Until you have crucified your flesh with it's lusts, it gets in the way of walking in the Spirit.
Much love!
Are You Dead to Self?
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Much love!
The bible goes much deeper than this. Jesus was crucified. We are also called to be crucified...pulled apart...our bones out of joint.
We KNOW the Spirit by the 1st cut. We can be led on that level. But we are only EMPOWERED to walk by the Spirit after we are pulled "out of joint" ...from our own carnal nature found in the outer man..thus liberating the inner man to be joined to Christ in His life and power.
The Hebrew word for bone (self or self-power) also means POWER. But it is in our weakness that God strengthens us.
As you quoted: "...whilst the Spirit of God is doing the more minute work of separating the spirit from the soul and teaching the believer how to walk after the spirit. How the separation between soul and spirit is carried out in those who thus lay themselves upon the altar (the Cross) and trust the Heavenly High Priest to use the sword of His Word as a knife to do the work in them we see in the calls to the Cross given by the Lord Jesus to His disciples when He walked the earth as man. Jessie Penn-Lewis:Soul & Spirit."
Indeed!
I am not arguing with this. It is the idea of the death of self that I am speaking against. The carnal nature is the outer old man not the self. The inner man is the new man we are to put on. Don't you have a scripture on death to self? I am not trying to put you down. I am only saying that scripture is not saying it according to my understanding.
Since my last post, I'm was now curious into what was said in this OP video..
From the one minute mark to the second minute, I raised a large red flag...a deal breaker for me...
The subject of righteousness....true scriptural righteousness, not the latest Epi-inspired righteousness that I hear has degenerated into a really 'lower' form, of an all inclusive worldly form of righteousness, for all.....aka preaching a false gospel....it is all 'straight up' it says, everyone has it...universally understood!....it says
...and all, all people then understand righteousness and also experience it in their daily lives?? Cow mature to that idea...
Even Paul, before his conversion, never understood, let alone knew the righteousness of God until his eyes were opened up to the truth of the gospel. He was blinded by the law, that ironically revealed sin, his carnality and self-righteousness of his previous works; he always considered righteous' and they were not, indeed. These were works of a 'dead' man.
And then the latest Epi-teach of the clear separation of righteousness and Holiness...another Red one raised...and then to say the NT or revised Covenant is for holiness only...Wow!
Righteousness as a Gift from God
Righteousness is a gift from God, made possible ONLY through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. As the Bible says concerning holiness, “By his will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10). This means that righteousness is not something we can achieve on our own, but rather it is a gift that is given to us by God.
Holiness as the Fruit of Righteousness
Holiness, on the other hand, is the fruit of righteousness. It is the manifestation of righteousness in one’s life, and it is the result of being made holy by God.
As the Bible says, “Holiness is the fruit of righteousness”
(Mat 5:20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This means that when we are righteous, we will naturally exhibit holy behavior, and our lives will be characterized by holiness. We are living at that time truly in the light, in the Kingdom of God as He intended it so. We experience glimpses. momentary sinless and holy living of/in the Kingdom, in our lives, and we 'see/experience' more of these glimpses as we mature, and we want to 'keep going there' more.
And we do not really become more holy in this maturity process, we just become more frequent and willing visitors into the Kingdom of eternity - this is our holy walk!
The Connection Between Righteousness and Holiness
To have righteousness, one must also have holiness, and vice versa. As the Bible says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8-9). And this means that unconfessed sin is the number one cause of not leading a mostly holy life. So, if we comply, and confess/repent we will surely mature and become more visible in the Kingdom for it.
The NT, in one major purpose, is designed for those gifted with BOTH righteousness AND thus holiness, and not just the latter. It is because God cannot be worshipped and share his being with us without these two spiritual qualities; present in the inner man, new man, new self.
//
And then there is the Spirit of God, given to both to our Savior and us, of His 7 spirits, that make these two gifts of righteousness and holiness become active/alive in our lives...for another discussion....and it is an exciting topic..
From the one minute mark to the second minute, I raised a large red flag...a deal breaker for me...
The subject of righteousness....true scriptural righteousness, not the latest Epi-inspired righteousness that I hear has degenerated into a really 'lower' form, of an all inclusive worldly form of righteousness, for all.....aka preaching a false gospel....it is all 'straight up' it says, everyone has it...universally understood!....it says
...and all, all people then understand righteousness and also experience it in their daily lives?? Cow mature to that idea...
