The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

@Timtofly

God had already decided since creation who He will choose at the Second Coming to be the 144k, and they don't even have a choice in that decision process.

Thats the Church chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Davy]

@Davy



Yes it does mean that, Its about Salvation, so it means God saved them because of their ethnicity. The seed of Israel to be saved is Spiritual Seed, so it cant be based on race. When its promised all Israel shall be saved, its Spiritual Israel like here Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

So make up your mind, saved Israel is saved either by Grace or Race, cant be both.

We'll just have to leave it at the fact that you need more Bible study instead just staying with a couple of New Testament verses that your preachers have taught you. Then you may, in time, come to understand the meaning God has for the name 'Israel' in His future Kingdom.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Awaiting your Scriptural disproof of Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

God's Covenant with faithful obedient Israelites.

Both Jews and Gentiles.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.

I am not replacement theology.
Israel is the wayward wife.
We see in Romans she will be grafted back in.
Are you believing the church will be grafted back in?
The church has been cut off?
What group will be grafted back in?
A non group of non jews?

 

[covenantee]

I am not replacement theology.
Israel is the wayward wife.
We see in Romans she will be grafted back in.
Are you believing the church will be grafted back in?
The church has been cut off?
What group will be grafted back in?
A non group of non jews?

Awaiting a description of "replacement theory". What is replaced? Israel's DNA? Israel's opportunity to receive Christ? Israel's room at the cross?

Awaiting your Scriptural disproof of Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

We'll just have to leave it at the fact that you need more Bible study instead just staying with a couple of New Testament verses that your preachers have taught you. Then you may, in time, come to understand the meaning God has for the name 'Israel' in His future Kingdom.

Hope God delivers you from the delusion of Salvation based upon ethnicity, since it denies Grace Salvation.

 

[Davy]

Hope God delivers you from the delusion of Salvation based upon ethnicity, since it denies Grace Salvation.

Well, you made a FALSE WITNESS statement, a LIE, because I NEVER made any such claim that anyone is saved based on their flesh birth, i.e., your "ethnicity". Instead, I have constantly taught that Christ's Salvation is by FAITH alone!

And you will pay... for making up that LIE against me too, it is coming! May God rebuke you in the Name of Jesus Christ!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Awaiting a description of "replacement theory". What is replaced? Israel's DNA? Israel's opportunity to receive Christ? Israel's room at the cross?

Awaiting your Scriptural disproof of Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed
It
Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Lol
Re read it.
There were Two matriachs
Sarah and haagar.
The children of Sarah are the children of the promise, and the children of Hagar have no inheritance.
both are of the Seed of Abraham...only those of Isaac are of the promise.
that is what is being portrayed.
He's giving two separate ethnic trees from Abraham. I don't know where you got that spin on what's being said there but it is way off my friend

 

[Davy]

Lol
Re read it.
There were Two matriachs
Sarah and haagar.
The children of Sarah are the children of the promise, and the children of Hagar have no inheritance.
both are of the Seed of Abraham...only those of Isaac are of the promise.
that is what is being portrayed.
He's giving two separate ethnic trees from Abraham. I don't know where you got that spin on what's being said there but it is way off my friend

Neither one of you reveal that you've studied enough of God's Word and history to understand what you're both trying... to talk about.


The below events have not happened yet today. They are for the time when Lord Jesus returns...

Ezek 37:19-26
19 Say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.'"
KJV

In the above God mentions how Israel has been "two nations" and "two kingdoms", and when the above happens, they will be made "one nation" in the land of Israel again. And linked to that future time is God's House, that "sanctuary" being among them that He mentioned in verse 26, which has still not happened yet, for this is for the future after Christ's return, That "one shepherd".

The stick of Joseph and tribes of Israel under Ephraim = the ten lost tribes of Israel.

The stick of Judah = the Jews of the "house of Judah", the other tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that were separated from the ten tribes per God's doing of 1 Kings 11 forward.

THAT... is how Israel has been TWO NATIONS, and that has been since the days of Solomon, LONG BEFORE LORD JESUS WAS BORN IN THE FLESH. That means you cannot try and use what Paul said in Romans 9 about flesh Israel vs. spiritual Israel to define the 'two nations' idea.

