You reveal your self in your words. I don't speak this way. You do. I've pointed it out, and now you turn your sights on me with more of your demeaning talk. There is no mystery here.
Much love!
Last edited:
TULIP an open discussion
- Thread starter CadyandZoe
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Much love!
The petty gossipers and whiners are always the Other Guys, the dreaded Them.
Interesting how that works, isn't it? Those Who Agree With Me are never petty gossipers or whiners, even when they are. Interesting, no?
Rather a useful discussion here, where kindly O'Darby is in rare form if I do say so:
Christian Debate Etiquette: Lovingly Disagreeing
When a 5 year old hits the baseball and runs towards 3rd base we don't hit the kid over the head with the bat and yell out "Your an idiot! Everyone knows that your supposed to run to 1st base. You moron!" Most normal people would laugh a bit, then lovingly explain to them about which direction...
www.christianityboard.com
Right, and you might know already that there is usually a basis for such a remark and it is not about agreement or disagreements either. Shallow talk without full involvement and real concern for the truth can also be considered a form of gossip as well...The petty gossipers and whiners are always the Other Guys, the dreaded Them.
Interesting how that works, isn't it? Those Who Agree With Me are never petty gossipers or whiners, even when they are. Interesting, no?
Rather a useful discussion here, where kindly O'Darby is in rare form if I do say so:
Christian Debate Etiquette: Lovingly Disagreeing
When a 5 year old hits the baseball and runs towards 3rd base we don't hit the kid over the head with the bat and yell out "Your an idiot! Everyone knows that your supposed to run to 1st base. You moron!" Most normal people would laugh a bit, then lovingly explain to them about which direction...
Well back to the topic of the thread then...
Great Day
Notice that, in Job, God did not create Job to be faithful; rather, God praised Job before Satan as being a man who truly trusted in God.
Satan was not convinced that Job was, of his own doing, faithful to God; so Satan tested God saying to God to take away His hedge of protection around Job, and allow Satan to chastise Job, and see if Job still remains faithful.
God took up Satan's challenge; but Job, of his own choice and doing, remained faithful to God.
Once again, God did not create Joseph to remain faithful, but God did foresee Joseph's faith, and so God blessed Joseph. Yes, God foresaw that Joseph would remain faithful, and so God used Joseph as a noble vessel to carry out his plans.
God forms people and nations into noble vessels for his purpose only if they first repent.
For instance: Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21.
Yes, mankind also came into being because God created mankind. We all agree with that. However, you are reading into it as if God created most people to hate and to cause them to do evil, and then punishes them for what God caused them to do.
Other, you say, God created to love.
However, the Scriptures teach us that God forms us into noble or ignoble vessels based on how we respond in His hands:
Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21;
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’
Where in "Romans 9" does it teach that God predestined men's choices?
Paul's argument is that God forms for destruction those who would reject His grace, and God forms for blessing those who repent and put their trust in God. God foreknows what will happen, and will prophesy about certain individuals as to what they will do, or what will happen with them, before they are born.
Luke 13:23-27 is one area of scripture that supports the truth that when the Spirit of God calls on you, and you will know it, this is the perfect time of salvation. It is God's perfect time for us, for his Spirit to enter us by his given Son's spirit. We are then considered elected, engaged to matrimony with Christ, in God's Kingdom.
It is the Spirit that calls to our heart for salvation and never from us to God. We might call out, although this is most probably not in God's time.
This 'Spirit call' and time of calling is usually the time and only time when we can make a heartfelt decision for his Spirit to enter our lives that usually is already based on a longer drawn our positive decision that weighed heavily on our heart already, over time. And God already caused this decision to be made without our conscious knowledge of it anyway.
This is what is meant by us making every effort to enter through the narrow gate. It is based on God's calling and our reaffirmation that we wanted to be saved through the path and gate of Christ. And now the Spirit goes into action and causes it to happen with our open cooperation.
Now if someone wants to call this, we made a clear and decisive decision for Christ by our own 'free' will, then have at it. It was not that way at all however.
So when the man of the house closes the door on us, and we arrive late, we missed the glorious call of salvation, when the this door was still open. It is now too late...we will not be able to then enter...as scripture says. And then in desperation or such actions, we will try to enter through other means, and not through the narrow true gate, that God provided to us for true salvation.
(Luk 13:23) And one said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said to them:
(Luk 13:24) Strive to enter in by the narrow door. For I say to you, many shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luk 13:25) When the master of the house is risen and has shut the door, and you begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us!- he shall answer and say to you: I do not know who you are.
(Luk 13:26) Then shall you begin to say: We did eat and drink in your presence, and you did teach in our streets.
