The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

Are you personally part of the general assembly and Church of the first born? Or are you personally the entire assembly and entire Church of the first born?


Because nobody walks around claiming they are the entire body of Christ, that would violate 1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

For some eschatological reason you need the 144,000 to be the entire body through out all of time. But by making that claim you are asserting that man can in some way number the great multitude which violates Revelation 7:9.

Just as some people will argue that they can know the very day and hour in Matthew 24:36 so too you are arguing against the scriptures themselves. Again, nobody is arguing that the 144,000 are not saved, just that they aren’t the entire body of Christ.

I dont know what you talking about, it isnt scripture

 

[grafted branch]

I dont know what you talking about, it isnt scripture

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[brightfame52]

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

okay and ? Did I say a man can number that great multitude ? If I did please show us.

 

[TribulationSigns]

okay and ? Did I say a man can number that great multitude ? If I did please show us.

You didn’t.

I agreed that no man could number the actual head count of great multitudes but John did hear the spiritual number that represents the great multitudes which he saw. Indeed.

One same group. Not two groups.

 

[grafted branch]

okay and ? Did I say a man can number that great multitude ? If I did please show us.

Here is what you said in post #2273 …

The Church is the 144 000 Its Joint Heirs with Christ Her Head Rom 8 23,17

How did you come to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting? Was it a guess?

Your argument seems to be that since John heard the number 144,000 and it wasn’t a number that he counted, therefore we can come to the conclusion that it represents the entire Church. The flaw in that argument is that Revelation 7 doesn’t specify exactly who the 144,000 are, only that it’s 12,000 from each tribe and it was a number he heard that were sealed. Since 12 X 12,000 = 144,000 is math which involves counting, that man has the ability to do, we know the 144,000 can’t be the multitude. Any attempt to spiritually connect 144,000 with the multitude would also have to involve counting which violates the Revelation 7:9 attribute of “no man could number”.

Just accept the fact that no man can number them. You can use phrases like “sands of the seas” or “stars in the sky” to describe the multitude because they aren’t numbers.

Proving the 144,000 are saved doesn’t prove they are the entire Church. Using the spiritual meaning of the number 144,000 involves counting that number and will only prove you can’t be right because no man can number the multitude.

So tell us, how did you arrive at the idea that the 144,000 are the Church?

 

[brightfame52]

Here is what you said in post #2273 …


How did you come to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting? Was it a guess?

Your argument seems to be that since John heard the number 144,000 and it wasn’t a number that he counted, therefore we can come to the conclusion that it represents the entire Church. The flaw in that argument is that Revelation 7 doesn’t specify exactly who the 144,000 are, only that it’s 12,000 from each tribe and it was a number he heard that were sealed. Since 12 X 12,000 = 144,000 is math which involves counting, that man has the ability to do, we know the 144,000 can’t be the multitude. Any attempt to spiritually connect 144,000 with the multitude would also have to involve counting which violates the Revelation 7:9 attribute of “no man could number”.

Just accept the fact that no man can number them. You can use phrases like “sands of the seas” or “stars in the sky” to describe the multitude because they aren’t numbers.

Proving the 144,000 are saved doesn’t prove they are the entire Church. Using the spiritual meaning of the number 144,000 involves counting that number and will only prove you can’t be right because no man can number the multitude.

So tell us, how did you arrive at the idea that the 144,000 are the Church?

So you made a false accusation. I never said a man can count how many are in the multitude no man can number. When folk resort to that tactic, I will resign from further discussion. I have explained my view of the 144 000 previously. Now I will give you the opportunity to repent of that or consider our discussion ended.

 

[grafted branch]

I have explained my view of the 144 000 previously.

No you haven’t, unless your view has no explanation of why the number 144,000 is symbolic.

It appears to me that you know if you give the reason 144,000 is symbolic then you also give the reason it can be numbered by man, hence your avoiding questions about how you arrived at your conclusion of the Church being the 144,000.

Now I will give you the opportunity to repent of that or consider our discussion ended.

I asked how you came to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting and your response is that I made a false accusation and I need to repent? I asked this question because I can’t see any other way of arriving at that conclusion but all you have to do is give an explanation to prove I’m not comprehending your view on this and I’ll concede.

