The 144,000 before God at the end.

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brightfame52

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The Rev.7 chapter is about God's SEALING of His servants, and the holding of the 'four winds' so they do not blow UNTIL His servants are sealed with His seal. That... is the main subject of the Rev.7 chapter.

But the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors instead turn and twist that Rev.7 chapter to 'their' false rapture doctrine, and thus leave... the actual subject written in that chapter.

Rev 7:1-3
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying,
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
KJV

Just what is that sealing?
It's God sealing of His by The Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus (2 Colossians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30).

What's it for?
Against deception by the coming false-Messiah and his locust army at the end of this world.

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV


Because the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 are shown to John in a future time AFTER Christ's coming in His future "thousand years" reign, there's no need to think they are not 'sealed' with God's seal also and came out the "great tribulation" by washing their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, which means what? It means they went THROUGH THE TRIBULATION and through persecution, taking up their cross for Jesus, they 'overcame' through Him, and thus were 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit.
I dont see your point. Who do you think the 144000 is in Rev 7 ? Who are the servants sealed in their foreheads in Rev7 ? Do you say thats ethnic jews or no ?
 

brightfame52

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God describes their ethnicity so you are wrong. Read the words.



This is a strawman fallacy. No one said they were saved because of their ethnicity. They are saved because they have Christ. They just happen to all be from Israel. No saved Gentiles are part of the 144k. Stop making everything into symbolism.
Strawman this:

Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons.
 
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covenantee

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Racist genocidal dispensational "Christian" zionism on despicable display.

 
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Davy

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The if condition is true when Isaiah 60:20 comes to pass. In Isaiah 60:20 the sun shall no more go down and the moon does not withdraw itself. The sun and moon are not obeying the ordinances that the they are to divide the day from the night.

You have not address this matter. How can the ordinances remain before God and yet the sun and moon not obey them?
Nope, you are wrong, because the nation of Israel STILL... exists to this day. And in reality per prophecy about the ten tribes and their history, I really should say the "TWO NATIONS" of Israel was manifested when God split old Israel into two nations in Solomon's day, and even when Nebuchadnezzar and the later Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews, the ten tribes were STILL representing the other... nation of Israel in the West.

Ezek 37:19-22
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV


But of course, you have yet to realize that, since you cannot even grasp that Isaiah 60 is simply new heavens and a new earth timing that proves God's Promise in Jeremiah 31 that Israel will forever be a nation before Him.

Brethren in Christ, I am amazed at how some here will 'try' and change what God's Word says just so they can try and win an argument. That is one of the worst examples of scholarship that exists, other than plagiarism.
 

grafted branch

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Nope, you are wrong, because the nation of Israel STILL... exists to this day. And in reality per prophecy about the ten tribes and their history, I really should say the "TWO NATIONS" of Israel was manifested when God split old Israel into two nations in Solomon's day, and even when Nebuchadnezzar and the later Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews, the ten tribes were STILL representing the other... nation of Israel in the West.
That’s not what I’m arguing, I’m arguing that when new heaven new earth arrive Israel ceases to be a nation before God because the Jeremiah 31:36 promise gets fulfilled, proven by the Isaiah 60:20 statement that the sun and moon do not follow the Genesis 1:14 ordinance.

But of course, you have yet to realize that, since you cannot even grasp that Isaiah 60 is simply new heavens and a new earth timing that proves God's Promise in Jeremiah 31 that Israel will forever be a nation before Him.
So your saying that Israel will forever be a nation before God because when new heaven new earth comes Isaiah 60:20 won’t be fulfilled? You might as well just argue that new heaven new earth never will arrive because Israel must remain a nation before God.

Brethren in Christ, I am amazed at how some here will 'try' and change what God's Word says just so they can try and win an argument. That is one of the worst examples of scholarship that exists, other than plagiarism.
Me too, no doubt Isaiah 60:20 will be fulfilled and Israel will cease to be a nation before God, this all happens when new heaven new earth are realized.
 

