NotTheRock
Well-Known Member
It was a suggestion, not a commandment. Paul was encouraging them, not commanding them.
What are some of the reasons people don’t like going to church buildings or institutionalized churches?
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It was a suggestion, not a commandment. Paul was encouraging them, not commanding them.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I agree about gathering - Jesus said "where 2 or more are gathered in MY Name I am there" good enough for me!
but what about elders, bishops in the scriptures?
To say that we are violating Scripture unless we also "attend church" in the building of an ecclesiastical corporation with a credentialed seminary graduate in the spotlight, is simply preposterous, a remnant of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not a shred of evidence to support such an ecclesiastical requirement, and the whole of Scripture seems to go against it. The movement in the Bible is away from ceremony and limited special priesthood, and toward decentralization, an every-believer priesthood, and a return to direct communication with God through His Spirit.
Our failure as believers to implement this truth comes from our friendship with the world, and conformity thereto (Romans 12:1-2; James 4:4). It seems strange to us to think of a household communion. In our culture, Grandparents live in their own house, Aunts and Uncles are likewise separated from their Nieces and Nephews, and it is "trendy" for children to move out of their parents' house as soon as they possibly can. In our day "the Family" has been described as one or two working parents and (maybe) 2.2 children (recently down to 1.8).
If we were to take a first-century believer (or even a modern-day member of a number of non-western cultures) up into an airplane over Southern California, and showed them city after city of single-family dwellings, all packed in like sardines, row after row, with parents in one house, children in another, grandparents in another, aunts and uncles in still another, and the poor and homeless wasting away in the abandoned section of industrial parks and urban ghettos (where the suburban dwellers have coercively zoned them) our passenger would cry. Then he might become enraged: "This is sick! This is an abomination! I could never have imagined such atomism and selfish isolationism!" Little does he know that even among those houses where parents and children dwell together, it is little more than a motel, with students and commuters simply dropping in to sleep at night. In this land there is no property -- genuine property -- over which fruitful, honest dominion can be exercised unhindered by banks or landlords. It is a nation of slaves. Where in our land is an Abraham, with hundreds of adopted children, hundreds of domestic apprentices, hundreds of the poor and needy receiving shelter, hundreds of illiterate orphans being educated and brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and several generations of Family in blessed contact and harmonious community? Well, if we believe the churchmen, that ideal is clearly unattainable: we live in the New Covenant, and we do not have the Spiritual resources which Abraham had under the Old Covenant. Right?
Does Ephesians 5:19 - 6:24 command anything that cannot be fulfilled in "informal" Family-gatherings? The idea of Family communion is in our (atomistic, self-centered) day rightly ridiculed. We are not Patriarchs; we are children. How we cherish the churchmen, who only require us to "worship" in their church one day each week, and then dismiss us to watch our TV's in isolated silence.
We should always be conscious of Christ's Presence "where two or three are gathered in My Name." Whenever we obey the command to assemble together for praising God, Scripture reading and study, exhortation and comfort, prayer and singing, and remembering the Lord's death in the communal meal, we are clearly engaging in a very special activity.
Remember, the "Church" does not save anybody, only our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can save us (John 3:17; 10:9, Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:31, Romans 10:9,13).
PS95
Well-Known Member
My question is unanswered. The apostles has set up bishops or whatever you want to call them... and elders and deacons. So does that sound like a small group gathering of 2 or 3? Not to me. How do you explain that? It is clearly not small groups. They put elders in every city.
If we all abandon churches they will collapse. Is that what you want? Or is that what globalists want? What about a seeker who goes looking for God in a church. Where do they go? To false churches like the JWs or Mormons. People think. Please.
There are many small decent gospel preaching churches- seek those out. Leave the mega money social club churches. Look at things like Samaritans purse and all all of the good we accomplish every day by knowing one another. This idea is not thought through.
Take fellow members and go to your pastors if you seek changes! Pastors are not gods and if he is teaching wrong, we need to set that straight. Find members who agree and get it done. We don't need to hide in our houses like the early church did. we are not in Commie china yet. We stand up not like cowards hiding in our homes like we are scared of a virus!
Stand up- take your churches back- stop teaching falsely. Pastors can be replaced. Who said they need a degree from a corrupted seminary? OH Please. They need the HOLY SPIRIT not a degree!
THIS IS WHAT SATAN WANTS- empty churches.
Seeds were being planted.
"Churches" have already "abandoned" their responsibility; evangelical Christianity is in freefall AS WE SPEAK. Others here have elaborated on what passes for a church and what constitutes an authentic church. I submit that you and I, right here, right now, are of the true church rather than of any co-opted shingle hanging on the street...
