Will unbelievers never be saved?

[MatthewG]

And again, as I mention in others words previously, Romans 2:6 says the judgement is based on deeds or actions, and then these deeds flow or are derived from Romans 2:2, "...the judgement of God is according (based on) the truth against them who are unrighteous and commit these unrighteous deeds.

And the righteous truth therefore means those who believe in the gospel Romans 1:16-17; 2:2,16.

And the unrighteous truth is of self-righteous men who altered(s) the righteous truth. (Romans 1:18, 25)

So logically and in summary:

Belief in Gospel (Romans 1:16-17; 2:16) ---->righteous truth (Romans 2:2) ---> basis for judgement ----> seen via actions or deeds whether righteous or unrighteous. (Romans 2:6). A judgement in favor of, or against men


And so not every one will be saved as God is merciful and also just @MatthewG .

Reason you quote me in this, for @APAK?

Paul writing to timothy.
”Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead. They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. For we know it is made acceptable by the word of God and prayer. If you explain these things to the brothers and sisters, Timothy, you will be a worthy servant of Christ Jesus, one who is nourished by the message of faith and the good teaching you have followed. Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly. “Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come.” This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it. This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. Teach these things and insist that everyone learn them. Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity. Until I get there, focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them. Do not neglect the spiritual gift you received through the prophecy spoken over you when the elders of the church laid their hands on you. Give your complete attention to these matters. Throw yourself into your tasks so that everyone will see your progress. Keep a close watch on how you live and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right for the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of those who hear you.“
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭16‬ ‭NLT‬‬

It seems Gods got a kingdom set up with people outside and inside the kingdom, in revelation 21,22. Are all people saved to the kingdom of Heaven? Not going into the kingdom it seems… they are saved, and placed outside of it…

Idk why God does this.

 

[APAK]

Reason you quote me in this, for @APAK?

Paul writing to timothy.
”Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead. They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanks by faithful people who know the truth. Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. For we know it is made acceptable by the word of God and prayer. If you explain these things to the brothers and sisters, Timothy, you will be a worthy servant of Christ Jesus, one who is nourished by the message of faith and the good teaching you have followed. Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly. “Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come.” This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it. This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. Teach these things and insist that everyone learn them. Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity. Until I get there, focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them. Do not neglect the spiritual gift you received through the prophecy spoken over you when the elders of the church laid their hands on you. Give your complete attention to these matters. Throw yourself into your tasks so that everyone will see your progress. Keep a close watch on how you live and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right for the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of those who hear you.“
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭16‬ ‭NLT‬‬

It seems Gods got a kingdom set up with people outside and inside the kingdom, in revelation 21,22. Are all people saved to the kingdom of Heaven? Not going into the kingdom it seems… they are saved, and placed outside of it…

Idk why God does this.

I do not see any two camps of God, and not one for the saved and another for the unsaved in this scripture and any other scripture Matthew.

Paul is saying that in the 'last days', and to me that included since the time of Christ through 70 AD and into the future, there was and always are false believers who never embraced the truth of the gospel, never saved, and therefore eventually fell away from knowing the truth with saving faith given by God through his graces, and therefore never received the Spirit of truth within them to bring then to become saved. And this in every generation...

 

[MatthewG]

I do not see any two camps of God, and not one for the saved and another for the unsaved in this scripture and any other scripture Matthew.

Paul is saying that in the 'last days', and to me that included since the time of Christ through 70 AD and into the future, there was and always are false believers who never embraced the truth of the gospel, never saved, and therefore eventually fell away from knowing the truth with saving faith given by God through his graces, and therefore never received the Spirit of truth within them to bring then to become saved. And this in every generation...

I’m not worried about people who claim faith yet in their life they are unloving and believe they are better than others, @APAK. God will have his vengeance, and judgment concerning those matters, if they choose to cause evil.

I’m just asking, what makes you think that God doesn’t have his kingdom set up how he wants it. With people coming in, and those who were outside the gate, outside the gate. Written about in Revelation. That does seem clear that was something God desired for us to know about from Revelation from the Lord Jesus, to the messenger to John.

 

[Wrangler]

And again, as I mention in others words previously, Romans 2:6 says the judgement is based on deeds or actions, and then these deeds flow or are derived from Romans 2:2, "...the judgement of God is according (based on) the truth against them who are unrighteous and commit these unrighteous deeds.

Not sure what translation you are reading. From ESV

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.

Romans 2:1-2 is another prohibition against hypocrisy, that you will be judged by the same standard of judgment you use - or practice.

Again v6 (VOICE)
As it goes, everyone will receive what his actions in life have cultivated.

Actions - not beliefs.

 

[APAK]

I’m not worried about people who claim faith yet in their life they are unloving and believe they are better than others, @APAK. God will have his vengeance, and judgment concerning those matters, if they choose to cause evil.