 

[brightfame52]

No you haven’t, unless your view has no explanation of why the number 144,000 is symbolic.

It appears to me that you know if you give the reason 144,000 is symbolic then you also give the reason it can be numbered by man, hence your avoiding questions about how you arrived at your conclusion of the Church being the 144,000.


I asked how you came to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting and your response is that I made a false accusation and I need to repent? I asked this question because I can’t see any other way of arriving at that conclusion but all you have to do is give an explanation to prove I’m not comprehending your view on this and I’ll concede.

We are done, take care

 

[TribulationSigns]

No you haven’t, unless your view has no explanation of why the number 144,000 is symbolic.

He did. You did not like the answer.
Can you explain why the seven eyes of the lamb is symbolic? Can you explain why the woman stands over the moon, clothed with the sun, and crown of twelve stars? Can you explain why the number seven for seven candlesticks? Why the number two for two witnesses?

The answer is you can is IF you allow God's Word to interpret itself. BEcause you kept asking us why the number 144,000 is symbolic is because you refuse to recognize it as symbolic when it actually applies to the great multitudes. This is how God assigned the number to His People. Sadly, you are brainwashed to believe that the 144,000 and the great multitudes are two separate group of people thinking the 144,000 must be literal. Huh?!

It appears to me that you know if you give the reason 144,000 is symbolic then you also give the reason it can be numbered by man, hence your avoiding questions about how you arrived at your conclusion of the Church being the 144,000.

WE can understand the number 144,000 as symbolic referring to the great multitudes. The root numbers of 144,000 arequite obviously the number 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the Lord, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem. As it is written in Revelation 21 if you have spiritual ears to hear:

Rev 21:15-17
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence any more than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence any more than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the Middle East, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in Israel which is Christ.

Selah!

I asked how you came to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting and your response is that I made a false accusation and I need to repent? I asked this question because I can’t see any other way of arriving at that conclusion but all you have to do is give an explanation to prove I’m not comprehending your view on this and I’ll concede.

All I am saying is that you lack spiritual discernment on numbers in Revelation. These are NOT to be understood literally but symbolically pointing to something true.

 

[grafted branch]

He did. You did not like the answer.

What is the post number where he explained why the number 144,000 symbolically represents the entire Church? I know he posted several times showing that both the Church and the 144,000 have the same attributes as all believers individually have but I don’t find where he was able to show specifics of the entire body of Christ being applied to the 144,000.

WE can understand the number 144,000 as symbolic referring to the great multitudes. The root numbers of 144,000 arequite obviously the number 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the Lord, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem. As it is written in Revelation 21 if you have spiritual ears to hear:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number <705> arithmeo. That’s where we get the word arithmetic from, it means to number or count.

You just gave us a great example of how to spiritually discern numbers and in particular where arithmetic and counting is used to discern the number 144,000.

All I am saying is that you lack spiritual discernment on numbers in Revelation. These are NOT to be understood literally but symbolically pointing to something true.

What I see is you using arithmetic to spiritually number the multitude. Believers are spiritually minded and they interpret things spiritually, I’m not sure why you think no man can number the multitude yet a spiritually minded person will number them.

Wouldn’t spiritual discernment be able to recognize that there are some things we don’t have the ability to discern while being here on earth?



Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

What is the post number where he explained why the number 144,000 symbolically represents the entire Church? I know he posted several times showing that both the Church and the 144,000 have the same attributes as all believers individually have but I don’t find where he was able to show specifics of the entire body of Christ being applied to the 144,000.

You are playing games here. He did explain himself. I witnessed it. I even explained it myself too. You don't want to hear it. Sad.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You are natural with a carnal mind thinking that 144,000 has to be a literal headcount and apart from a great multitude. And I am spiritually discerned that can explain what the number means and who the great multitude are.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number <705> arithmeo. That’s where we get the word arithmetic from, it means to number or count.

Duh! No one here said that we could count the actual number of the great multitude. It will be a very large crowd... like the stars or the sands.

You just gave us a great example of how to spiritually discern numbers and in particular where arithmetic and counting is used to discern the number 144,000.