(Luk 13:27) And he shall say: I tell you, I do not know from where you are. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.
And this is why there will only be a 'few' who are saved, in each generation, because most 'interested' and/or love the idea of salvation and eternal life will still attempt to make their own timetable, their own opportunity and timing and place to meet God for their salvation, using their own so-called 'free' will.
It is the Spirit that calls to our heart for salvation and never from us to God. We might call out, although this is most probably not in God's time.
This 'Spirit call' and time of calling is usually the time and only time when we can make a heartfelt decision for his Spirit to enter our lives that usually is already based on a longer drawn our positive decision that weighed heavily on our heart already, over time. And God already caused this decision to be made without our conscious knowledge of it anyway.
This is what is meant by us making every effort to enter through the narrow gate. It is based on God's calling and our reaffirmation that we wanted to be saved through the path and gate of Christ. And now the Spirit goes into action and causes it to happen with our open cooperation.
Now if someone wants to call this, we made a clear and decisive decision for Christ by our own 'free' will, then have at it. It was not that way at all however.
So when the man of the house closes the door on us, and we arrive late, we missed the glorious call of salvation, when the this door was still open. It is now too late...we will not be able to then enter...as scripture says. And then in desperation or such actions, we will try to enter through other means, and not through the narrow true gate, that God provided to us for true salvation.
(Luk 13:23) And one said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said to them:
(Luk 13:24) Strive to enter in by the narrow door. For I say to you, many shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luk 13:25) When the master of the house is risen and has shut the door, and you begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us!- he shall answer and say to you: I do not know who you are.
(Luk 13:26) Then shall you begin to say: We did eat and drink in your presence, and you did teach in our streets.
(Luk 13:27) And he shall say: I tell you, I do not know from where you are. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.
And this is why there will only be a 'few' who are saved, in each generation, because most 'interested' and/or love the idea of salvation and eternal life will still attempt to make their own timetable, their own opportunity and timing and place to meet God for their salvation, using their own so-called 'free' will.
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
That's what satan was saying!
the calvinists always say what the devil is saying. Weird
The point is that God took responsibility for what Satan did.
You seem to have missed the fact that Joseph assigns two intentions to the actions of his brothers: 1) his brothers and 2) God. What his brothers intended for evil, God intended for Good.
Nothing in the text suggests what God foresaw except for a famine. Let's not read our ideas into the text.
No, God creates people repenting.
What is wrong with punishing evil people?
No, that is not what God is saying in Jeremiah 18. God is saying that, just as the potter has the right to remake a spoiled pot, he has the right, as the creator, to remake a rebellious nation of Israel to his liking. There is nothing in the passage to suggest that repentance is the prerequisite for God's action to "make" Israel again. In fact, God reveals elsewhere that when he decides to remake Israel, He, Himself will put his spirit in them, circumcise their hearts, and cleanse them of all their evil.
Romans 9:6-18
In that passage, Paul proves that God is responsible for the actions of both Jacob and Esau. Then he asks whether it is unjust for God to blame these boys for decisions that God ordained. Paul argues that God is not unjust because God is a creator.
Yes, God forms vessels to serve his purpose. But NO, this has nothing at all to do with foreknowledge. Paul isn't describing the act of foreknowledge, he is describing the act of creation.
No, the point is that you are in error. Job was faithful because he chose to be faithful.
Regarding Satan, you are again in error. God did not cause Satan to test God; rather, God allowed Satan to chastise Job to show Satan that mankind can and will trust in God, even if God takes away his protection of them.
Notice the synergism. What Josephs brothers intended for evil, God - who foreknows all that is going to take place - intended to use the evil that the brother intended to bring about good.
Nothing is read into the context. Starting at Romans 1, mankind is preparing destruction upon themselves for refusing God's grace. Therefore, God forms these evil people for the destruction they deserved by their own refusal of God.
Once again God forms people to be vessels for noble or ignoble use, or for blessing or destruction, based on how the people respond in His hands:
Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’
Show me the Scriptures that teach what you say.
God commands all people everywhere to repent, which means that God is placing the responsibility on all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.
Acts 20:20-21 (NIV) 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance [change of mind and purpose] and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
The command is on the sinner to repent.
What is wrong is that, according to Calvinism, God created them to be evil, including predetermining their every evil thought and action. God did it all, and every human being is a victim of what God already created each one of them for, and caused them to do every evil act according to what God already planned that they should do.
That makes God 100% responsible for all the sins of the world, and human beings are victims of God's plans, according to Calvinism.
You are showing by your reply that you have absolutely no respect for God and His Word.
No pot was made yet; rather, the clay itself was marred in his hands.
