The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rebuilder 454]

Paul is not saying that the moment are absent from the body we are immediately present with the Lord. He teaches us that at the last trump we will rise from the dead and meet the Lord in the air.

Then what are all those people doing in heaven in the book of Revelation?
From the martyrs to the one John tried to worship, which was outside the vision.
That MAN in heaven, even declared who he was.
Not only that, but the thief on the cross was told that he would be with Jesus in spirit in Paradise that same day. And there was no Resurrection connected to that statement

 

[rebuilder 454]

Faith is believing what is true. Faith is not believing without proof.

How can you walk up to the barn, shoot at it with the shotgun from 2 ft away .....AND MISS??????

 

[rebuilder 454]

God never talks to me. But the point is, the existence of the Bible is proof that he intends to communicate by the written word. And he intends to be understood. The purpose of the Bible is to reveal mysteries, not to conceal the truth. If a doctrine consists of a mystery we can't understand, it isn't truth.

Whatever you do. don't read revelation, as your methods would be confusing and void the entire vision.
John was told not to write what the 7 spirits uttered.
It remains a mystery.
But will be revealed ,OUTSIDE OF ANYONE'S BIBLE, in due time...as the WORD OF GOD declares.

All the apostles were spoken to DIRECTLY by God.
I have been spoken to many,many times by God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that were true, we would have no need for the written word.

That's like going to the mechanic, and he is forbidden to speak because everything concerning your car is in the shop manual.
He can only hand you the book.

Huh??????

Salvation is a person, not a book.
AHEM..that PERSON TALKS.
His name is Jesus.
Jesus said, "my sheep HEAR MY VOICE"

 

[rebuilder 454]

My point is this: Abraham was in direct contact with God, but we aren't. Our faith is not blind trust because we trust the scriptures.

The reason all men sin is because they do not trust the scriptures.

" walk in the spirit and YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH"
YET THEY DO.

What a dilemma.
You confess you do not walk in the spirit, (never hear God) and yet you would need to trust the bible,telling you to walk in the spirit.

The point is, the God of the Bible, and his book, are SPIRIT.
NOT MENTAL MANS ATTEMPT TO CORRECT WHAT HIS BOOK SAYS.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I get it, you mean that folks trusted God for things that they didn't see. But we are talking about faith, not trust. Trust can be blind, but faith is never blind.

From Websters
FAITH

Synonyms & Similar Words

confidence
trust
certainty
credence
conviction
assurance
acceptance
stock
hope
certitude
positiveness
reliance
surety
assuredness
sureness
credit
dependence
dependance

 

[rebuilder 454]

BTW
Muslims, with no bible or bible verses,and no evangelists are getting saved!!!!
Jesus is appearing to them in dreams and visions .
Meanwhile Christians here think salvation is verses and a bible.
They NEVER hear Gods voice..

Poor poor Americans and their abstract Jesus.
What is going on???????

 

[CadyandZoe]

I give you an "f" in comprehension.
" pretending" by being in QUOTE, would point to "not literally".
Show me where I said pretending, as you are erroneously implying.
But I actually knew you would do just that, as you are now just trolling the subject.

You don't need to be like this with me. I am not like some who berate those with whom they disagree. So, if I misconstrued what you said, it wasn't on purpose and I like to keep the conversation friendly. :)

But yes FAITH WOULD BE LIKE "PRETENDING" THE WORD IS TRUE.
PSSST...THAT MEANS "BELIEVING AND ACTING" AS IF IT IS TRUE.

What happened to the thoughtful person you displayed a few days ago?

I suppose we are talking past each other and I don't fully understand what you are saying. I apologize.

Hey if you think the concept of, "faith inseparable with trust", is some bogey man, that is upsetting your entire "faith"...then start a thread correcting us that are in such error.
Prove your point .

I don't understand this.

I am batting the air with your "mind over bible concepts".

I don't understand this.

You present the exact opposite of what the Bible reads, and defend it with white knuckles.

We are discussing the definition of the word "faith." You and I disagree on the meaning.

Let me ask you a question that might help me understand your position better. I looked up the word "faith" in the dictionary and it defines "faith" as "believing a truth claim without evidence." I take issue with that definition.

Do you agree with the dictionary?

(note: this is not a "gotcha question". I want to have a friendly conversation. )

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then what are all those people doing in heaven in the book of Revelation?

I do better if I know what text we are discussing. Can you remind me of the passage?

From the martyrs to the one John tried to worship, which was outside the vision.

Passage?

That MAN in heaven, even declared who he was.

Passage?
Thanks in advance for your help. As I say, I do better if I know what text is under discussion.

Not only that, but the thief on the cross was told that he would be with Jesus in spirit in Paradise that same day. And there was no Resurrection connected to that statement

What do you suppose Jesus meant by "Paradise"?

I take note of the following passage.

John 20:17
Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Jesus claims that he has not yet ascended to the Father. This seems to disabuse our notion that Paradise is heaven doesn't it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can you walk up to the barn, shoot at it with the shotgun from 2 ft away .....AND MISS??????

I don't understand.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's like going to the mechanic, and he is forbidden to speak because everything concerning your car is in the shop manual.
He can only hand you the book.

I don't understand your analogy.

Huh??????

Salvation is a person, not a book.
AHEM..that PERSON TALKS.
His name is Jesus.
Jesus said, "my sheep HEAR MY VOICE"

And Jesus said, "Blessed are those who don't hear his voice and believe." He anticipated that many of his disciples would not hear him speak directly, gaining information about him through indirect means such as the Bible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The reason all men sin is because they do not trust the scriptures.

