TULIP an open discussion

[Wrangler]

Are you suggesting that human agency exists apart from the divine will?

100%. Sin would not be possible if human agency was a strict extention of divine will.

 

[Wrangler]

Without the redeeming work of Jesus' death on the cross and his ascension, one will never find another way to find pardon.

Yet, even with the redeeming work of Jesus' death on the cross, many will still not find pardon - even those who claim to be believers.

 

[Wrangler]

The conditional does not prove that we can go either way.

Yes, the condition does prove we can go other way. If we could not go another way, it would be unconditional.

 

[Wrangler]

Paul's Potter analogy

It's Jeremiah's potter analogy, isn't it? Paul merely piggy backed on it.

 

[Wrangler]

Paul's Potter analogy is intended to defend his position against those who claim that Paul's arguments are invalid because they lead to absurd conclusions. Paul's argument must be invalid, for instance, because it leads to the conclusion that God is unjust.

You are being willfully ignorant of the point; the reaction of the pot being created.

It is not God that has to be justified to us; we have to justify ourselves to God.

You have too many things fundamentally backwards. So, I'll leave this thread.

 

[APAK]

I like to think that we are dealing with a complicated subject and that discussion among friends can be helpful to those who follow along. I opened this thread at someone else's request, and I did so because she asked and because I thought it might be helpful to others.

Moreover, the doctrine of election as it pertains to Perseverance is very encouraging. And, during these times, I want to be as encouraging as possible.

Paul's Potter analogy is intended to defend his position against those who claim that Paul's arguments are invalid because they lead to absurd conclusions. Paul's argument must be invalid, for instance, because it leads to the conclusion that God is unjust.

The analogy seeks to illustrate the fundamental and foundational reasons behind the act of creation. I explain the analogy in terms of a hypothetical woman who goes to the store to buy a pot. Her choices are limited to the available pots and she chooses a pot that was already created. But God is not like the woman who chooses a pot. He is like the potter who makes a pot. And one of the fundamental principles of creation is "form follows function". Paul's analogy makes this point explicit.

Granted, the potter analogy doesn't speak to the reaction of the pot, except to say that a pot would not say, "Why did you make me this way?"

Sadism implies that God is treating someone in a way they didn't deserve. But Paul's analogy specifies that God is treating someone based on the purpose for which they were designed.

You are doing a bang-up job here C+Z. Keep up the great work.

What is missing by most in this type of conversation is the fact as my heart was a witness to it, that 'most' folks are first moved by God to come to salvation, like the first step before preparing our heart for cultivation and then fertilization in planting the holy seed into our heart. We enter into salvation as God moves first by His will to affect/infect our heart with his presence. It is not up to us and our own will at all.

He rattles it and revealed the sin within our heart. Then if our heart/spirit is sincerely and humbly moved by this at all, we then compel ourselves, as our own desire to REPENT to God, as we then have opened the door for God to go to work. It is a holy spiritual affair, of God's will that brings salvation to us, not as a quiet, even sincere space of time where we decide alone when and how to make a decision one day to be saved. I question one's salvation when one says it is this way, and its a decision based on my free-will. It makes me gringe, especially because that never happened to me when God one day gave me his Spirit through his Son. Our will at the moment, prior to and after receiving the Spirit of God is completely yielded or arrested and suppressed by our choice because of God's overwhelming presence and our sense of love for him. We are made this way, to come to our Creator in awe of his presence, and give ourselves to him, to perform his surgery on us, as the fragile mortal and human being that we are in comparison.

.....Blessings to you and your work here...

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: Nothing in those verses state that God created some to be good or bad, or created Jacob to love and Esau to hate.

You argue that God's "election" is not a matter of creation, but a matter of selection. In your view, preordination is nothing more than a decision to reward believers with salvation and to punish unbelievers. Each individual must decide for himself, whether to believe or not; and each individual must decide to maintain belief.

“Election” means to “choose.” God chooses to save those who believe in His Son, because His Son died for the sins of the world, so that, all those believing in him may be saved (John 3:16).

God’s good pleasure is to save those who believe through the foolish preaching of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 1:21).