Even Paul, before his conversion, never understood, let alone knew the righteousness of God until his eyes were opened up to the truth of the gospel. He was blinded by the law, that ironically revealed sin, his carnality and self-righteousness of his previous works; he always considered righteous' and they were not, indeed. These were works of a 'dead' man.
And then the latest Epi-teach of the clear separation of righteousness and Holiness...another Red one raised...and then to say the NT or revised Covenant is for holiness only...Wow!
To have righteousness we must have holiness, period!
In the Bible, righteousness is often described as a state of being that is acceptable to God, while holiness/sanctification is the manifestation/revelation of that righteousness in one’s life. They cannot be separated! ONE CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER!Righteousness as a Gift from God
Righteousness is a gift from God, made possible ONLY through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. As the Bible says concerning holiness, “By his will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10). This means that righteousness is not something we can achieve on our own, but rather it is a gift that is given to us by God.
Holiness as the Fruit of Righteousness
Holiness, on the other hand, is the fruit of righteousness. It is the manifestation of righteousness in one’s life, and it is the result of being made holy by God.
As the Bible says, “Holiness is the fruit of righteousness”
(Mat 5:20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This means that when we are righteous, we will naturally exhibit holy behavior, and our lives will be characterized by holiness. We are living at that time truly in the light, in the Kingdom of God as He intended it so. We experience glimpses. momentary sinless and holy living of/in the Kingdom, in our lives, and we 'see/experience' more of these glimpses as we mature, and we want to 'keep going there' more.
And we do not really become more holy in this maturity process, we just become more frequent and willing visitors into the Kingdom of eternity - this is our holy walk!
The Connection Between Righteousness and Holiness
To have righteousness, one must also have holiness, and vice versa. As the Bible says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8-9). And this means that unconfessed sin is the number one cause of not leading a mostly holy life. So, if we comply, and confess/repent we will surely mature and become more visible in the Kingdom for it.
The NT, in one major purpose, is designed for those gifted with BOTH righteousness AND thus holiness, and not just the latter. It is because God cannot be worshipped and share his being with us without these two spiritual qualities; present in the inner man, new man, new self.
//
And then there is the Spirit of God, given to both to our Savior and us, of His 7 spirits, that make these two gifts of righteousness and holiness become active/alive in our lives...for another discussion....and it is an exciting topic..
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I am dead to sin and Alive in the spirit.
I have been Born Again of imperishable seed.
Therefore my flesh has been crucified, it’s my old mindset that is being renewed to have the mind of Christ.
I live in this flesh and bone body until it goes back into the ground.
My spirit is in Christ Spirit.
By the witness, His Holy Spirit.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
I have been Born Again of imperishable seed.
Therefore my flesh has been crucified, it’s my old mindset that is being renewed to have the mind of Christ.
| Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. New Living Translation Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. English Standard Version And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Berean Standard Bible Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. |
I live in this flesh and bone body until it goes back into the ground.
My spirit is in Christ Spirit.
By the witness, His Holy Spirit.
Romans 6
New International Version
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
I have given this idea of righteousness and holiness are not the same thing some thought. It is because I recognize that one can fall from the position of holiness or entire sanctification, or as I like to use the patristic version - theosis, back to the Illumination stage whereby one knows the full gospel but is not living it atm. But I cannot go with the idea that his category can include those who are not even calling themselves Christians and can be Hindu, Islam etc. No!
In the same way, I cannot call Job righteous, not to mean a holy man of God from the start. Satan challenged God over this point, that he could make Job sin but he failed. Job was tempted to use his human reasoning but did not fall into sin. He saw at last God through spiritual eyes fully. That makes maturity.
One thing I must ask of epi, is to state his influencers and whose theology he is following on this matter. I am not arguing about second blessing holiness here.
It is basically just asking for transparency for the sake of discussion - surely a reasonable thing for those seeking for truth?
In the same way, I cannot call Job righteous, not to mean a holy man of God from the start. Satan challenged God over this point, that he could make Job sin but he failed. Job was tempted to use his human reasoning but did not fall into sin. He saw at last God through spiritual eyes fully. That makes maturity.