God will form the clay for salvation if the clay repents, but if not, God will form them for destruction.
Jeremiah 18:1-12 (WEB) The word which came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear my words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and behold, he was making something on the wheels. 4 When the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then Yahweh’s word came to me, saying, 6 “House of Israel, can’t I do with you as this potter?” says Yahweh. “Behold, as the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, house of Israel. 7 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; 8 if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them. 9 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit them.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone {{{return from his evil way now}}}, and amend your ways and your doings.”’
2 Timothy 2:19-22 (EWEB) However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Read the context from which Paul is quoting from.
Romans 9:6-18
6 But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel that are of Israel
Note: Only by the Faith of Abraham is a person a true Israelite [Romans 4:16].
Romans 4:16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.
7 Neither, because they are Abraham’s offspring, are they all children. But, “your offspring will be accounted as from Isaac.”[Genesis 21:12]
Note: God promised Abraham that, through Isaac the promise would come. That does not mean God created Isaac for that purpose.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as heirs. 9 For this is a word of promise, “At the appointed time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” [Genesis 18:10,14] 10 Not only so, but Rebekah also conceived by one, by our father Isaac. 11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The elder will serve the younger.” [Genesis 25:23] 13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [Malachi 1:2-3]
Note: God prophesied regarding Jacob, and also Esau. But that does not mean God created them to be the way they were.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! 15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [Exodus 33:19]
Note: Regarding salvation, God desires to have mercy on all. [Romans 11:32].
Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [Exodus 9:16] 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
Note: God searches the heart and knows our intentions, even before they are done, even hour prayers (Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:4-7; 1 Corinthians 11:15; Hebrews 10:29; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; 20:16).
If God searches our hearts and intentions means that God determines His plans based on what he reads in our hearts. As I quoted earlier, God forms the vessels for noble or ignoble use based on whether we repent or not.
Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21 - both of which I quoted for you in this post.
If God searches the hearts, that means God is acting upon foreknowledge.
(Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:4-7; 1 Corinthians 11:15; Hebrews 10:29; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; 20:16).
Okay. But my point centered on God, not Job.
If someone allows a behavior, they take responsibility for it. God had a chance to stop Satan, but he didn't. Therefore God is responsible.
Again, one act -- two intentions.
No. Paul says nothing about how people respond.
It doesn't follow from the fact that God commands people to repent, that he doesn't create them repenting.
What is wrong with that?
That's what God does. He creates.
Right. What is wrong with that?
I have respect for God's word. I am simply challenging the philosophical assumptions you bring to God's word. God is the author and creator of everything that exists.
Paul states that it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs. Given this is true, then your and my free will has nothing to do with it. Paul just said so.
Your view is untenable because it leads to a logical contradiction. Once God looks down through time to see what you might do, your decision is fixed and you can't change it. You have no choice. If God's foreknowledge works the way you say it does, then you have no free will at all.
setst777 said: No, the point is that you are in error. Job was faithful because he chose to be faithful.
When you say, "Okay," you are already admitting that God does not fore-CAUSE humans to do good or evil; rather, each person does evil or good by their own free will.
God was not created; rather God created Job, but as you can see, God did not cause Job to do good; rather, God commended Job for Jobs own faithfulness when talking with Satan.
You again show Calvinism in false. In Calvinism, God is not “allowing” a behavior, as if God foresaw it; rather, God is for-CAUSING their behavior. Notice that God is not for-CAUSING Job’s behavior, nor is God for-CAUSING Satan’s behavior. They both are acting on their own, and God is dialoguing with Satan.
setst777 said: Notice the synergism. What Josephs brothers intended for evil, God - who foreknows all that is going to take place - intended to use the evil that the brother intended to bring about good.
Where do you see only one act? Did not Joseph's brothers "intend" and "act" when they put Joseph in a pit?
What the brothers intended for evil, God intended for good. That is what the Passages states.
God worked through circumstances to bring about good from that which God already foreknew was to take place.
setst777 said: Once again God forms people to be vessels for noble or ignoble use, or for blessing or destruction, based on how the people themselves respond in His hands, just as Job also responded in faith.
You are ignoring what God says through Jeremiah. In the analogy, the clay itself was marred, which God interprets as "doing evil." God forms the clay into a vessel for blessing or punishment based on their response in his hands. Synergism: God's actions on the Israelites, whether for blessing or punishment was dependent on whether they repented of their evil.
God is giving the Jews a choice, either to continue on their course and God would punish them (form for ignoble purpose) or to turn from their evil ways and be blessed (formed for noble purpose).
Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21
It follows because God never stated that he created anyone to repent. God does not cause anyone to do evil.