Really dumb. We said that we understood what the number (144,000) ITSELF represents symbolically. FULLNESS of ISRAEL with all Elect from the Old and New Testament! That it! This is what John heard and wrote down. And then John saw exactly who they are that we will also witness, the innumerable company of congregation Israel!

Whats the matter with you?

What I see is you using arithmetic to spiritually number the multitude. Believers are spiritually minded and they interpret things spiritually, I’m not sure why you think no man can number the multitude yet a spiritually minded person will number them.

Get some sleep early, I think you need it.

 

[grafted branch]

You are playing games here. He did explain himself. I witnessed it. I even explained it myself too. You don't want to hear it. Sad.

How can I be the one playing games when I’m asking for the post number and you can’t give it? I have looked back several times, I don’t see it. If there is a post that shows it you should be able to present what post number it is.

I see where you are mathematically breaking down the number 144,000 to arrive at it being the Church but nowhere do you show where it explicitly says they are the Church. You have to count in order to force your interpretation.

You are natural with a carnal mind thinking that 144,000 has to be a literal headcount and apart from a great multitude. And I am spiritually discerned that can explain what the number means and who the great multitude are.

I only said it’s possible that they are literally 144,000 but I’m not dogmatic about it because I see the spiritual aspect of the number 144,000.

Claiming you can spiritually number the multitude as 144,000 is a red flag for me, as I have stated I see Revelation 7:9 meaning no man can count the multitude literally or spiritually.

John 14:6 says no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Following your logic a spiritually minded person can come to the Father without Jesus because this verse only means literally coming to the Father, just like Revelation 7:9 only means literally counting.

This is dangerous thinking!

Really dumb. We said that we understood what the number (144,000) ITSELF represents symbolically. FULLNESS of ISRAEL with all Elect from the Old and New Testament! That it! This is what John heard and wrote down. And then John saw exactly who they are that we will also witness, the innumerable company of congregation Israel!

Whats the matter with you?

Yea, and the only way you come to that conclusion is to mathematically break down that number to force it to mean the entire Church. Spiritual discernment is needed, to understand that no man can number the multitude spiritually or otherwise.

 

[TribulationSigns]

How can I be the one playing games when I’m asking for the post number and you can’t give it?

Me?! No, it was Brightframe52 you asked and he DID.

I have looked back several times, I don’t see it.

LOL!!!!

If there is a post that shows it you should be able to present what post number it is.

He did. Denial is your middle name.

I see where you are mathematically breaking down the number 144,000 to arrive at it being the Church

Of course!

but nowhere do you show where it explicitly says they are the Church.

Sigh... The number is symbolic and represents Covenant Israel make up of Church from the Old and New Testament. Just because it does not say "church", you refuse to believe that 144,000 is the church? Lame.

You have to count in order to force your interpretation.

Really? John has explained how we understand the number in Revelation 21 that I quoted. I did not force it. It is the Word of God telling us who the 144,000 really are!

I only said it’s possible that they are literally 144,000

And you aren't right about it.

but I’m not dogmatic about it because I see the spiritual aspect of the number 144,000.

uh-uh.

Claiming you can spiritually number the multitude as 144,000 is a red flag for me, as I have stated I see Revelation 7:9 meaning no man can count the multitude literally or spiritually.

So you insisted that no man can count the great multitudes because we can't count them literally or spiritually?

John 14:6 says no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Following your logic a spiritually minded person can come to the Father without Jesus because this verse only means literally coming to the Father, just like Revelation 7:9 only means literally counting.

This is dangerous thinking!

Say someone who needs some sleep as well!

Yea, and the only way you come to that conclusion is to mathematically break down that number to force it to mean the entire Church.

Because God said so. I have quoted you with verses in Revelation 21. You don't like it.

 

[grafted branch]

Because God said so. I have quoted you with verses in Revelation 21. You don't like it.

Here’s what you about Revelation 21 …

Rev 21:15-17
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence any more than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence any more than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the Middle East, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in Israel which is Christ.

If we start out with knowing what results we want we can make the numbers represent anything we want. For example …

In Revelation 7:1 the 4 angels are standing on the 4 corners of the earth holding the 4 winds, so we divide 144,000 by 4 = 36,000. Since these are also the 2 witnesses we divide 36,000 by 2 = 18,000. And since this all takes place in the millennium we divide 18,000 by 1,000 = 18. This is also when Jesus sits on David’s throne and in 2 Samuel 23:39 David’s mighty warriors were 37 in all, so we multiply 18 by 37 = 666.

