The 144,000 before God at the end.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Deliver you from accusation and a spirit of haughtiness.
If you are going to present yourself as spiritual and superior, then stop changing a book that it is forbidden to change.
Are you aware of the warning against changing revelation??????
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Some here are insisting that the 144k is actually the church.
Some insist the 144k are actually the gentile bride and that bride is "FIRSTFRUITS"
Lets pretend they are correct.
That means the church is in heaven during the trib ( arrived at by transposing the church into the 144k in rev 14)
So they have a mid trib rapture of the church in rev 14.
It is tedious because the very concept of FIRSTFRUITS is from "harvest".
So lets continue to play this theory out.
Rev 14: 14 has another harvest by Jesus sitting on a cloud..
So, this theory of "no Jews" , now has a second harvest of gentile believers after the 144k.
See the dilemma?
It just becomes a milkshake of verses.
Firstfruits is completely voided since they have invented the "fact" that every harvest is firstrfruits.
That theory has God himself not understanding what FIRSTFRUITS is, and not understanding the church is not exclusively virgin men that are not defiled with women.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
now you pretend you are erroneously changing 144k jewish men, into some "spiritual doctrinal invention", of an invented gentile church REFRAME job ,by being full of faith and obedience?????
Revelation 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
John defines the firstfruits in Revelation 14:4 as those who were redeemed from among men.
The redeemed are the Church.
The Church is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who have been saved by grace though faith in Christ.
What's the dilemma?
So you believe that ethnicity replaces faith and obedience i.e. that God is a racist.
Are faith and obedience "spiritual doctrinal invention"?
TribulationSigns
Active Member
LOL.
It's true, you make it up.
The problem is your mathematic gymnastics isn't biblical, to begin with anyway.
No man can count or number the multitude. Only that the 144,000 is symbolically fullness of congregation from the old and New testament...thus the great multitude as a result. Exact how many people in 144,000, we don't know. It is a large crowd. Not 144,000 men. Simple as that.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
The dilemma is that they do not like hearing this because it proved their doctrine on 144,000 wrong.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
There are some ethnic Jews "IN CHRIST" as part of Covenant Israel.
Of course. Some of them are.
Yes. It is spiritual 12 tribes of the children of Israel "IN CHRIST".
I did not say that. False witness.
No. The original 12 Old Testament tribes is part of the larger spiritual 12 tribes of Israel. The problem is that you believe the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 is still the same original 12 tribes. Not true.
The Bible already defined the number 2. Can you show us the Scripture if you know what you are talking about. Show me.
Weak argument.
The blameless 144000 in Rev 14 is the chosen of God, the Church for whom Christ Loved and gave Himself for, observe Rev 14:1-5
Now look at the Chosen in Christ and Gods design for them Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Now the without fault in Rev 14 5 is one and the same as the without blame in Eph 1:4
Also the same word is used of the Church who is redeemed by the death of Christ Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish or blame
And think about, who else is more worthy to follow the Lamb wherever He goes moreso than the Bride of His Love ?
See Gods Chosen Israel and His Church are one and the same !
Now look at the Chosen in Christ and Gods design for them Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Now the without fault in Rev 14 5 is one and the same as the without blame in Eph 1:4
Also the same word is used of the Church who is redeemed by the death of Christ Eph 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish or blame
And think about, who else is more worthy to follow the Lamb wherever He goes moreso than the Bride of His Love ?
See Gods Chosen Israel and His Church are one and the same !
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Your argument is pure supposition
When one spiritualizes a bible dynamic, especially in a book that changing things is forbidden, you better make sure you have traction.
The entire reason you and others need 144k to NOT BE 144k is your bogus doctrine PROHIBITS IT.
The reason "men" can NOT BE "men" is you need it to not be.
The reason " tribes" is turned into "church" is because in your mind you can actually get that bizarre with it WITH NO RED FLAGS.
"harvest" is just omitted by turning "FIRSTFRUITS" into basically nothing.
Psssst..the church is NOT "firstfruits"
The FIRSTFRUITS of rev 14 is Jews.
You are completely unaware that the time of the gentiles is completed and God after the bride is gathered has turned his focus on the covenant Jew, or the wife gone awhoring.
You know..as in TRIBES...JEWISH TRIBES ,FROM ETHNIC JEWS.
UH...HELLO......TRIBES LISTED WITH SPECIFIC NUMBERS.
You and others dare to cancel Gods word because you went down some strange chosen path to pretend the covenant Jew is not in Gods plan.
You really chose a low path sir.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
TribulationSigns
Active Member
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TribulationSigns
Active Member
Relax. You need take a deep breath.
Gentiles can be grafted into spiritual tribes of Israel (which is a covensnt tree Israel) because they are spiritual Jews in Christ. The 144,000 is much larger than your Jewish fable.
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John says that the firstfruits of Revelation 14 are the redeemed.
You say that "The FIRSTFRUITS of rev 14 is Jews."
Whom to believe?
1. John
2. You
Need a hint?
Replacement biology racially elevates Jews above the Church of the redeemed in Christ.
Beyond bizarre.
The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).
Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.
While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.
Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)
No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
On these two points we agree, no man can number the multitude and nowhere is the number 144,000 explicitly defined as the multitude.
You then proceed to use counting to show how we can know that the 144,000 spiritually represents the multitude.
Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.
Example …
It’s time to go to bed.
Why?
Because it’s your bedtime.
The circular reasoning of our conversation …
TS) The 144,000 are the multitude.
GB) But why are the 144,000 the multitude?
TS) Because spirituality 12 X 12 X 1,000 = 144,000.
GB) But the multitude can’t be counted.
TS) God gave us the number 144,000, that’s how we know it’s the multitude.
GB) But God didn’t say the 144,000 were the multitude.
TS) I know, we have to spiritually count the number 144,000 which shows they are the multitude.
Rinse and repeat.
Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
I thought Ephraim was the fullness of the Gentiles. If Ephraim is excluded from the 144,000 then the 144,000 only represents old covenant believers, which would agree with why they are numbered but the multitude which includes all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues can’t be numbered.
What Scripture applies fullness of the Gentiles to Ephraim?
Yes, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 represent old covenant believers, i.e. the OT "Church" of those faithful and obedient to God and His OT covenant, within the named tribes. That included both faithful obedient Jews and faithful obedient Gentiles (Genesis 17:12 et al).
The 144,000 of Revelation 14 represent the NT Church of those faithful and obedient to God and His Son and their New Covenant, within the world.
There are no tribal references in Revelation 14 because, as you've affirmed, the NT Church "includes all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues".
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