No Scripture teaches that God created anyone repenting and believing; rather, God patiently urges, reasons with, pleads with, commands, admonishes, and warns everyone to repent and believe (Romans 2:4-6; Acts 17:30; Isaiah 1:18-20; Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 33:11; Jeremiah 32:33; Acts 7:51-57; Jeremiah 18:10-12; Matthew 22:3; Matthew 23:37; Isaiah 45:21-22; and so many more).

Accordingly, in your view, God predetermined to love anyone who believed his promise and to hate those who despised it. Since Jacob believed God's promise, God loved him, and since Esau despised his birthright, God hated Esau.

I get your view, but does it square with Paul's argument? Did Paul intend to illustrate the principle that God rewards the good and punishes the bad? No. Not really. Paul removes judgment from the equation.

In Romans 9, Paul's argument is that:

If by works, we will be judged by the Law - which brings judgment by the Law.
If by our faith, we are made righteous.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense;
and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

God tells Rebekah, before her twins were born, that the younger would serve the older. Was this merely a prediction of the future?

The word “prediction” means to "forecast," and insinuates that it may or may not come to pass. When God gives a prophecy about what will happen, then what was prophesied will 100% come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:22).

No, not entirely. God's word to Rebekah was a promise, indicating his intent to purposely help Jacob and burden Esau.

You are confusing what was promised in Romans 9:9, in contrast to what God prophesied before they were born.

A promise God makes can be conditional. For instance, God promises that whoever believes will be saved, and whoever does not believe remains condemned (John 3:16-18). In this case, salvation is guaranteed by God as a promise, but only to those who will believe.

And faith does not merit our salvation; but if we try to justify ourselves by the Law, then we will be judged condemned by the Law.

God’s promise to Rebekah was unconditional; in the sense that, God chose Jacob to be the one through whom "The Promise" would come, which is by faith.

He points out that God decided to work things out for the good of Jacob, and work things out for the detriment of Esau. Everything God did for Jacob, gave Jacob the advantage over his brother Esau. And everything God did against Esau put him at a disadvantage.

First of all, God is not unjust for blessing with good things to someone who trusts in God and obeys him.

Proverbs 16:20 (WEB) 20 God blesses those who obey him; happy the man who puts his trust in the Lord.

Yes, God worked out His plan through Jacob through whom “The Promise” would come, which is by faith. Jacob believed God, which God foreknew; and so, God blessed Jacob with special promises as the “firstborn.”

Esau did not express true Faith in God, which God had foreknowledge about before he was born; and so, although God blessed him with descendants through Isaac, God did not allow Esau to be the “firstborn” through whom “The Promise” would come.

In Paul's mind, the account of Jacob and Esau illustrates the call of God. He writes, ". . . so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls . . ." In Romans 11, Paul will assert that the callings of God are irresistible.

In "Romans 11:28-29," the Promise is that God's election of Israel is irrevocable, a promise God made because of the faithfulness of the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) through whom the promises were made, not of works, but because of their faith.

Romans 11:28-29 (WEB) 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

However, not everyone who is physically an offspring of Israel is really an Israelite; rather the election is only for the "Children of the Promise" (Romans 9:6-8) which is by faith (Romans 9:30-33).

Therefore, while God's election of Israel is irrevocable, many in Israel were cut off, because they fell from the faith (Romans 11:22), but according to The Promise, those who remain faithful will not be cut off (Romans 11:22) - they are the Children of Promise (Romans 9:6-8).

Romans 11:22 (WEB) 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Jacob didn't compel or induce God to work on his behalf. Jacob didn't petition or pray to God that he might help Jacob gain an advantage over Esau.

It was Rebekah who, by faith, deceived Isaac into blessing Jacob instead of Esau. Jacob was hesitant about the idea, but Rebekah convinced him to do it. That was Rebekah doing, but God already foreknew it.

Rather, it was Jacob's "calling" to be the leader of Israel. It was Esau's "calling" to serve his brother. And since God "called" Jacob to be the leader of Israel, God orchestrated Jacob's personal history to Jacob's advantage and to Esau's disadvantage. Understand, God assigns our calling to us before we are born and he orchestrates our personal histories such that we will fulfill our calling.

Yes, God orchestrated events to bring about His plan of salvation, all the way up the chain to Lord Jesus, but the Scriptures do not teach that God created Jacob’s and Esau’s choices. God chose Jacob through whom “The Promise” would come, but this was not independent of what God foreknew about Jacob and Esau before they were born, and planned accordingly.

