The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

@ewq1938

No, they are not.

Yes they are, nothing to do with ethnicity, thats the flesh. The Israel of God is comprised of men and women of all nations, races, bloods, and the 144000 number symbolizes all is present and accounted for, all their names had been written in the Lambs book of life.

 

[grafted branch]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number that were, or previously sealed, then in Revelation 7:9 after this the Gentile multitude is seen. This follows the Romans 1:16 principle of Jew first then Greek.

Also in Revelation 11:1-2, those who worship in the temple are measured (counted) by John, but the Gentiles are not, just as the 144,000 are counted but the multitude isn’t. This measuring is done with a reed that is given to John by the angel which would result in a symbolic number, just as the Revelation 21:15 reed used to measure the city gives symbolic numbers.

In the Revelation 21 new Jerusalem, the gates have the names of the twelve tribes and the twelve foundations have the names of the twelve apostles. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that would make thirteen apostles if he was one of the names on the foundation. From Galatians 2:9 we know that James, Peter, and John agreed that they would go to the circumcision while Paul went to the Gentiles. So the 12 gate tribes X the twelve apostles to the circumcision = the 144,000 Jews.

Gentiles simply are not numbered and this principle holds true throughout the scriptures.

 

[covenantee]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number that were, or previously sealed, then in Revelation 7:9 after this the Gentile multitude is seen. This follows the Romans 1:16 principle of Jew first then Greek.

Also in Revelation 11:1-2, those who worship in the temple are measured (counted) by John, but the Gentiles are not, just as the 144,000 are counted but the multitude isn’t. This measuring is done with a reed that is given to John by the angel which would result in a symbolic number, just as the Revelation 21:15 reed used to measure the city gives symbolic numbers.

In the Revelation 21 new Jerusalem, the gates have the names of the twelve tribes and the twelve foundations have the names of the twelve apostles. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that would make thirteen apostles if he was one of the names on the foundation. From Galatians 2:9 we know that James, Peter, and John agreed that they would go to the circumcision while Paul went to the Gentiles. So the 12 gate tribes X the twelve apostles to the circumcision = the 144,000 Jews.

Gentiles simply are not numbered and this principle holds true throughout the scriptures.

The tribes of the children of Israel (Revelation 7:4) were from the beginning comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22).

Physical ethnicity was and is irrelevant in ascertaining the composition of the 144,000.

Spiritual ethnicity was not and is not irrelevant in ascertaining the composition of the 144,000.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

 

[Davy]

False teaching, you trusting in the flesh

Thinking the 144,000 represent some fantasy doctrine of men that is totally irrelevant to the ACTUAL WRITTEN REV.7 SCRIPTURE, is what trusting in the flesh is about.

The 144,000 of Revelation means exactly what it says as written, 12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes listed there, literally AS WRITTEN. And they represent the Israelites of the seed in Christ's Church.

 

[grafted branch]

The tribes of the children of Israel (Revelation 7:4) were from the beginning comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22).

Physical ethnicity was and is irrelevant in ascertaining the composition of the 144,000.

Spiritual ethnicity was not and is not irrelevant in ascertaining the composition of the 144,000.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

Right, I agree ethnicity was not a factor from the start. In Deuteronomy 29:10-13 the covenant was to include thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water.

There was however a distinction still being made between “Jews” and Gentiles in Acts 15:19-20 where there was a different burden placed on the Gentiles. This distinction vanished when the old covenant vanished.

 

[Timtofly]

So then, we don't even have to speculate, we know for sure that God took the Kingdom from that nation or Old Testament body, and gave it to the Gentiles.

No, it was given to those who repented, not to those who never repented.

No such thing as a distinction between Jew nor Gentile, in this nation formed post the Cross. So the kingdom cannot be given to the Gentiles, as that is a distinction that is still true today between the church and the world.

The Gentiles were not the nation. The nation were those in Christ, who stopped being Gentiles at the Second Birth. Israel was a nation distinct from the Gentiles. The church is still a nation distinct from the Gentiles, because the church with the Second Birth is neither Gentile, nor Israel.