We are not talking about trusting the scriptures. We are talking about understanding the scriptures. We both agree that the scriptures should be trusted, but where you and I seem to differ is whether understanding the scriptures is required.

" walk in the spirit and YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH"
YET THEY DO.

What a dilemma.
You confess you do not walk in the spirit, (never hear God) and yet you would need to trust the bible,telling you to walk in the spirit.

I walk in the Spirit, yes.

The point is, the God of the Bible, and his book, are SPIRIT.
NOT MENTAL MANS ATTEMPT TO CORRECT WHAT HIS BOOK SAYS.

The Bible is not spirit. The Bible records what God said and what Jesus taught, written in normal human language.

 

[Keraz]

Then what are all those people doing in heaven in the book of Revelation?
From the martyrs to the one John tried to worship, which was outside the vision.
That MAN in heaven, even declared who he was.
Not only that, but the thief on the cross was told that he would be with Jesus in spirit in Paradise that same day. And there was no Resurrection connected to that statement

Your belief directly opposes scripture.
The dead know nothing and they 'sleep' in the grave, until they stand before God at the final Judgment. Eccl 9:5, Acts 13:36, +
Jesus and the repentant thief did not go to paradise immediately. and neither does anybody.

When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him, Rev 20:4, the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over, Rev 20:5 This Bible truth refutes your wrong belief of people going straight to heaven at death.

Poor poor Americans and their abstract Jesus.
What is going on???????

Your foolishness and arrant criticism is unpleasant at best and disgusting at worst.
Jesus is with His faithful Christian people; Spiritually , as He Promised several times. Matthew 28:19-20

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your belief directly opposes scripture.
The dead know nothing and they 'sleep' in the grave, until they stand before God at the final Judgment. Eccl 9:5, Acts 13:36, +
Jesus and the repentant thief did not go to paradise immediately. and neither does anybody.

When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him, Rev 20:4, the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over, Rev 20:5 This Bible truth refutes your wrong belief of people going straight to heaven at death.

Your foolishness and arrant criticism is unpleasant at best and disgusting at worst.
Jesus is with His faithful Christian people; Spiritually , as He Promised several times. Matthew 28:19-20

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't understand your analogy.

And Jesus said, "Blessed are those who don't hear his voice and believe." He anticipated that many of his disciples would not hear him speak directly, gaining information about him through indirect means such as the Bible.

Jn 20
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Does not say anything about hearing or not hearing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I do better if I know what text we are discussing. Can you remind me of the passage?

Passage?

Passage?
Thanks in advance for your help. As I say, I do better if I know what text is under discussion.

What do you suppose Jesus meant by "Paradise"?

I take note of the following passage.

John 20:17
Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Jesus claims that he has not yet ascended to the Father. This seems to disabuse our notion that Paradise is heaven doesn't it?

The Bible says paradise was adjacent to hell , under the earth.
Jesus went there when he died.
The patriarchs were held there when they died.
The Bible says Jesus preached the gospel to them and they accepted it and they were raised from the dead and they went to heaven with Jesus basically we believe that paradise is now in heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your belief directly opposes scripture.
The dead know nothing and they 'sleep' in the grave, until they stand before God at the final Judgment. Eccl 9:5, Acts 13:36, +
Jesus and the repentant thief did not go to paradise immediately. and neither does anybody.

When Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him, Rev 20:4, the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over, Rev 20:5 This Bible truth refutes your wrong belief of people going straight to heaven at death.

Your foolishness and arrant criticism is unpleasant at best and disgusting at worst.
Jesus is with His faithful Christian people; Spiritually , as He Promised several times. Matthew 28:19-20

Rev22
8 And I am John, which saw and heard these things: and when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the Angel which showed me these things.

9 But he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the Prophets, and of them which keep the words of this book: worship God.

Men in heaven.
Lots of them.

Stop attacking me, and doing what you accuse me of.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't need to be like this with me. I am not like some who berate those with whom they disagree. So, if I misconstrued what you said, it wasn't on purpose and I like to keep the conversation friendly. :)

I suppose we are talking past each other and I don't fully understand what you are saying. I apologize.

I don't understand this.

I don't understand this.

We are discussing the definition of the word "faith." You and I disagree on the meaning.

Let me ask you a question that might help me understand your position better. I looked up the word "faith" in the dictionary and it defines "faith" as "believing a truth claim without evidence." I take issue with that definition.

Do you agree with the dictionary?

(note: this is not a "gotcha question". I want to have a friendly conversation. )

You ask questions that you already have answers for.
None of my answers are "correct"
Yours "are"
That IS your position.

Waste of time

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jn 20
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Does not say anything about hearing or not hearing.

Thomas wanted to not only see the Lord before he could confidently accept that Jesus had been raised from the dead, he also wanted to touch him. Jesus provided the kind of proof Thomas was looking for - empirical knowledge. Then, he blessed those who believed without being able to touch and see the risen Lord as Thomas did.

Unlike Thomas, our belief is not based on physical encounters. Instead, we have the Bible, a written record of Jesus's teachings and actions, as our source of knowledge and testimony. In addition, the Spirit of God, acting as the spirit of truth, convicting us of sin, judgment and righteousness.

The point is, unless otherwise necessary, we don't hear directly from the Lord. We are led by the Spirit and the scriptures.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Bible says paradise was adjacent to hell , under the earth.
Jesus went there when he died.
The patriarchs were held there when they died.
The Bible says Jesus preached the gospel to them and they accepted it and they were raised from the dead and they went to heaven with Jesus basically we believe that paradise is now in heaven.

Can you point me to some passages?