James 1:13 (WEB) Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
You already agreed (regarding Job) that God does not fore-CAUSE humans to do good or evil, rather, they act by their own free choice, which God commended Job for doing. Now you are disagreeing with yourself.
setst777 said: What is wrong is that, according to Calvinism, God created them to be evil, including predetermining their every evil thought and action.
Thankfully, that is not the God of the Bible.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’
God is leaving the choice completely up to each individual, although God is patient, leading us to repentance.
Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“
Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, caused, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.
I am challenging yours.
When you say, "Okay," you are already admitting that God does not fore-CAUSE humans to do good or evil; rather, each person does evil or good by their own free will.
God was not created; rather God created Job, but as you can see, God did not cause Job to do good; rather, God commended Job for Jobs own faithfulness when talking with Satan.
You again show Calvinism in false. In Calvinism, God is not “allowing” a behavior, as if God foresaw it; rather, God is for-CAUSING their behavior. Notice that God is not for-CAUSING Job’s behavior, nor is God for-CAUSING Satan’s behavior. They both are acting on their own, and God is dialoguing with Satan.
setst777 said: Notice the synergism. What Josephs brothers intended for evil, God - who foreknows all that is going to take place - intended to use the evil that the brother intended to bring about good.
Where do you see only one act? Did not Joseph's brothers "intend" and "act" when they put Joseph in a pit?
What the brothers intended for evil, God intended for good. That is what the Passages states.
God worked through circumstances to bring about good from that which God already foreknew was to take place.
setst777 said: Once again God forms people to be vessels for noble or ignoble use, or for blessing or destruction, based on how the people themselves respond in His hands, just as Job also responded in faith.
You are ignoring what God says through Jeremiah. In the analogy, the clay itself was marred, which God interprets as "doing evil." God forms the clay into a vessel for blessing or punishment based on their response in his hands. Synergism: God's actions on the Israelites, whether for blessing or punishment was dependent on whether they repented of their evil.
God is giving the Jews a choice, either to continue on their course and God would punish them (form for ignoble purpose) or to turn from their evil ways and be blessed (formed for noble purpose).
Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21
It follows because God never stated that he created anyone to repent. God does not cause anyone to do evil.
James 1:13 (WEB) Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
You already agreed (regarding Job) that God does not fore-CAUSE humans to do good or evil, rather, they act by their own free choice, which God commended Job for doing. Now you are disagreeing with yourself.
setst777 said: What is wrong is that, according to Calvinism, God created them to be evil, including predetermining their every evil thought and action.
Thankfully, that is not the God of the Bible.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’
God is leaving the choice completely up to each individual, although God is patient, leading us to repentance.
Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“
Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, caused, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.
I am challenging yours.
Last edited:
Regarding God's plans, God will indeed have mercy on all those who repent, for God will have mercy on whom he wills to have mercy. In his mercy, God's kind intention is to save all those who believe (John 3:16).
1 Corinthians 1:21 (EWEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.
No Passage teaches that God saves those whom God caused to believe.
In fact, the only sinners who pass out of death into life are sinners who believe.
John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Powerful statement but I reject the veracity of it.
"Allow" implies one is responsible for the actions of another. This is invalid with certain hierarchical exceptions.
When She's Not Your BFF
. ● Eph 5:25-27 . . Husbands love your wives The Greek verb translated "love" in that passage is from agapao (ag-ap-ah'-o) which is an easy kind of love to practice because it's more about benevolence than affection. Agapao-- unlike phileo (fil-eh'-o) --doesn't require that we like people or be...
www.christianityboard.com
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.
While, given your theological perspective, one can understand the story that way. The text of Job does not rule out my theological perspective.
My point earlier is self-evident and doesn't rely on Calvinism. If a man allows another man to do wrong, that man is just as culpable for the evil as the second man. Look at the account of Job again.
Job 2:3:6
The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.” Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.” So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”
In criminal law, incitement is the encouragement of another person to commit a crime. Here we see the Lord and Satan conspiring together to test the integrity of Job. During this conversation, the Lord freely admits that Satan incited the Lord against Job -- a man he praised earlier. Satan is the agent of Job's injury, but the Lord is a coconspirator. The Lord approved of Job's injury and gave Satan permission to injure Job again. The Lord is responsible for Job's injury because, if he so chose, he had the authority and the means to stop Satan. Perhaps this is true of Calvinism I don't know. I don't think Calvin believed in "fore-causation" as you describe it. The concept of "fore-causation" places God on our level of existence. I don't know if Calvin believed that God was just another creature like us or not. I would give him the benefit of the doubt though.
The Bible doesn't teach the concept of "fore-causation", it teaches the concept of "fore-ordination."