 

[covenantee]

Lol
Re read it.
There were Two matriachs
Sarah and haagar.
The children of Sarah are the children of the promise, and the children of Hagar have no inheritance.
both are of the Seed of Abraham...only those of Isaac are of the promise.
that is what is being portrayed.
He's giving two separate ethnic trees from Abraham. I don't know where you got that spin on what's being said there but it is way off my friend

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul is addressing the Galatian Church, which included both Jews and Gentiles, and has been true of the Church ever since.

Nothing to do with physical ethnicity, but everything to do with spiritual ethnicity.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort him into one.

Got it?

 

[covenantee]

Neither one of you reveal that you've studied enough of God's Word and history to understand what you're both trying... to talk about.


The below events have not happened yet today. They are for the time when Lord Jesus returns...

Ezek 37:19-26
19 Say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.'"
KJV

In the above God mentions how Israel has been "two nations" and "two kingdoms", and when the above happens, they will be made "one nation" in the land of Israel again. And linked to that future time is God's House, that "sanctuary" being among them that He mentioned in verse 26, which has still not happened yet, for this is for the future after Christ's return, That "one shepherd".

The stick of Joseph and tribes of Israel under Ephraim = the ten lost tribes of Israel.

The stick of Judah = the Jews of the "house of Judah", the other tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that were separated from the ten tribes per God's doing of 1 Kings 11 forward.

THAT... is how Israel has been TWO NATIONS, and that has been since the days of Solomon, LONG BEFORE LORD JESUS WAS BORN IN THE FLESH. That means you cannot try and use what Paul said in Romans 9 about flesh Israel vs. spiritual Israel to define the 'two nations' idea.

Ever heard of the New Testament?

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The Church is the only nation God recognizes in His New Testament.

That ain't the nation of Israel.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, you made a FALSE WITNESS statement, a LIE, because I NEVER made any such claim that anyone is saved based on their flesh birth, i.e., your "ethnicity". Instead, I have constantly taught that Christ's Salvation is by FAITH alone!

And you will pay... for making up that LIE against me too, it is coming! May God rebuke you in the Name of Jesus Christ!

Rev 7 is about Salvation, the sealing of the 144000 is about Salvation, you insist they are ethnic jews. So you can say by Faith alone all you want, you deny it out the other side of your mouth.

 

[ewq1938]

Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons. Now strawman that !

Strawman fallacy

A straw man is a common form of a fallacious argument based upon presenting the impression of refuting a person's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not promoted or held by that person.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 7 is about Salvation, the sealing of the 144000 is about Salvation, you insist they are ethnic jews.

Scriptures says they are ethnic Israel. You are the one who is denying what scripture says about them.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly



Thats the Church chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The church is called out to be seperate. However you changed the point, that the church has no choice.

Those verses do not represent your point. Why do you think God wants the church to keep living in sin, just because they can, without any consequences?

God chose the entire world. Yet the majority of the world has not chosen God. That means God has the right to cut them off in disbelief. Salvation is a free gift, not something forced. The 144k do not have a choice, so not part of the church how you describe the church. Now if you can prove Salvation is not a choice, and you were going to be saved regardless of your repentance, then you are the 144k.

In Acts 16:30-31

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Paul did not say just be born and you are saved. They had to choose to do something, even if it was not a physical work. Where do you read any where those 144k were sealed because they asked to be sealed? All those 144k had to do was to have a physical birth, and wait for an angel to come seal them.

Paul never taught that the Gentiles had to wait around for some angel to come and make it clear to them that they were the elect.

Paul did teach in Romans 11, that at the Second Coming Jesus would come and restore some of Israel back to being natural branches and remove their spiritual blindness placed on them in part. Seems the 144k were sealed by an angel, just when Paul stated the natural branches would be restored. The 144k has nothing to do with the 2 millennium that has happened since Paul wrote the book of Romans.

Those verses you quoted means we cannot clean up our act on our own to prove we are redeemed. They also don't say Jesus changes a certain percentage of the population, who have no clue why they stopped doing what they used to do. Romans 10:13-16

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel."