Keraz

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The Lords fiery judgement on the Middle East:

Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe to you Ariel! Ariel, the city where David settled. The years roll on and you carry out your festivals. Yet, I shall reduce Ariel to dire straits. There will be suffering and sorrow, when I make her My fire altar.
Ariel – is a pun on the Hebrew word, ‘har’el’ = the Temple burnt offering altar. In this prophecy, it refers to Jerusalem and all the State of Israel. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:1-14, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 12:14

Isaiah 29:3-4 I will encompass you and besiege you with the visitation of My fiery judgement. You will be brought low, you will hide underground, your voice will whisper out of the earth. The survivors in Jerusalem will shelter in underground bunkers. Isaiah 31:5, Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 37:31-32
The Lord’s judgement/punishment of the nations, by fire from God’s storehouse, Deuteronomy 32:22,34-35,41-43, will be an explosion on the suns surface, Isaiah 30:26a, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

Joel 2:1-11 Sound the alarm! For the Day of the Lord’s wrath is coming. As the sun rises, a vast host will appear, the like has never been known. It advances in a devouring fire, behind is a leaping flame that leaves a desolate wasteland. Nothing can escape it, nothing can stop it and as it strikes, the earth quakes and the heavens thunder. Who can survive that dark and terrible Day?

Isaiah 29:5-8 But, your enemies will become like dust, those ruthless hordes, like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord Almighty, with earthquakes, thunder, storms and a blaze of devouring fire. All the nations warring against Mt Zion, will vanish, as a dream, like one who is hungry or thirsty; then wakes to find himself empty, so it will be with all those nations attacking Israel. Malachi 4:3

The fire judgement on the Middle East, striking ‘in an instant’, will be a Coronal Mass Ejection: a sunstrike of unprecedented magnitude and is the next prophesied event we can expect, it is the Day that will ‘come as a thief’, sudden and unexpectedly. Zechariah 3:9, Isaiah 10:17 It is quite a different event to what is described about the attack and destruction of Gog or of Armageddon, both to come later, respectively.
Psalm 83:13-18, Isaiah 34:5, Isaiah 30:25-28 & 30, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18,

The regeneration of the Middle East: Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:13-15

Isaiah 29:17-21 In a very short time, the Land will be made prosperous again. On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see and the lowly and poor will exult in the Holy One of Israel. The ruthless and evil peoples will be gone, all who practice falsehood will be cut down. Isaiah 66:12-17, Psalms 107:1-43, Jeremiah 33:12-13

Isaiah 29:22-23 Therefore, these are the words of the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, about the House of Jacob: [now: every true Christian believer] This is no time for you to be ashamed, no time to be frightened, for his descendants will praise My Name, when they see what I have done for them. They will stand in awe of the Holy God of Israel. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses condensed.

Christian Israelites, all those who kept faithful during the sudden disaster of the Sixth Seal, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in, will be gathered into the Land, ”in a very short time” after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations Ezekiel 20: 34-38, Isaiah 11:11-12, Jeremiah 30:18-24 and Revelation 7:9 shows them in Jerusalem.
 

Davy

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That’s not what I’m arguing, I’m arguing that when new heaven new earth arrive Israel ceases to be a nation before God because the Jeremiah 31:36 promise gets fulfilled, proven by the Isaiah 60:20 statement that the sun and moon do not follow the Genesis 1:14 ordinance.
And of course, your idea is not... written. Instead, just the opposite... of your idea is written. And you should read more about what I'm showing, since you reject God's direct... statements in the Jeremiah 31 chapter that the nation of Israel will never cease being a nation before Him forever.

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
KJV

Eph 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from
the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
KJV

Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging
the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
KJV



The following is future Millennial timing, when God's House will be established on earth, in the holy land, along with His River of the Waters of Life that flow out of the Millennial "sanctuary", with the Tree of Life manifested on either side of that River...

Ezek 47:12-23
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD;
This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up Mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;

16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazar-hatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.

17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.

18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.

19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.

20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you
according to the tribes of Israel.

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you
among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV


Ezekiel 48 continues with this actual layout of Christ's future Kingdom of Israel in the holy land that will be established at His future return.

Too bad that your Church has not covered this.
 

grafted branch

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And of course, your idea is not... written. Instead, just the opposite... of your idea is written. And you should read more about what I'm showing, since you reject God's direct... statements in the Jeremiah 31 chapter that the nation of Israel will never cease being a nation before Him forever.

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
KJV

Eph 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from
the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
KJV

Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging
the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
KJV



The following is future Millennial timing, when God's House will be established on earth, in the holy land, along with His River of the Waters of Life that flow out of the Millennial "sanctuary", with the Tree of Life manifested on either side of that River...

Ezek 47:12-23
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months,
because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD;
This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up Mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;

16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazar-hatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.