No Scripture in the entire Bible teaches that God creates all our choices that we will make before we are born; rather, God continually holds each person totally responsible for the choices they make, including Adam and Eve, even though God can foreknow those choices.

setst777 said: You believe that our decision to believe the Gospel after we are born is all God doing, having created some to believe and be saved, and others to hate and condemn, before being born. That is not what “Romans 9” states anywhere; rather, that is your assumption.

On the contrary, that is my conclusion -- not my assumption.

Thank you for sharing your conclusion.

By faith doesn't mean "because of faith."

No such distinction is made in Scripture. I provided for you examples of the faith of Job, Isaac, Abraham, all of whom God commended and blessed for their faith. The fact is, God’s desire is to save those who believe in Lord Jesus. There is no Scripture that states God creates faith in some to be saved and not others.

Nevertheless, Lord Jesus said that the Father love us {{{“because”}}} we “love” Lord Jesus, and “because” we have believed – so that settles it; your entire position fails.

John 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, {{{because}}} you have loved me, and have believed that I came from God.

Why does the Father love us? Not because God created us to love and believe in Lord Jesus, but God loves us because we love and believe in him. So, your doctrine falls.

 

[setst777]

I think so. But your interpretation of the phrase "by faith" makes salvation into wages.

Not according to the Apostle Paul (Romans 4:2-5)

setst777 said: God prepares for destruction those who are objects of His wrath (those who do evil) even though he was patient.
God appoints beforehand for glory those who will believe.

I already argued how your analysis does not square with God's role as a creator. In your view, God is selecting people according to decisions that the people make. This is like the woman who goes to the store to pick out a vase. But God is not like the woman who goes to the store to pick out a vase. God is like the potter who makes vases.

God chooses to form a vase for blessing or punishment, and noble or ignoble purpose, depending on how the “clay” (a person or nation) responds in His hands. God has a right to explain His actions, and not be silenced.

Jeremiah 18:10-12 (“Potter and the Clay” explained by God) 10 {{{if they}}} do that which is evil in my sight, that {{{they}}} not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit {{{them}}}. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. {{{Everyone}}} return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”

2 Timothy 2:19-22 (WEB) 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 {{{If anyone}}} therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return
from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

As you can see for yourself, or can you, God is reacting and choosing based on how we respond to His grace. And that is what “The Potter and Clay” analogy is teaching us. That is how God works out salvation in a sinner's life according to His plan and promise, and God can foreknow our choices.

setst777 said: Many Calvinists will interpret "foreknowledge" to mean "for-cause,"

I don't know any Calvinists who interpret "foreknowledge" as "fore-caused."

I have known more than a few Calvinists that teach this. However, when they use the word “for-caused” they do not mean that God forces anyone; rather, that God is the First-Cause, the Creator, by which all other things must occur as God planned. Nothing happens without The Source/Cause. That is what I understand. I recently debated a Calvinist who adamantly defended the definition of “foreknow” to mean “for-cause.”

I will say this though, you also define God as the one who “causes,” which is what “for-caused” means:

CadyandZoe said: has caused us to be born again

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

setst777 said: Likewise, "foreknowledge" cannot mean "for-caused" or "determined" because Paul differentiates between "determined counsel" and "foreknowledge."

Most Calvinists that I know, and I agree with them, understand Biblical foreknowledge in terms of a covenant. If God has a covenant with a people in the past, then he has "foreknown" them. To "know" somebody is to have a relationship with them.

I can see why most Calvinists would understand Biblical foreknowledge in terms of a covenant since God "foreknew" Israel (Romans 11:12) in a covenantal sense, but that is because the context involves a covenant, not that the word "foreknowledge" of itself must be used in terms of a covenant.

For God to have foreknowledge of something or someone, God knows all the details, which makes “foreknowledge” intimate to God, and that is how God foreknows the details about the wicked men who crucified His Son in “Acts 2:23,” not that God "fore-loved" what the wicked men did to His Son.

Jesus used the verb "to know" in Matthew 7:23, where he clearly means "You and I never had a relationship together."

Yes, it can mean having a relationship, and if it does, then that person, or even God, knows about them intimately, experientially.

To know: 1097 ginṓskō – properly, to know, especially through personal experience (first-hand acquaintance).

