The 144,000 before God at the end.

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Davy

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Oh, my bad, I thought we were supposed to be taking these things literally.

In Isaiah 60:20 it says “thy sun” and “thy moon”, since you are saying this is an “expression”, then this expression tells us that a believers sun and moon are not a literal sun and moon. This is confirmed in verses such as Psalm 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. And verses such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (including the sun and moon).

Ok, back to Jeremiah 31:36, which sun and moon ordinances is God referring to in this promise? The literal sun and moon or the believers sun and moon, the one expressed in Isaiah 60? If it’s the literal sun and moon then this promise is fulfilled as far as believers are concerned because old things (literal sun and moon) are passed away and all things are become new (the Lord God being our sun and shield).

That's a problem many brethren have, not understanding when an 'expression' or allegory is being given verses literal things.

And you still... cannot distinguish the meaning of that Isaiah 60 Scripture because you have cut off your 'spiritual' mind, and instead are trying to understand it with your fleshy mind.

In God's future new heavens and a new earth, He is going to put back the cloud canopy that surrounded the WHOLE earth before Satan rebelled. This is why there are fossils of tropical plant and animal life found at both of the earth's Poles, and in the deserts, showing this whole earth was once a 'literal' paradise over all of it. Genesis 2 reveals God's River of the Waters of Life were once upon this earth also, from His Garden of Eden feeding 4 rivers of which two of them still exist today in Iraq. So Isaiah 60:19-20 is pointing to a totally different condition of God's creation than what your fleshy mind is thinking. And all you can do is mock what God's Word shows about it, revealing your Biblical ignorance.

Rev 21:1
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
KJV
 

grafted branch

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That's a problem many brethren have, not understanding when an 'expression' or allegory is being given verses literal things.
Absolutely agree with you on this.

Rev 21:1
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
KJV
So here you are thinking the sea is a literal sea. As you just said the problem is being able to distinguish between literal or allegory.

In Genesis 1:10 God gathered together the waters and called it sea and saw that it was good. Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Are you saying that in the new heaven new earth nobody is going to ask for sea? The sea is good and God will give good things to those who ask.
 

brightfame52

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No, it is NOT any sort of "Salvation by race, ethnicity" like you say. All must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved, and that includes the seed of Israel.


Why don't you know what God's 'sealing' is about??

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

Eph 1:12-13
12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV

Surely you're not among those fanatics on men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory are you?
They are wrongly taught that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are 'tribulation saints', unbelieving Jews that only convert to Christ during the great tribulation. That's a LIE dreamed up by the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors, because when the time of great tribulation begins, each soul will already be on one side or the other, and will remain that way throughout the whole tribulation. And the unbelieving Jews will only... realize Jesus when He returns, and it will be like Jesus said unto them in Luke 23 with the "Blessed are the barren..." parable, showing their deception and shame at His appearing (see also end of Zech.12).
Who do you believe the 144000 are in Rev 7 ?
 

ewq1938

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Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons. Now strawman that !

It is still a strawman fallacy. You apparently don't know what that is.
 

brightfame52

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It is still a strawman fallacy. You apparently don't know what that is.
Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons. Now strawman that !
 

Davy

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Absolutely agree with you on this.


So here you are thinking the sea is a literal sea. As you just said the problem is being able to distinguish between literal or allegory.
Yes, it is about a 'literal' sea of waters.
That ain't no metaphor, and if you think it is, then you fall to what I said before about some brethren can't tell the difference between a symbolic metaphor in God's Word vs. a literal subject.

Therefore, if you cannot even understand that "sea" is meant literally, it means your mind is still attached to an understanding of the things of this present world, and that you don't know much about the world to come, nor about the previous world when Lucifer actually served God at His Throne before he rebelled in coveting God's Throne. But you're definitely not alone in your Biblical illiteracy.
 

Davy

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Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons.
And that's correct, but it still does not mean the 144,000 of Rev.7 are not literal Israelites of the seed.

You seem to have a problem with the idea of the seed of Israel, as if you've been wrongly taught they all... were guilty of Christ's crucifixion. I'd bet you probably don't even know that some of the Pharisees believed on Jesus, as written in The Gospel. So maybe we ought to have a little talk with you about the subject of ethnicity, and find out who you've been listening to.

And did you not know that when Christ struck Apostle Paul blind on the road to Damascus, Paul at that time called Saul, was a Pharisee? (Acts 9) And he was on his way to Damascus to hunt down Christians, and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial. Jesus directly intervened with Paul's belief, removing all doubt. Paul did not choose Jesus, instead Jesus chose Paul. How then, do you account for that, since Paul was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin?
 

covenantee

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And that's correct, but it still does not mean the 144,000 of Rev.7 are not literal Israelites of the seed.

You seem to have a problem with the idea of the seed of Israel, as if you've been wrongly taught they all... were guilty of Christ's crucifixion. I'd bet you probably don't even know that some of the Pharisees believed on Jesus, as written in The Gospel. So maybe we ought to have a little talk with you about the subject of ethnicity, and find out who you've been listening to.

And did you not know that when Christ struck Apostle Paul blind on the road to Damascus, Paul at that time called Saul, was a Pharisee? (Acts 9) And he was on his way to Damascus to hunt down Christians, and bring them back to Jerusalem for trial. Jesus directly intervened with Paul's belief, removing all doubt. Paul did not choose Jesus, instead Jesus chose Paul. How then, do you account for that, since Paul was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin?
Awaiting your Scriptural disproof of Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.
 

ewq1938

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Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons. Now strawman that !