Let's go back to the movie example. Imagine someone made a movie about Job's experience. In this case, while it can be said that the director didn't cause Satan to injure Job, once the injury is recorded on film, it becomes predetermined within the context of the movie. From the audience's perspective, they experience each scene as if it is happening in real-time. However, the action took place earlier, and now that it is recorded on film, it cannot happen any other way.
Yes. Here we see one act -- being thrown into a pit -- with two objectives. The goal of Joseph's brothers was to get rid of Joseph. The goal of God was to save Egypt from famine and through this to glorify his name.
One act -- two objectives -- two agents: 1) a human agent, and 2) a divine agent.
Your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the facts. Joseph is not suggesting that God simply "fixed" a problem that he knew would arise. Rather, Joseph is saying that God actually orchestrated the problem in the first place. In fact, the Lord was the divine agent behind Joseph's entire story, which was just a mini-plot in a much larger story that God had orchestrated. This larger story was designed to teach Joseph's brothers some important lessons that would serve them well in their role as the patriarchs of Israel.
Who do you think caused the famine in the first place?
Of course I am ignoring what God said to Jeremiah. It doesn't follow that a metaphor must make the exact same point each time it appears. In the book of Jeremiah, the Lord employs a potter metaphor to make one point, while Paul, in his letter to the Romans, also uses a potter metaphor to make an entirely different point. If I want to understand Paul's point, I would do well to avoid placing Jeremiah over Paul as an overlay. Understand Paul from within the context of his argument.
Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning earlier when I said that "God creates them repenting." In my view, "creation" and "causation" are two different things, especially as it pertains to God's creative action.
"Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."
Moreover, God doesn't cause or "fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." Everything that comes into being is spoken into existence by the creator.
I believe you mean to express your thankfulness that God is not a person who "fore-causes" evil. I get that. And I don't believe Calvin taught "fore-causation" so you are bumping up against a fiction. I agree with your effort to maintain the righteousness and holiness of God. And I agree that God does not "fore-cause" anything. But predestination is not necessarily fore-causation. There is another way that God can foreordain something without "fore-causing" it.
As we saw earlier, in the case of a movie, the plot is foreordained even though the characters act voluntarily within the context of the story. Actors bring a story to life by following a script. The script provides motivations and intentions for each character, allowing the audience to understand their actions. Therefore, the scriptwriter not only creates the characters but also the story's setting, time and location. The author is responsible for everything that is seen on the screen and all that happens in the hearts of the characters. The process is not "fore-causation"; the process is "foreordination."
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.
So, how does God "fix" things? You argue that God foreknew that Joseph's brothers would toss him into the pit. Okay. What did God do about it? In your view, nothing. God didn't rescue Joseph from the pit. Those in the caravan "rescued" Joseph voluntarily of their own free will. Did God put Joseph in jail with a food taster? In your view, no. The jailer acted voluntarily. So did the food taster and Potiphar and Potiphar's wife. Every single event in the story can be seen in terms of human choice. There is NOTHING in the story to suggest that God "fixed" anything. He may have had foreknowledge of events. But according to you, God didn't lift a finger to help Joseph anywhere along the way.
You see the problem?
Remember what our Apostle Paul wrote, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Therefore, in order for God to work my life to the good, he has to cause everything in my life to work for the good. He has to cause everyone around me to work toward the good. The only way that Paul's word is true is if God works "ALL THINGS" to the good. Everything that happens along the way, whether good or bad, is being orchestrated "TO THE GOOD."
In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.
God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.
What did we learn from Jesus' encounter with those he healed? What is easier for Jesus? To forgive or to open blind eyes?
I left this thread, yet this question got my attention.
What does this question even mean, I’m baffled?..xxx
Just a guess, did they have to truly repent?
Did they have to believe, then he opened their eyes?xx
Okay, but inside the context of Job?Powerful statement but I reject the veracity of it.
"Allow" implies one is responsible for the actions of another. This is invalid with certain hierarchical exceptions.
When She's Not Your BFF
. ● Eph 5:25-27 . . Husbands love your wives The Greek verb translated "love" in that passage is from agapao (ag-ap-ah'-o) which is an easy kind of love to practice because it's more about benevolence than affection. Agapao-- unlike phileo (fil-eh'-o) --doesn't require that we like people or be...
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No question that God allows evil AND does evil and commands evil (destruction).
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jonah 3:10 KJV
Making general statements gives me cause to pause. From a general perspective, the First Cause is responsible for all that follows. More specifically however, there is rebellion against the King and it is dubious to claim the King is responsible for the actions of those in rebellion, yes?
Similar threads