Definition: to come to know, recognize, perceive

The word “to know” does not mean “to love;" for instance:

Matthew 12:15 But Jesus, aware of [this], withdrew

Matthew 12:33 for the tree is known by its fruit.

Matthew 25:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.

Therefore; to “foreknow” does not mean "forelove," rather, it means to know beforehand, even to intimately know the details about things or persons, and yes, this intimate knowledge can lead to love, but not always

It depends on the context. Therefore, to “foreknow” does not mean to “fore-love,” but it can mean to have intimate beforehand knowledge or experience with the event, thing, or person(s) of which can cause one to feel love.

I think the reason why we find so many interpretations of a verse is more likely due to personal preference and worldview.

I agree that plays a huge part; however, the Greek grammar construction used by Paul in “Ephesians 2:8-9” is unique; in that, this grammar construction is nowhere else used in the NT, and the construction is difficult to discern precisely. To me, I have studied it and clearly understand what it means, and I can show what it means by just the Greek grammar alone, and also by the context of Scripture teaching us about the gracious gift of salvation that is by faith; but then, like you say, others will still disagree because of personal preference, and/or what they feel is the correct grammar.

Therefore, using “Ephesians 2:8-9” as a proof-text for your view is not helpful; because I could also use it as my proof-text to support my understanding that God’s saving grace (singular neuter subject) is the gift (singular neuter subject pronoun) of God that is by faith, not works.

So you admit that God gives each person a measure of faith? But for some reason you want to say that you came up with saving faith on your own? How does that work?

I don’t say it; rather the Apostle Paul wrote in his Letters to the Believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-13; Romans 12:3-8); in that, Christians are all one in the Spirit as the Body of Christ, yet with different gifts as the Spirit wills. One of those gifts that Christians are given is the gift of faith to operate in the unique Spiritual gift given to that person, charismatically speaking, as Paul details.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh no! Not the we are all robots religion again!
Danger! Danger! Will Robinson! You do not want to be a robot!

 

[MonoBiblical]

Calvinism shares much with Medieval Catholicism. Total depravity, everlasting punishment, total original sin. Christ redeems people by supernatural magic, though it became less sacramental. And this is 'moderate' Calvinism.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: No Scripture states that God created this faith in a select number of people by grace; rather, we who believe {{{gain our access}}} into this grace in which we stand.

The passage you quoted highlights the boast of those who have a proven faith. There is only one reason why a faith remains, even after sustaining trials and tribulations. "The Love of God is poured out into the heart in the form of the Holy Spirit." And under that condition, a person's hope will not be disappointed.

Christians do boast in the hope they have in Christ by their faith in him. As the Christian continues to believe, his hope will not disappoint. As we remain faithful, we do experience the love of God in our hearts.

However, I gave you over two posts of quotes from Peter, Paul, James, and Jesus that teach us Christians that we are responsible to continue in the faith, to continue walking in the Spirit, to receive what we hope for, and not everyone will remain in “The Faith” as the quotes also very clearly teach. You never responded to those. The fact is the Christian in obligated to live by the Spirit (Romans 8:12-13), without giving up (Galatians 6:7-9) to possess Eternal Life from the Spirit. Not all Christians will remain faithful to do so, as the Scriptures I quoted for you earlier show.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

setst777 said: Abraham, of himself, believed God, and that is why he was justified – not that he was created to believe.

You got that wrong. It was Abraham's faith that was accounted as Justifedness. Abraham wasn't justified because he had faith. Abraham's faith indicated that he was justified.

Actually, God justified Abraham for his faith in God. See also Hebrews 11 - the cloud of witnesses.

Romans 4:2 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

Romans 4:18-22 (WEB) 18 Besides hope, Abraham in hope believed, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, “So will your offspring be.” [Genesis 15:5] 19 Without being weakened in faith, he didn’t consider his own body, already having been worn out, (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn’t waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was also able to perform. 22 Therefore it also was “credited to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

No, that is not fatalism. You left out an essential component of fatalism, which is nihilism -- the idea that nothing really matters.