17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.

18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.

19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.

20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you
according to the tribes of Israel.

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV


Ezekiel 48 continues with this actual layout of Christ's future Kingdom of Israel in the holy land that will be established at His future return.

Too bad that your Church has not covered this.
If all that you are suggesting is true then what is your explanation for why the sun and moon do not obey the ordinances any longer in Isaiah 60? You have yet to give an explanation for this.
 

rebuilder 454

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I dont see your point. Who do you think the 144000 is in Rev 7 ? Who are the servants sealed in their foreheads in Rev7 ? Do you say thats ethnic jews or no ?
They are Jews as the bible declares.
Even the tribes are listed.
No way around it.
 

Davy

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If all that you are suggesting is true then what is your explanation for why the sun and moon do not obey the ordinances any longer in Isaiah 60? You have yet to give an explanation for this.
You actually think you have a winning point to your argument with that sun and moon idea, don't you? If your argument were a bucket, it wouldn't hold a drop of water.

The idea about the sun and moon in Isaiah 60:19-20 is an EXPRESSION. It's about a situation involving the new heavens and a new earth time when God has returned to live upon this earth. You would have to have done a whole lot of Bible study in order to begin to fathom its meaning. But in a nutshell, it means God's Light on earth will outshine... the sun by day and the moon by night. It does not mean the sun and moon will be no more. Understand about God's 'canopy' around the earth in that future time.
 

Davy

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Then thats Salvation by race, ethnicity, so I reject that understanding. Has to be symbolical
No, it is NOT any sort of "Salvation by race, ethnicity" like you say. All must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved, and that includes the seed of Israel.


Why don't you know what God's 'sealing' is about??

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

Eph 1:12-13
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV

Surely you're not among those fanatics on men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory are you?
They are wrongly taught that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are 'tribulation saints', unbelieving Jews that only convert to Christ during the great tribulation. That's a LIE dreamed up by the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors, because when the time of great tribulation begins, each soul will already be on one side or the other, and will remain that way throughout the whole tribulation. And the unbelieving Jews will only... realize Jesus when He returns, and it will be like Jesus said unto them in Luke 23 with the "Blessed are the barren..." parable, showing their deception and shame at His appearing (see also end of Zech.12).
 
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covenantee

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They are Jews as the bible declares.
Even the tribes are listed.
No way around it.
They are Israelites as Scripture declares, which includes Gentiles.

Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22 are not around it.

They're through it.

God is not a racist.
 

grafted branch

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You actually think you have a winning point to your argument with that sun and moon idea, don't you? If your argument were a bucket, it wouldn't hold a drop of water.

The idea about the sun and moon in Isaiah 60:19-20 is an EXPRESSION. It's about a situation involving the new heavens and a new earth time when God has returned to live upon this earth. You would have to have done a whole lot of Bible study in order to begin to fathom its meaning. But in a nutshell, it means God's Light on earth will outshine... the sun by day and the moon by night. It does not mean the sun and moon will be no more. Understand about God's 'canopy' around the earth in that future time.
Oh, my bad, I thought we were supposed to be taking these things literally.

In Isaiah 60:20 it says “thy sun” and “thy moon”, since you are saying this is an “expression”, then this expression tells us that a believers sun and moon are not a literal sun and moon. This is confirmed in verses such as Psalm 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. And verses such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (including the sun and moon).

Ok, back to Jeremiah 31:36, which sun and moon ordinances is God referring to in this promise? The literal sun and moon or the believers sun and moon, the one expressed in Isaiah 60? If it’s the literal sun and moon then this promise is fulfilled as far as believers are concerned because old things (literal sun and moon) are passed away and all things are become new (the Lord God being our sun and shield).
 

Davy

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They are Israelites as Scripture declares, which includes Gentiles.

Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22 are not around it.

They're through it.

God is not a racist.
Another deceived Pre-tribber eh?

The 144,000 are Israelites of the 'seed' only. Sealed with God's Seal which means Christ's Church for the end.

The "great multitude" represents those SEALED of the Gentile believers on Christ.
 
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covenantee

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Another deceived Pre-tribber eh?

The 144,000 are Israelites of the 'seed' only. Sealed with God's Seal which means Christ's Church for the end.

The "great multitude" represents those SEALED of the Gentile believers on Christ.
If you have Scripture disproving Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22,

please present it.