N.Korean person wanting the word of God, but to Have even a Book of Gods Word makes that person subject to a Death Sentence?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's cool how you make this statement disregarding the Scripture verses that do support my view.

Does scripture contradict itself. I am surprised you even ask this question.

What do you have to say about those Scritptures? Expecially, not exclusively 1 Tim 4:10?

romans 2: 6 does NOT support your view.

Romans 2 is paul making an argument that continues all the way into romans 3. Where he concludes a fact.

1. There are none righteous
2. No one has kept the law
3. The law has confined all have sinned. and are thus guilty
4. They are justified BY FAITH - (not by works) \
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

You can't pull verses out of scripture and say they support you without looking in Context.

Jeremiah 31: 33 - has not even happened yet.. This is a future prophecy of Israel repenting.. But it does not say God will not also do it for the gentiles..

1 tim 4: 10. I did not see where you quoted

10 For to this end [c]we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Jesus died for ALL MEN. So in fact. he is the savior of all men

But only those who recieve his gift in faith will be saved.

Again, go back to John 3. Also john 1. But as many as have received him TO THEM he gave the right to become children of God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's a good point. Abraham believed in God - not that Jesus was the Messiah - and Abraham was saved. Do you suppose salvation to unbelievers in Jesus only extend to Abraham?

romans 4 says we will be saved by this same faith.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Again, who is our faith in. Is it in self. or is it in God..

If you do not believe, you are condemned.

 

[Wrangler]

Does scripture contradict itself. I am surprised you even ask this question.

Yes. See post on Bishop Spong.

 

[Wrangler]

The law has confined all have sinned. and are thus guilty

The law does not apply to Gentiles - never did.

 

[Wrangler]

1 tim 4: 10. I did not see where you quoted

10 For to this end [c]we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Jesus died for ALL MEN. So in fact. he is the savior of all men

But only those who recieve his gift in faith will be saved.

Do you see how you are adding text in red while ignoring the “especially” in blue? Especially does not mean exclusively, does it