“Fatalism” means that the destiny of human beings is controlled inexorably and ultimately by God,” which is what you have been saying all along, and of which I have quoted from you. In other words, there is no room for change on our part, because God creates all our choices. That is fatalistic. Your view of “Divine Determinism” is, therefore, fatalistic. These four quotes of yours, in particular, show that you are completely fatalistic:

CadyandZoe said: Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said:
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

setst777 said: I ask you honestly, could Paul have made in any more plane to understand?

Not According to Peter, who said that Paul is hard to understand.

Peter said that some things were hard to understand. The quotes I gave you from Paul are extremely plain to understand.

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV) 13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

Ephesians 3:8-9 (NIV) 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

CadyandZoe said: Paul never frames salvation as an offer.

Salvation is always offered through the Gospel preaching, which Paul did throughout his ministry, just as Lord Jesus commanded.

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB) 8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Luke 24:44-47 (EWEB) 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

Colossians 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the Word of God in its fullness — 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Acts 20:20-21 (NIV) 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance [change of mind and purpose] and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

 

[Ritajanice]

You are doing a bang-up job here C+Z. Keep up the great work.

What is missing by most in this type of conversation is the fact as my heart was a witness to it, that 'most' folks are first moved by God to come to salvation, like the first step before preparing our heart for cultivation and then fertilization in planting the holy seed into our heart. We enter into salvation as God moves first by His will to affect/infect our heart with his presence. It is not up to us and our own will at all.

He rattles it and revealed the sin within our heart. Then if our heart/spirit is sincerely and humbly moved by this at all, we then compel ourselves, as our own desire to REPENT to God, as we then have opened the door for God to go to work. It is a holy spiritual affair, of God's will that brings salvation to us, not as a quiet, even sincere space of time where we decide alone when and how to make a decision one day to be saved. I question one's salvation when one says it is this way, and its a decision based on my free-will. It makes me gringe, especially because that never happened to me when God one day gave me his Spirit through his Son. Our will at the moment, prior to and after receiving the Spirit of God is completely yielded or arrested and suppressed by our choice because of God's overwhelming presence and our sense of love for him. We are made this way, to come to our Creator in awe of his presence, and give ourselves to him, to perform his surgery on us, as the fragile mortal and human being that we are in comparison.

.....Blessings to you and your work here...

I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.

For me, and as God’s word says....we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that’s His “ Living “ word....that one must receive into ones heart/spirit...the Living Spirit gives birth to spirit.....it’s by the Living word of God that we become His Spiritual children....not by “ our word”....

Faith is Alive And Active and must be planted into our spirit by God’s Living word, in other words His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit...so very simple to understand...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that’s it, a done deal.....then we are heirs with Christ, we then grow and mature in the Spirit.....as the word of God is Alive and Active.

Faith is also a manifestation of the Spirit...without God’s witness who resides in our spirit permanently....how can we get to know God through his Living word / Spirit.....we can’t!

A Born Again produces fruit of the Spirit....there is no fruit in our spirit....that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit by the Will Of God....it’s a Supernatural/ Spiritual event m that in my case, blew me socks off......

My opinion and belief 100%.

I’m not here to ram it down some peoples throats that they have it all wrong....but, I will always give all the Glory to God regarding my second Spiritual birth.....God did it all.....the Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth that is....no man or woman on the planet could ever....Spirit gives birth to spirit....I am Born Of The Spirit, 100% now belong to God....who can do whatever he likes with this child of His....He has my heart/ spirit 100% Praise His Holy Name!

Because I am his child, my will, will always come inline with His, eventually, he chose me for His Purpose and plan, I am not my own anymore......a Born Again...Will always GLORIFY GOD.......I died when I became Born Again.......I no longer live, God lives in me...I’m His property as was bought for a price....Jesus was that price.

 

[APAK]

I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.

For me, and as God’s word says....we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that’s His “ Living “ word....that one must receive into ones heart/spirit...the Living Spirit gives birth to spirit.....it’s by the Living word of God that we become His Spiritual children....not by “ our word”....

Faith is Alive And Active and must be planted into our spirit by God’s Living word, in other words His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit...so very simple to understand...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that’s it, a done deal.....then we are heirs with Christ, we then grow and mature in the Spirit.....as the word of God is Alive and Active.

Faith is also a manifestation of the Spirit...without God’s witness who resides in our spirit permanently....how can we get to know God through his Living word / Spirit.....we can’t!