As Paul stated, Israel will return at the Second Coming, because that is when Israel will once again, be a distinct nation on earth.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

That was still a future event when Paul wrote those words. That was decades after the Cross. So this will only happen, and can only happen at the Second Coming. Then the church will be removed from the earth. Then the kingdom will be returned to Israel. Then the whole earth will be healed, along with Israel.

 

[Davy]

There was however a distinction still being made between “Jews” and Gentiles in Acts 15:19-20 where there was a different burden placed on the Gentiles. This distinction vanished when the old covenant vanished.

Try and tell that to our Heavenly Father!

Jer 33:23-26
23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off?" thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

That above verse part in red is about those like YOU grafted branch, that wrongly think the 'seed' of Israel no longer has any importance to Christ in His Kingdom.

But God says...

25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV


Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

 

[grafted branch]

Try and tell that to our Heavenly Father!

Jer 33:23-26
23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off?" thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

That above verse part in red is about those like YOU grafted branch, that wrongly think the 'seed' of Israel no longer has any importance to Christ in His Kingdom.

But God says...

25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV


Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

Yea, well, I see two ways of looking at that. If the seed is singular then it’s referring to Christ. If the seed is meant as an ethnic, earthly lineage, then you have a problem.

Isaiah 60:19The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended

The ordinances of the sun, moon, stars.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.

The Jeremiah 31:36 promise of the seed of Israel ceasing to be a nation gets fulfilled when Isaiah 60:19-20 happens, that’s when the Genesis 1:14 ordinances cease. That means there can be no eternal promises made to the nation of Israel, those promises have to be made to the Israel of God.

 

[Davy]

Yea, well, I see two ways of looking at that. If the seed is singular then it’s referring to Christ.

That last statement is still... a denial of what God said in those Scriptures I quoted.

Maybe you think what I'm talking about is some stupid claim like just being born of the seed of Israel means automatic Salvation in Christ? It does not, ALL must believe on The Savior Jesus Christ to have eternal life, and that especially means God's chosen seed of Israel.

But like Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about his deceived Jewish brethren, God's gifts and calling are without repentance, meaning God is not going to go back on His promises to their fathers, and certainly not what He promised to David that there would never fail a man of Israel to sit upon David's throne. Jesus is not sitting upon David's throne yet today, for David's throne is an 'earthly' throne. Jesus will inherit when He comes, and it will be the throne of Israel in His future Kingdom.

What is even more amazing about the false theory about God's chosen seed that you have adopted from men's doctrines, is that you obviously fail to understand just what God did with the majority of NON-Jews of the "house of Israel" which God scattered among the Gentiles first. Those would become the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim per the prophecy in Genesis 48, meaning Christ's Church after Jesus was rejected and crucified in Jerusalem. When Jesus comes though, He is going to show that to everyone, especially to His enemies, and like He said in Ezekiel 39, all will understand how God scattered the ten tribe "house of Israel".

Ezek 39:22-29
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

 

[grafted branch]

That last statement is still... a denial of what God said in those Scriptures I quoted.

Maybe you think what I'm talking about is some stupid claim like just being born of the seed of Israel means automatic Salvation in Christ? It does not, ALL must believe on The Savior Jesus Christ to have eternal life, and that especially means God's chosen seed of Israel.

But like Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about his deceived Jewish brethren, God's gifts and calling are without repentance, meaning God is not going to go back on His promises to their fathers, and certainly not what He promised to David that there would never fail a man of Israel to sit upon David's throne. Jesus is not sitting upon David's throne yet today, for David's throne is an 'earthly' throne. Jesus will inherit when He comes, and it will be the throne of Israel in His future Kingdom.