One thing I must ask of epi, is to state his influencers and whose theology he is following on this matter. I am not arguing about second blessing holiness here.
It is basically just asking for transparency for the sake of discussion - surely a reasonable thing for those seeking for truth?
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
We are only in the righteousness of Christ.
When our spirit is Born Again, that is a Living spiritual rebirth..only the Living Holy Spirit can do that.
We are always learning in the spirit.
When our spirit is Born Again, that is a Living spiritual rebirth..only the Living Holy Spirit can do that.
We are always learning in the spirit.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Buddhism is a false doctrine attributed to a rich morbidly obese prince of India who found himself unable to comprehend sickness and death,after losing people close to him.Epi I am sure you know and perhaps some others here, that I am in full agreement with the ideas of crucified with Christ or in other words, second blessing holiness (or the higher walk as epi calls it).
However once we get down to the details, I do not agree with the popular idea that it means 'death to self'. In fact. that idea is from philosophy as found in eastern religions like Buddhism, who are told that there is no self, it is a construct of our minds and we should search for 'no self' to achieve happiness in this life.
This site explains it:
Anātman, the Buddhist Doctrine of No-Self: Why ‘You’ Do Not Really Exist | Philosophy Break
Often misunderstood as denying personhood, the Buddhist doctrine of no-self (anātman) simply aims to deflate the grasping ego. By seeing ourselves for what we really are — bundles of ever-changing processes — we can undermine anxiety, and live more peaceful lives.philosophybreak.com
It might seem to be nothing important, but we must note that scripture does not confirm it. Rather scripture says that we must DENY ourselves, and the flesh or old man should be crucified. Old man is not self.
“Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. John 12:24
There is no verse that says it is self that is to die. Self is neutral and contains the will. It serves something or someone. Self is given a new master when flesh has been crucified. As Christianity is now being invaded on all sides and poisoned within, we much be doubly sure we follow what scripture says.
Eastern thoughts have been coming into the church for a long time and if we suddenly get Christians to be like Buddhists and longing for annihilation, what other points will they join on? It is a big deal which will perhaps increase as time goes on towards the one worlld religion..
After sitting in meditation beneath a giant fig tree he arrived at an "enlightened" answer regarding his quandary. ( why sickness and death?)
It's an illusion!
Life is suffering.
If life is an illusion so too is suffering.
Now his supposed reincarnated self lives in the very real oppulent palace in Tibet. And is glad in pure silk stitched together with real gold thread.
What Idolatrous Buddhism teaches is nonsense. And of no import to Christians.
I'm using only biblical terminology. The New Man is Christ that we put onto the inner man. The outer man is the old clothing. Christ is the new clothing. Again, death is separation...becoming disconnected from the carnal sin nature. If you read Romans 7 it talks about not being able to take on a new husband until the old one is DEAD, When he is dead the wife is now free to marry another. Consider that...
We are married to our sin nature...the covering of the outer man. When the outer man is cut away we (inner man) are free to take on a new covering...Christ.
I don't know anyone who believes in second blessing holiness would argue with that.
The old man, the sin nature, the flesh is crucified with Christ and must be dead - zilch - no more. Romans 6, 7 & 8 explains the highway to holiness for the believer. Still nothing to do with self which scripture says must be denied. You are confusing the two.
Still no admission of which theology or teacher you follow epi. Not a good example to others for discussion.
The old man, the sin nature, the flesh is crucified with Christ and must be dead - zilch - no more. Romans 6, 7 & 8 explains the highway to holiness for the believer. Still nothing to do with self which scripture says must be denied. You are confusing the two.
Still no admission of which theology or teacher you follow epi. Not a good example to others for discussion.
I follow Christ and I read the bible. :) Testimony is better than theology. Testimony is real experience...theology is based on suppositions.
Romans 7 is about Paul discovering a deeper sin within him. Sin revived and he died.
1. The Old Man is the old self. The New Man is Christ.
2. When we put off the Old Man we enter into Romans 7...to realize we are in the wilderness walk. (Read Exodus). This is the first cut. Salvation from the world. But so many perish in the wilderness AFTER they are saved. There remains a salvation FROM sin...from the power of the flesh.