You keep repeating the strawman fallacy.
 

Timtofly

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Then thats Salvation by race, ethnicity, so I reject that understanding. Has to be symbolical
Is salvation not symbolic?

How do you think the 12 tribes entered redemption in 1400BC? The same way you are, symbolically?

Why is it harder for God to seperate 144k Israelites today, than several million coming out of Egypt? Are you saying they literally did not come out of Egypt, but that was only symbolic? Did they represent the church then? Were those millions merely just symbolic of the NT church instead of a church in their own right?
 

brightfame52

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@Davy

And that's correct, but it still does not mean the 144,000 of Rev.7 are not literal Israelites of the seed.

Yes it does mean that, Its about Salvation, so it means God saved them because of their ethnicity. The seed of Israel to be saved is Spiritual Seed, so it cant be based on race. When its promised all Israel shall be saved, its Spiritual Israel like here Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

So make up your mind, saved Israel is saved either by Grace or Race, cant be both.
 

brightfame52

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Is salvation not symbolic?

How do you think the 12 tribes entered redemption in 1400BC? The same way you are, symbolically?

Why is it harder for God to seperate 144k Israelites today, than several million coming out of Egypt? Are you saying they literally did not come out of Egypt, but that was only symbolic? Did they represent the church then? Were those millions merely just symbolic of the NT church instead of a church in their own right?
Sounds like you promoting Salvation because of race too
 

Timtofly

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Sounds like you promoting Salvation because of race too
You are the one making it about human emotions and racial attributes.

God had already decided since creation who He will choose at the Second Coming to be the 144k, and they don't even have a choice in that decision process.

God can save whom He chooses, and I am not even talking about Reformed theology which claims no one has a choice.

You are forcing the ability to freely choose Salvation onto these 144k, and calling all who don’t agree with you, racist.

Salvation according to the free gift offered to humanity does not deal with races. It deals with a personal choice to accept God or reject God. That is the difference between a wild olive branch, and a natural branch. A natural branch cannot choose to be natural or wild. God makes that choice. Since the moment on the Cross, when Jesus said it is finished, all the natural branches were severed, and they were now just as wild as the wild branches were. That was the removal of the veil from the Holy of Holies. But you have turned the natural branches into some kind of spiritual symbolism, instead of just accepting that natural branches will become natural branches again at the moment of the Second Coming. Those 144k will have no choice in their salvation experience like the OT Israel had no choice, but works and their belief or unbelief.

You fail to see how being cut off as a natural branch is different than never being a part as a wild branch in the physical aspect of birth. Has nothing to do with being racist, but many here want it to be about race, instead of God declaring some natural branches, and others wild.

You are calling God racist on the very fact the majority of humans are wild branches, while God made some natural branches from physical birth. No one is a spiritual natural branch, because Reformed theology is wrong. Paul said:

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

No one since the Cross has been able to claim to be the elect, the natural branches. But all are spiritually elected by God, and can freely come, so God can cut them out of the wild tree, and graft them into the second birth. That is the gift of Salvation and has always been the case since Adam disobeyed God. But since Jacob, God called out natural branches based on physical birth, and that was the case until the Cross. Since the Cross physical Jacob has been placed in partial blindness, and none are natural branches. But Reformed theology based on amil eschatology, declares there is no restoration of Jacob after the Second Coming, and it is they who declare God a racist, because they reject this part as pertaining to the Second Coming, but place it at the first coming:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Paul never said the Cross fulfilled that promise. God extended Salvation to the Gentiles, which was a mystery to Jacob. This promise is not a spiritual fulfillment. This promise will be the physical completion of the work of a physical Jesus as Physical King of Israel as the Prince to come in Daniel 9.

The natural branches have not experienced this promise as natural branches, because they were cut off, while the Gentiles were being grafted in, thus they also had to be grafted in. Now you call God a racist for not letting His own people be natural branches.

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.... For God hath concluded them all (natural Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (the entire world)."

God placed Israel (the natural branches) in an awkward position (unbelief), for the very sake of the Gentiles being grafted in, and all people can do today is argue that God is racist, and replace Israel with two Israels and spiritualize the whole process in their failed human theology and understanding. I guess you may as well call the Apostle Paul racist for writing words that go against your learned theological viewpoint, no? Jesus said when He was about to finish the work of obedience, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". They had to be placed into unbelief by God, or the Cross would not have happened.

I am beginning to think the church has been placed in unbelief about the Second Coming. How else are they supposed to be so apostate as to look for an AC instead of the physical return of Jesus as King?
 

rebuilder 454

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The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
I wonder what's going on with that?
why would God limit himself to this small race of people and why would God choose a race of people?
The Jewish race he made a covenant with and established his people. A race of ethnic Jews.
I guess that is just a fact some can no incorporate into some idea they no longer exist.
The 144k dynamic must be changed somehow.
Wow
 

covenantee

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The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
I wonder what's going on with that?
why would God limit himself to this small race of people and why would God choose a race of people?
The Jewish race he made a covenant with and established his people. A race of ethnic Jews.
I guess that is just a fact some can no incorporate into some idea they no longer exist.
The 144k dynamic must be changed somehow.
Wow
Awaiting your Scriptural disproof of Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

God's Covenant with faithful obedient Israelites.

Both Jews and Gentiles.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.