What is even more amazing about the false theory about God's chosen seed that you have adopted from men's doctrines, is that you obviously fail to understand just what God did with the majority of NON-Jews of the "house of Israel" which God scattered among the Gentiles first. Those would become the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim per the prophecy in Genesis 48, meaning Christ's Church after Jesus was rejected and crucified in Jerusalem. When Jesus comes though, He is going to show that to everyone, especially to His enemies, and like He said in Ezekiel 39, all will understand how God scattered the ten tribe "house of Israel".

Ezek 39:22-29
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

Ok, scratch the idea that the seed is referring to Christ and let’s just focus on the seed being ethnic Israel or the nation of Israel.

I just showed you that the Jeremiah 31:36 promise that Israel will cease to be a nation gets fulfilled.

Now let’s look at Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Here is an eternal promise that can’t be referring to the nation of Israel because they cease from being a nation when Jeremiah 31:36 gets fulfilled. Who do you think the Ezekiel 37:25 eternal promise is meant for?

 

[brightfame52]

Thinking the 144,000 represent some fantasy doctrine of men that is totally irrelevant to the ACTUAL WRITTEN REV.7 SCRIPTURE, is what trusting in the flesh is about.

The 144,000 of Revelation means exactly what it says as written, 12,000 out of each of the 12 tribes listed there, literally AS WRITTEN. And they represent the Israelites of the seed in Christ's Church.

This is all about Salvation, thats a clue to understanding, and since you insist the 144000 are ethnic jews, you teach that God saves because of ethnicity, that's a denial of Salvation by Grace and charges God with respect of persons, saving favoritism based on ethnicity.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes they are, nothing to do with ethnicity, thats the flesh.

And they are flesh people and their ethnicity is mentioned. Only those who are blood related to those 12 tribes. There's no Chinese, African, or Indians in the 144k. Theer's plenty of those races in the body of Christ but not specifically the 144k.

 

[covenantee]

And they are flesh people and their ethnicity is mentioned. Only those who are blood related to those 12 tribes. There's no Chinese, African, or Indians in the 144k. Theer's plenty of those races in the body of Christ but not specifically the 144k.

You apparently consider Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22 to be erroneous.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.

 

[brightfame52]

And they are flesh people and their ethnicity is mentioned. Only those who are blood related to those 12 tribes. There's no Chinese, African, or Indians in the 144k. Theer's plenty of those races in the body of Christ but not specifically the 144k.

nothing to do with ethnicity, that's the flesh. Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons.

 

[Davy]

Yea, well, I see two ways of looking at that. If the seed is singular then it’s referring to Christ. If the seed is meant as an ethnic, earthly lineage, then you have a problem.

The 'seed' of Israel is not singular, meaning only about Jesus once He was born in the flesh, and I think you well know that. Otherwise The New Testament would never have reason to even mention the name Israel for the future.

In Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul even reveals the title of "commonwealth of Israel" when speaking of both the literal seed of Israel under Christ, and the Gentiles that have come into the covenants and promises God gave to the seed of Israel.

In other words, if God's promises to the 'seed' are not true, then neither is that "commonwealth of Israel". And you do understand I assume, just what a 'commonwealth' is.

And on a deeper note, something not that many come to understand in their Old Testament Books Bible study, is the Promise by Faith and Blessings, i.e., God's Birthright which God first gave to Abraham was inherited by Isaac and Jacob, etc. And the new name which Jacob was given, i.e., Israel, is to represent that, which is about Christ's Church in final (see Galatians 3). The name Israel means the overcomers with God's help. So regardless that many of the 'seed' have not believed, that does not affect God's covenants and promises He gave to those of the seed that would... believe, like the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets, and Christ's disciples and all those of the seed that believe on Jesus Christ as The Savior. They don't stop being Israelites just because of belief on Lord Jesus Christ.

Also what you apparently do not understand per God's Word, is when God literally removed the ten northern tribes from the holy land, never to return even to this day, the Jews of the southern kingdom only were left in the land, and only became known as Israel (i.e., the Jews, tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). The majority of the seed of ten northern tribes became 'lost' to themselves, and lost to the Jews, and to the world, but not to God. That Old Testament Bible history is apparently missing... in your theology.