How is this a process describing that all one has to do is to be physically born? That is what being elect implies, when you say there is no choice, but one has been chosen since the foundation of the world.

The difference between the church and the 144k, is that the church has to come by faith, and receive the gift of Salvation. The 144k are sealed by an angel, and have no choice but to be changed, when they are sealed and changed by God. It is still God that changes a person, because no one can change themselves out of death, into eternal life.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The particular phase of salvation which the 144,000 ethnic Israelite tribal members experienced was their bodily resurrection. They were preserved in that glorified resurrected state - "sealed" - as a symbol that their eventual transport to heaven in those glorified bodies was reserved in the future for them. While they temporarily remained on earth, nothing could harm them.

These 144,000 Firstfruits (as Rev. 14:4 calls them) were the first massed group of resurrected saints to come out of their graves. Along with Christ the First-fruits, these 144,000 First-fruits were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints which came out of those graves around Jerusalem which the earthquake broke open on the day of Christ's crucifixion. After Christ's resurrection, they came to life again and rose out of those graves and went into Jerusalem to be seen of many.

These 144,000 First-fruits were all ethnic Israelites - a subset limited number of saints which were included among the later great unnumbered multitude standing before the throne in heaven who would come out of every nation, kindred, people, and tongue (Rev. 7:9). Together, all of these were considered to be the "Israel of God".

 

[brightfame52]

Strawman fallacy

A straw man is a common form of a fallacious argument based upon presenting the impression of refuting a person's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not promoted or held by that person.

Salvation is never ever based upon the flesh, ethnicity, that's a flat out denial of Grace and makes God a respecter of persons. Now strawman that !

 

[brightfame52]

Scriptures says they are ethnic Israel. You are the one who is denying what scripture says about them.

You promoting Salvation by race which denies Grace, not scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

The church is called out to be seperate. However you changed the point, that the church has no choice.

Those verses do not represent your point. Why do you think God wants the church to keep living in sin, just because they can, without any consequences?

God chose the entire world. Yet the majority of the world has not chosen God. That means God has the right to cut them off in disbelief. Salvation is a free gift, not something forced. The 144k do not have a choice, so not part of the church how you describe the church. Now if you can prove Salvation is not a choice, and you were going to be saved regardless of your repentance, then you are the 144k.

In Acts 16:30-31

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Paul did not say just be born and you are saved. They had to choose to do something, even if it was not a physical work. Where do you read any where those 144k were sealed because they asked to be sealed? All those 144k had to do was to have a physical birth, and wait for an angel to come seal them.

Paul never taught that the Gentiles had to wait around for some angel to come and make it clear to them that they were the elect.

Paul did teach in Romans 11, that at the Second Coming Jesus would come and restore some of Israel back to being natural branches and remove their spiritual blindness placed on them in part. Seems the 144k were sealed by an angel, just when Paul stated the natural branches would be restored. The 144k has nothing to do with the 2 millennium that has happened since Paul wrote the book of Romans.

Those verses you quoted means we cannot clean up our act on our own to prove we are redeemed. They also don't say Jesus changes a certain percentage of the population, who have no clue why they stopped doing what they used to do. Romans 10:13-16

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel."

How is this a process describing that all one has to do is to be physically born? That is what being elect implies, when you say there is no choice, but one has been chosen since the foundation of the world.

The difference between the church and the 144k, is that the church has to come by faith, and receive the gift of Salvation. The 144k are sealed by an angel, and have no choice but to be changed, when they are sealed and changed by God. It is still God that changes a person, because no one can change themselves out of death, into eternal life.

Then you teaching a Salvation that denies Grace and promotes a salvation based upon the flesh. Confidence in the flesh.

 

[ewq1938]

You promoting Salvation by race which denies Grace, not scripture.

No, I am not. They are saved through faith in Christ not by race. I already told you that but you decided to ignore it and continue this false strawman fallacy.

 

[Timtofly]

Then you teaching a Salvation that denies Grace and promotes a salvation based upon the flesh. Confidence in the flesh.

No, you are missing the point that election to salvation is God's choice, not about flesh at all.