I just proved, using scripture, that the 144,000 are really 666. The problem is I just made this up and it’s not based on anything other than my original idea that I was going to make the 144,000 be 666. The reality is that I could’ve made 144,000 into almost any other number I wanted to.

I think it time to just accept Revelation 7:9 for what it says, no man can number the multitude.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Church is the 144 000 Its Joint Heirs with Christ Her Head Rom 8 23,17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

144k and "firstfruits" are both ethnic Jews.
Stop reframing Gods word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

He did. You did not like the answer.
Can you explain why the seven eyes of the lamb is symbolic? Can you explain why the woman stands over the moon, clothed with the sun, and crown of twelve stars? Can you explain why the number seven for seven candlesticks? Why the number two for two witnesses?

The answer is you can is IF you allow God's Word to interpret itself. BEcause you kept asking us why the number 144,000 is symbolic is because you refuse to recognize it as symbolic when it actually applies to the great multitudes. This is how God assigned the number to His People. Sadly, you are brainwashed to believe that the 144,000 and the great multitudes are two separate group of people thinking the 144,000 must be literal. Huh?!


WE can understand the number 144,000 as symbolic referring to the great multitudes. The root numbers of 144,000 arequite obviously the number 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the Lord, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem. As it is written in Revelation 21 if you have spiritual ears to hear:

Rev 21:15-17
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence any more than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence any more than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the Middle East, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in Israel which is Christ.

Selah!



All I am saying is that you lack spiritual discernment on numbers in Revelation. These are NOT to be understood literally but symbolically pointing to something true.

Interesting that the description is explicit, but you say it can not possibly be ethnic Jews.
When in fact it says they are.
But you don't stop there .
You say the church is celebrate and all us gentiles are of the 12 tribes.
Then you go on to say the church is only men.
144k MEN
THE TRUTH is that they are in fact ethnic Jewish men taken from the 12 JEWISH tribes.
Numbered 2 distinct ways to AUTHENTICATE their number.
But you say that is God not knowing he could of said the "Church".
In NO WAY is that plausible.
It is changing a book God warned about changing

 

[grafted branch]

Interesting that the description is explicit, but you say it can not possibly be ethnic Jews.
When in fact it says they are.
But you don't stop there .
You say the church is celebrate and all us gentiles are of the 12 tribes.
Then you go on to say the church is only men.
144k MEN
THE TRUTH is that they are in fact ethnic Jewish men taken from the 12 JEWISH tribes.
Numbered 2 distinct ways to AUTHENTICATE their number.
But you say that is God not knowing he could of said the "Church".
In NO WAY is that plausible.
It is changing a book God warned about changing

That’s very important points you’re bringing up, no where are the new covenant believers referred to as tribes.

Maybe @TribulationSigns will let us know which tribe he is from.

 

[brightfame52]

144k and "firstfruits" are both ethnic Jews.
Stop reframing Gods word.

False and thats what you are doing. The firstfruits is Christ and His Own, they are One. The redeemed from the earth, clothed in His Righteousness and Washed in His Blood, redeemed from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[brightfame52]

Interesting that the description is explicit, but you say it can not possibly be ethnic Jews.
When in fact it says they are.
But you don't stop there .
You say the church is celebrate and all us gentiles are of the 12 tribes.
Then you go on to say the church is only men.
144k MEN
THE TRUTH is that they are in fact ethnic Jewish men taken from the 12 JEWISH tribes.
Numbered 2 distinct ways to AUTHENTICATE their number.
But you say that is God not knowing he could of said the "Church".
In NO WAY is that plausible.
It is changing a book God warned about changing

Unfortunately you are thinking according to the flesh, may God be pleased to deliver you from that snare.

 

[covenantee]

144k and "firstfruits" are both ethnic Jews.
Stop reframing Gods word.

The only ethnic Jews in the 144,000 and firstfruits are those faithful and obedient to God, His Son, and His Covenant.

The tribes were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.