 

[Davy]

Ok, scratch the idea that the seed is referring to Christ and let’s just focus on the seed being ethnic Israel or the nation of Israel.

I just showed you that the Jeremiah 31:36 promise that Israel will cease to be a nation gets fulfilled.

NO, you did not. You failed to read what that Scripture actually says... which is the opposite of what you say. And you must... include the previous 35th verse before it which is part of that subject...

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

That "If" is called a 'condition'. It's simple math logic, and is also used in computer language programming. It means that IF... that phrase in 'red' is true, then the phrase in 'green' would be true. That phrase in 'red' is NOT true today though, and never will be true, simply because even in God's future new heavens and a new earth, those things will still exist.

God is actually giving us an 'expression' with that, as a way for His claim that the nation of Israel shall never... cease being a nation before Him.


So it is amazing... that you... chose to try and turn that verse around to mean the opposite of what God actually said there. What do you think that reveals about yourself?

 

[Davy]

This is all about Salvation, thats a clue to understanding, and since you insist the 144000 are ethnic jews, you teach that God saves because of ethnicity, that's a denial of Salvation by Grace and charges God with respect of persons, saving favoritism based on ethnicity.

The Rev.7 chapter is about God's SEALING of His servants, and the holding of the 'four winds' so they do not blow UNTIL His servants are sealed with His seal. That... is the main subject of the Rev.7 chapter.

But the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors instead turn and twist that Rev.7 chapter to 'their' false rapture doctrine, and thus leave... the actual subject written in that chapter.

Rev 7:1-3
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
KJV

Just what is that sealing?
It's God sealing of His by The Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus (2 Colossians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30).

What's it for?
Against deception by the coming false-Messiah and his locust army at the end of this world.

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV


Because the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 are shown to John in a future time AFTER Christ's coming in His future "thousand years" reign, there's no need to think they are not 'sealed' with God's seal also and came out the "great tribulation" by washing their robes in the Blood of The Lamb, which means what? It means they went THROUGH THE TRIBULATION and through persecution, taking up their cross for Jesus, they 'overcame' through Him, and thus were 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

nothing to do with ethnicity, that's the flesh.

God describes their ethnicity so you are wrong. Read the words.

Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons.

This is a strawman fallacy. No one said they were saved because of their ethnicity. They are saved because they have Christ. They just happen to all be from Israel. No saved Gentiles are part of the 144k. Stop making everything into symbolism.

 

[grafted branch]

That "If" is called a 'condition'. It's simple math logic, and is also used in computer language programming. It means that IF... that phrase in 'red' is true, then the phrase in 'green' would be true. That phrase in 'red' is NOT true today though, and never will be true, simply because even in God's future new heavens and a new earth, those things will still exist.

God is actually giving us an 'expression' with that, as a way for His claim that the nation of Israel shall never... cease being a nation before Him.


So it is amazing... that you... chose to try and turn that verse around to mean the opposite of what God actually said there. What do you think that reveals about yourself?

The if condition is true when Isaiah 60:20 comes to pass. In Isaiah 60:20 the sun shall no more go down and the moon does not withdraw itself. The sun and moon are not obeying the ordinances that the they are to divide the day from the night.

You have not address this matter. How can the ordinances remain before God and yet the sun and moon not obey them?

 

[grafted branch]

The Rev.7 chapter is about God's SEALING of His servants, and the holding of the 'four winds' so they do not blow UNTIL His servants are sealed with His seal. That... is the main subject of the Rev.7 chapter.

What are you talking about?
The four angels are given to hurt the earth and sea, they are not given to protect the earth and sea. The holding back of the wind is what is hurting the earth and sea, that’s why they are commanded not hurt the earth and sea till the servants have been sealed.

John then heard the number that were, as in past tense, sealed. They were sealed while the earth and sea were being hurt, only a remnant were sealed during this time. After the wind blows the multitude gets sealed, Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.