A Born Again produces fruit of the Spirit....there is no fruit in our spirit....that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit by the Will Of God....it’s a Supernatural/ Spiritual event m that in my case, blew me socks off......

My opinion and belief 100%.

I’m not here to ram it down some peoples throats that they have it all wrong....but, I will always give all the Glory to God regarding my second Spiritual birth.....God did it all.....the Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth that is....no man or woman on the planet could ever....Spirit gives birth to spirit....I am Born Of The Spirit, 100% now belong to God....who can do whatever he likes with this child of His....He has my heart/ spirit 100% Praise His Holy Name!

Because I am his child, my will, will always come inline with His, eventually, he chose me for His Purpose and plan, I am not my own anymore......a Born Again...Will always GLORIFY GOD.......I died when I became Born Again.......I no longer live, God lives in me...I’m His property as was bought for a price....Jesus was that price.

Well said RJ, and I can really dig what you said here. I see too many folks thinking and believing that possessing the Spirit of the Son and of the Father is purely an intellectual human decision and exercise, from start to finish; from what I read, anyway. It is God's calling and his method of saving us, not ours. When one reads we must believe and in faith or obey commandments these terms MUST be unpacked.

Leaving them at the surface level as in reading those words in scripture as in any human derived book, will not save anyone at all. They are 'dead' operative words without the Spirit. The Spirit of God must come 'alive' in them, into the reader, into their heart. These words must activate and arouse the heart completely...

 

[Ritajanice]

Well said RJ, and I can really dig what you said here. I see too many folks thinking and believing that possessing the Spirit of the Son and of the Father is purely an intellectual human decision and exercise, from start to finish; from what I read, anyway

Short commentary.

Discernment ultimately depends on the Holy Spirit. As we are filled with and controlled by the Spirit of God, He makes us discerning. He leads us into all truth by granting us hunger for God's Word and the ability to discern its true meaning — something the “natural man” is incapable of doing (1 Corinthians 2:14).

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[marks]

Paul never frames salvation as an offer.

The Gospel is a command. We are commanded to believe.

Why? For a dog and pony show?

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 KJV
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Isn't Paul here urging others to receive the reconciliation? But not having been offered?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Have you never read that "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in love"? This is a clear elucidation of the concept of predestination.

Jesus is the Elect Servant. All who are in Christ share what He has, including His election. We were chosen "in Him". We are not "in Him" until we are reborn.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.

For me, and as God’s word says....we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that’s His “ Living “ word....that one must receive into ones heart/spirit...the Living Spirit gives birth to spirit.....it’s by the Living word of God that we become His Spiritual children....not by “ our word”....

Faith is Alive And Active and must be planted into our spirit by God’s Living word, in other words His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit...so very simple to understand...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that’s it, a done deal.....then we are heirs with Christ, we then grow and mature in the Spirit.....as the word of God is Alive and Active.

Faith is also a manifestation of the Spirit...without God’s witness who resides in our spirit permanently....how can we get to know God through his Living word / Spirit.....we can’t!

A Born Again produces fruit of the Spirit....there is no fruit in our spirit....that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit by the Will Of God....it’s a Supernatural/ Spiritual event m that in my case, blew me socks off......

My opinion and belief 100%.

I’m not here to ram it down some peoples throats that they have it all wrong....but, I will always give all the Glory to God regarding my second Spiritual birth.....God did it all.....the Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth that is....no man or woman on the planet could ever....Spirit gives birth to spirit....I am Born Of The Spirit, 100% now belong to God....who can do whatever he likes with this child of His....He has my heart/ spirit 100% Praise His Holy Name!

Because I am his child, my will, will always come inline with His, eventually, he chose me for His Purpose and plan, I am not my own anymore......a Born Again...Will always GLORIFY GOD.......I died when I became Born Again.......I no longer live, God lives in me...I’m His property as was bought for a price....Jesus was that price.

Yes, "Born Again" is simple, and is explained to Nicodemus by Lord Jesus.

On the subject of being “born again” in (John 3:8), Nicodemus’ questions “How can these things be?” (John 3:9). After rebuking Nicodemus, Lord Jesus answers Nicodemus in “John 3:13-18.” Lord Jesus is teaching to Nicodemus, and to all of us, how these things can be; in that, the new birth of the Spirit is the eternal life of God. The indwelling Spirit is eternal life, and we possess that eternal life by faith after hearing the Gospel Word. We pass out of spiritual death onto life by faith, not so we can believe (John 5:24).