I’m just asking, what makes you think that God doesn’t have his kingdom set up how he wants it. With people coming in, and those who were outside the gate, outside the gate. Written about in Revelation. That does seem clear that was something God desired for us to know about from Revelation from the Lord Jesus, to the messenger to John.

I do not know what my basis or reasoning would be to thinking such a thing. And the Spirit of Christ withing me had not drawn me to such a conclusion, yet.

And of course his Kingdom is establish for all saved and the details of it I do not know. I do not think it is a gate swung open to non-citizens of the Kingdom either, that would pollute it I would think.

Where did you get these types of ideas....? You know in Rev, the language in many places are highly symbolized and difficult to meld into our modern way of thinking....

 

[MatthewG]

I do not know what my basis or reasoning would be to thinking such a thing. And the Spirit of Christ withing me had not drawn me to such a conclusion, yet.

And of course his Kingdom is establish for all saved and the details of it I do not know. I do not think it is a gate swung open to non-citizens of the Kingdom either, that would pollute it I would think.

Where did you get these types of ideas....? You know in Rev, the language in many places are highly symbolized and difficult to meld into our modern way of thinking....

I just believe what John wrote for us to be revealed concerning what the Father told Jesus, to send a message to those 7 churches still stand true today…

It’s said if you take away from those words plagues will consume…

Therefore I tell it such as. The gates around the city never close.

 

[APAK]

Not sure what translation you are reading. From ESV

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.

Romans 2:1-2 is another prohibition against hypocrisy, that you will be judged by the same standard of judgment you use - or practice.

Again v6 (VOIVE):
As it goes, everyone will receive what his actions in life have cultivated.

Actions - not beliefs.

That's what you continue to say today, and its not scripture for this subject nor logical in practice for any human being.

Today, my actions are intended to serve the lord with the spirit's guidance and approval, eventhough very infrequently today I do miss the mark. Now does this say my few even repented blemishes spoil the rest of my righteous thoughts and then my actions or deeds, and whilst possessing the spirit of truth? Not likely. The motivation of the heart and mind, will dictate one's actions I would think. It drives one's actions or deeds and cannot be separated for the will. The entire message is about a righteous condemnation of the unrighteous of their heart and then it demonstrated by their actions....I think I've make my point once again.

 

[MatthewG]

@APAK its a wonder why people tend to desire to put the less desirable’s as though they are no good or even useful to God in some way or another…

It’s a wonder why people wouldn’t desire for what God desires…

I believe God even calls out in the afterlife though I have no proof… I just believe God is like that…

 

[Behold]

@Wrangler I see all people being saved from sin, death, Satan, hades.

If "all people are saved" then that would mean that the Christ rejectors and the Born again are all in heaven.

That'll never happen.

 

[MatthewG]

If "all people are saved" then that would mean that the Christ rejectors and the Born again are all in heaven.

That'll never happen.

That’s exactly what revelation says is.

 

[APAK]

@APAK its a wonder why people tend to desire to put the less desirable’s as though they are no good or even useful to God in some way or another…

It’s a wonder why people wouldn’t desire for what God desires…

I believe God even calls out in the afterlife though I have no proof… I just believe God is like that…

When it comes down to it Matthew, God judges the hearts of people for righteousness, of the truth that MUST be in part knowing elements not all of gospel or some feature of his savior for their need to be saved. And they who believe 'this' know or acknowledge they need to be saved as they know they are defective in heart.

 

[MatthewG]

When it comes down to it Matthew, God judges the hearts of people for righteousness, of the truth that MUST be in part knowing elements not all of gospel or some feature of his savior for their need to be saved. And they who believe 'this' know or acknowledge they need to be saved as they know they are defective in heart.

I think he is judging to see whether or not Jesus is there.

 

[Behold]

That’s exactly what revelation says is.

The Revelation does not state that Dead Christ Rejectors will be in Heaven, with the Born again, who trusted Christ.

Unbelievers, will have no part in Heaven, other then Revelation 20:11

You need to consider that "if God is just going to let everyone into heaven""", then Why did Jesus have to be tortured on the Cross.??


Jesus is coming back for His BRIDE and unbelievers are not His Bride.

Jesus will say to unbelievers who are never born again.....>"Depart from me, as i never knew you".. Now "welcome home" ...

Yet you teach the opposite because Heretics, Liars, have your mind as their Theology, and that is why you teach against the Truth, much of the time.

 

[Wrangler]

That's what you continue to say today, and its not scripture for this subject nor logical in practice for any human being.

Well, my friend, obviously we completely disaree on this one. It is Scripture, as I've shown and it is the ONLY logical means for any human to practice - judge people by what they do not what they believe.