3. The experience of every believer is that being regenerated into a new creature is NOT ENOUGH to stop sinning.
4. To overcome sin we need to have an ONGOING crucified outer man. Otherwise the flesh kicks in (default) and we do what we don't want to do...sin.
5. Don't confuse the second blessing with the need to be pulled out from the outer man. We can only PUT ON Christ if we have been uncovered. If that happens at the first cut....the Old Man being put off....then such believers as the Laodiceans would not be seen as being NAKED...in spite of claiming to be covered. (the covering is the outer man...now a religious outer man).
6. The Old Man is NOT the outer man. The Old Man is who we were....BEFORE regeneration. After regeneration we go into the wilderness part of our walk as a mixture...work out your own salvation... Many are called, few chosen...etc
7. The outer man is the cross we carry...as disciples...the burden of sins we take to Jesus...Come to Me all who are burdened.. in the wilderness or again as a shelter (a succah) UNTIL we are crucified. Then the cross of Christ carries us. His burden is light.
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Of course a disciple can be dealt with by the Lord without understanding all the ins and outs of God's way in Christ. Paul is relating his testimony in Romans. It's too easy to misunderstand Paul into thinking he was inventing a doctrine to just believe in rather than be explaining what will happen if you are serious about seeking God and He actually responds and begins your training. So then a testimony is better than a doctrinal stance or a theology.
The problem arises when people try to understand the bible without the experience of what is being talked about.
The problem arises when people try to understand the bible without the experience of what is being talked about.
I asked you about where you got your teaching about righteous non Christians and made it clear that l was not asking about holiness doctrine and no, theology if it is the real thing, is based on revelation not presuppositions. But l don't need to know where that came from. The same place as mine l assume, revelation, scriptural confirmation then other writings in accordance.
The greater problem is people putting their experience over the teaching of Scripture, or refusing to view their experience through the lens of Scripture.
Many people have many experiences and become greatly confused by them. Let the one who has a dream share their dream, but let the one who has the Word of God share that, for what is the chaff to the wheat?
Experience-based doctrine is subjective, one's opinions. And that's a huge problem.
Much love!
Scripture plainly shows otherwise:
Romans 6:3-12 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
If your experience is that you are unable to stop sinning, you need to ask yourself, which should I listen to, my experience, or God? Refusing to believe God because you don't see it with you eyes is also contrary to God's Word, which instructs us - yes, instructs us, even in the NT - that our walk is NOT by sight, but is rather by faith.
Much love!
Jesus said that we didn't need anyone to teach us...and by necessity that's all I had...and it was very good that I was forced to go to God. No man understands these things. So my experiences with God make sense as I read the testimony of the New Testament. Putting that together with the prophecies of the OT...and I have 3 witnesses. I can triangulate a sound doctrine based on 3 different axis. I believe that what I teach is very precise as the more I look into it...the more evidence I find. After each podcast I go...man, I should have touched on THAT too. Confirmation on confirmation. Over years and decades. :)
You are refuting Paul in Romans 7. And you do sin...maybe not in a way that is physical or obvious...but then again the Pharisees didn't recognize anything they did as sin either...yet EVERYTHING they did was tinged with sin.
Paul was very sensitive to that. unlike those who remain in Romans 6 thinking that Romans 8 is just more of the same. It would be like thinking that the Promised Land was located somewhere in Sinai.
Paul had to re-calibrate his understanding by going through Romans 7.....not by going back to Romans 6 and the initial salvation...staying in the first step of the race and burying his talent there for safe keeping there...no! Instead he went through the agonizing realization that he was still sold under sin AFTER being regenerated. Sin revived and he died...fell away from the presence of God. That's when he learned the true nature of the soul and the full measure of salvation that is waiting for us at the cross. Without the seeking, crying out and full surrender to God...there can be no Romans 8. NO victory over sin, the world and the devil.
Remaining in Romans 7 is too hard for most people...too scandalous. It's much easier to claim the done dead and stay in the very first step of the race....never to go beyond what a human can do in their own strength.
Don't just toss out empty accusations. Put some meat to it. Use Scripture. Stick to what it says. Don't misrepresent me. No presumptions or other empty accusations. And if you do these things, maybe we can have a conversation.
We will need to begin with first things, like, what regeneration actually is. And yes, we will begin in Romans 6 on that. Not that we will only be in Romans 6. But first things first.
Much love!
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