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

From what I understand from what you wrote, and I agree with, salvation is 100% God's work in those who believe after hearing the Gospel about Christ Jesus; for, "The Promise" is by faith in the Son of God (Romans 4:15-17).

 

[marks]

No Scripture teaches that God created anyone repenting and believing; rather, God patiently urges, reasons with, pleads with, commands, admonishes, and warns everyone to repent and believe (Romans 2:4-6; Acts 17:30; Isaiah 1:18-20; Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 33:11; Jeremiah 32:33; Acts 7:51-57; Jeremiah 18:10-12; Matthew 22:3; Matthew 23:37; Isaiah 45:21-22; and so many more).

To me, this is the heart of the matter.

God calls us to repent and believe, in all the ways you've said. And that's all nonsense, disengenuous, dishonest, if in fact man doesn't make that choice.

An anology . . . line up 10 men who have an appendix about to burst . . . tell them all . . . You must be operated on! I urge you to be operated on! If you don't you will die! I plead with you, be operated on! And the surgeon comes in, points to 2 of them, "prep them for surgery", and those two are wheeled away, to be saved, while the other 8 remain, the words still in their ears, "Please be operated on!", but no one to perform the surgery. The surgeon didn't choose them, they will die.

I believe God is honest and true, and therefore I disbelieve the so-called Doctrines of Grace, which make God to be a liar.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, "Born Again" is simple, and is explained to Nicodemus by Lord Jesus.

On the subject of being “born again” in (John 3:8), Nicodemus’ questions “How can these things be?” (John 3:9). After rebuking Nicodemus, Lord Jesus answers Nicodemus in “John 3:13-18.” Lord Jesus is teaching to Nicodemus, and to all of us, how these things can be; in that, the new birth of the Spirit is the eternal life of God.

The New birth Of The Spirit is the eternal life of God?..not biblical.

We are Born Again of imperishable seed?

What has been Born Again of imperishable seed?

Which liveth and abideth forever.....where does this imperishable seed liveth and abideth forever?

The indwelling Spirit is eternal life, and we possess that eternal life by faith after hearing the Gospel Word. We pass out of spiritual death onto life by faith, not so we can believe (John 5:24).

The above is not how God says we are Born Again.

pass out of spiritual death...is that biblical?

I know what spiritual death is as per Gods word says.....I never read “ pass out” of spiritual death, maybe you can point me to scripture please?

GNT
In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.also...

His word says that he has “ quickened”, what has he quickened and how would we know what quickened means?

Ephesians 2:1-3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

How do you possess that eternal life by faith..do you mean your faith?

Faith is a gift from God a manifestation of the Spirit...human faith is no faith at all....you need Supernatural faith from God...Spirit gives birth to spirit.

You don’t become Born Again in the intellect..we are Born of the Spirit ...no one can explain how God births our spirit into his...as it’s a Living supernatural rebirth..

After hearing...I see that very differently...

Hearing comes as we are being supernaturally reborn..Spirit gives birth to spirit , the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children as he’s indwelling us and gifting us HIS Faith to believe, which is a manifestation of the Spirit.

We all initially believe, in Jesus, which we must do, before Spirit gives birth to spirit...that’s the part that only God can do...

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

One can’t believe in Jesus without God given Faith, then one believes, because they have been Born Of The Spirit.

Without the witness “ The Holy Spirit “ whom we receive when we become Born Again, we have become Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.....that is Gods Living seed that we receive into our heart...only God can open our heart to receive His Spirit....

God says we must be Born Again, after that supernatural event, you never stop hearing from God, because we are His “ Spiritual Children”....we then start to grow and mature in the Spirit ..as his word says, without His Spirit we are none of His...

We must receive that vital rebirth, which is Alive....Gods word is His Living word...you don’t receive His “ written” word into your heart....we receive His Living word....which is God’s Spirit...He’s Alive in Spirit....

That’s why His word says...” Spirit gives birth to spirit “. that is the Living rebirth....


We are very much on different paths of Spiritual understanding...which isn’t a problem as long as we don’t “ Force” each other to believe what we believe...

What about those spiritual eyes and ears?