 

[Behold]

Well, my friend, obviously we completely disaree on this one. It is Scripture, as I've shown and it is the ONLY logical means for any human to practice - judge people by what they do not what they believe.

We are to judge what people believe, as that is why some of it is called "doctrines of Devil's " in Hebrews 13:9

 

[Wrangler]

Today, my actions are intended to serve the lord

That reminds me. I asked in an earlier post about you writing commentaries. How many chapters hae you done this for?

 

[APAK]

That reminds me. I asked in an earlier post about you writing commentaries. How many chapters hae you done this for?

Well, for this subject or in general, on commentaries? As you know I am writing a book as a Bible Companion type, been doing it now for years.

And actually, this section of Romans 1 and 2 chapters we not filled in yet. I developed them on the fly for you and my interest.

 

[ScottA]

I confess this OP is a challenge to our humility. Have we turned our Lord into an IDOL by holding fast to manmade doctrines that cannot withstand scrutiny? Our Lord and Savior is a man, not a doctrinal idol, yes? Most people, including Christians are exceedingly weak in logic. In this thread, I want to examine the often stated claim that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved from Scriptural evidence AND logic.

John 3:16 essentially saves if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved. In other words, it is a guarantee; if you do X, you will be saved. (I know this gnaws at layers of manmade IDOLATRY of it not being by our work that we are saved. This is merely a confusion of "work," in the general sense from "works" in the Biblical sense). But is the converse true?

What is the converse of a statement? When you reverse the subject and object.
TRUE STATEMENT: All square are rectangles.
CONVERSE: All rectangles are squares.

TRUE: All rectangles are NOT squares.​

NOTE: Single negative. 1 "not".​

TRUE STATEMENT: All who believe in Jesus will be saved.
CONVERSE: Those will NOT be saved who do NOT believe?

NOTE: Double negative. 2 "nots."​

I submit the converse is not true, just like with rectangles and squares. Scripture teaches those may be saved who are not believers of Jesus. Romans 2:

v6 (God) will judge everyone according to what they have done.​

NOTE: Not judged by what you do NOT believe but what you have done.​

​

v14-15 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. ​

This is consistent with Jeremiah 31:33, which invites another converse challenge. Just because God said in Jeremiah 31:33 that he will write his law on the hearts of the people of Israel does NOT mean he will NOT write it on the hearts of Gentiles.

Indeed, Romans 2:15 implies that God did write his laws on everyone's heart. Said differently, it is unjust to judge people by a law they were truly ignorant of. This logically follows from Romans 2:6 for one what rational basis could God judge everyone other than from the law he put in their own hearts?

This is ongoing revelation. In Jeremiah, God prophesied some of what he would do for Israel. In Romans, what he did is more fully revealed to apply to everyone.

So, this is the scriptural and logical basis to conclude that unbelievers may also be saved. In defense of the claim that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved (meaning unbelievers will not be saved), here is the challenge. Prove it! What Scripture and logical analysis supersedes what is presented here; what verse says unbelievers will NOT be saved?

Final point. Because we love image bearers of God, we encourage them to seek the guarantee of eternal life rather than rely on what is not guaranteed.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:48​

 

[ScottA]

You can only be saved through Christ, there is no other, and yet we know that many will be saved that never read a single word of the Bible. So how is this possible, because in his mercy and grace, He reveals Himself and His truth in other ways. To Adam He spoke directly and even to Cain warning of the danger at his door because of the hatred rising within him, and Noah and Abraham and many others. But then we have those who believed like Job, who did nothing wrong and yet was tested and stayed faithful no matter what. Where did he learn the things of God, how could he have such faith, and all those outside of the chosen people. The holy men and prophets, Melchizedek, Jethro, Enoch and others, how were the things of God revealed to them and the coming Christ unveiled. God in His wisdom gave what was visions, knowledge, and understanding to reveal it to them as He does even today..

Indeed, that knock on the door by Jesus comes differently to many in different circumstances.

The heavens declare the glory of God;​

And the firmament shows His handiwork.​

Day unto day utters speech,​

And night unto night reveals knowledge.​

There is no speech nor language​

Where their voice is not heard. Psalm 19:1-3​

 

[Taken]

That's a good point. Abraham believed in God - not that Jesus was the Messiah - and Abraham was saved. Do you suppose salvation to unbelievers in Jesus only extend to Abraham?

What is/was Secret belongs/belonged to God.

Deut 29:
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Jesus’ name had not YET been revealed in Abraham’s Day…

Judg 13:
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

However Gods WORD had been revealed, and Abraham Believed Gods Word.

Once God prepared a BODY for His WORD, and sent that BODY TO EARTH, with A NAME…..thereafter that revealing belongs to the Whole World, to choose to Believe it or Not.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:



Glory to God,
Taken