We must first scripturally identify what constitutes the real thing before we can effectively identify the pretenders.
Two wrongs never make a right. It's never too late to do the right thing.
This is good!
Pastors are as accountable as anyone. It's to our discredit that we have allowed the "superstar syndrome" to infect our shepherds.
Not yet. But such time is fast approaching. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is (Eph. 5:16).
Amen! (There is no virus, but there are RF's (radio frequencies) that we are being attacked with that "they" are calling infectious disease.)
Indeed. Men are dying by "degrees."
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. (2 Cor. 6:14-17).
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 1:9The term "out of fellowship" also haunts me.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
Philippians 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin
It looks like having fellowship with God is the important thing and that in walking in this light we then have fellowship with other believers. No giant buildings that are bottomless money pits needed. Also, no fellowship with evil governments and payoffs from them needed. We are told if we wish some godspeed, then we are partakers of their bad deeds. By taking the cash from government it seems to me you are becoming partakers of what they are and do. Being separate from the world, as far as I can see, does not mean being joined to them for your very existence to be able to happen. If we took away all tax shelters from churches, could they continue to exist? If some churches spoke the truth to their people about the covid vaccination restrictions that were mandated by governments were to be absolutely disobeyed, would they continue to exist? In a few cases yes, they managed to get through it, though some landed in jail and were fined heavily etc. Even those few depend on the tax deductions etc though.
The bigger risk these days is going to some churches which gets one out of fellowship with Him. Out of obedience to Him. Out of fellowship of the Spirit.
Oh, and by the way 'fellowship of His Son' does not involve building made with hands either. One commentary example:
"
Unto the fellowship of his Son - To participate with his Son Jesus Christ; to be partakers with him; see the notes at John 15:1-8. Christians participate with Christ:
(1) In his feelings and views; Romans 8:9.
(2) In his trials and sufferings, being subjected to temptations and trials similar to his; 1 Peter 4:13, “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings;”Colossians 1:24; Colossians 1:24; Philippians 3:10.
(3) In his heirship to the inheritance and glory which awaits him; Romans 8:17, “And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ;” 1 Peter 1:4.
(4) In his triumph in the resurrection and future glory; Matthew 19:28, “Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;” John 14:19, “Because I live, ye shall live also;” Revelation 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
(Immediately on our union to Christ, we have fellowship with him, in all the blessings of his purchase. This communion or fellowship with him is the necessary result of our union to him. On the saint’s union to Christ, see the supplementary note at Romans 8:10.)"
1 Corinthians 1 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
1 Corinthians 1, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.
www.studylight.org
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
A atheist university professor in NZ set out to prove that Christian charities and churches in NZ shouldn't be given tax exemptions by the government. What she actually proved was that without Christian charities and churches providing their services to the community, the negative effect on society would cost the government more than the tax exemptions.1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
Philippians 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin
It looks like having fellowship with God is the important thing and that in walking in this light we then have fellowship with other believers. No giant buildings that are bottomless money pits needed. Also, no fellowship with evil governments and payoffs from them needed. We are told if we wish some godspeed, then we are partakers of their bad deeds. By taking the cash from government it seems to me you are becoming partakers of what they are and do. Being separate from the world, as far as I can see, does not mean being joined to them for your very existence to be able to happen. If we took away all tax shelters from churches, could they continue to exist? If some churches spoke the truth to their people about the covid vaccination restrictions that were mandated by governments were to be absolutely disobeyed, would they continue to exist? In a few cases yes, they managed to get through it, though some landed in jail and were fined heavily etc. Even those few depend on the tax deductions etc though.
The bigger risk these days is going to some churches which gets one out of fellowship with Him. Out of obedience to Him. Out of fellowship of the Spirit.
Oh, and by the way 'fellowship of His Son' does not involve building made with hands either. One commentary example:
"
Unto the fellowship of his Son - To participate with his Son Jesus Christ; to be partakers with him; see the notes at John 15:1-8. Christians participate with Christ:
(1) In his feelings and views; Romans 8:9.
(2) In his trials and sufferings, being subjected to temptations and trials similar to his; 1 Peter 4:13, “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings;”Colossians 1:24; Colossians 1:24; Philippians 3:10.
(3) In his heirship to the inheritance and glory which awaits him; Romans 8:17, “And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ;” 1 Peter 1:4.
(4) In his triumph in the resurrection and future glory; Matthew 19:28, “Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel;” John 14:19, “Because I live, ye shall live also;” Revelation 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
(Immediately on our union to Christ, we have fellowship with him, in all the blessings of his purchase. This communion or fellowship with him is the necessary result of our union to him. On the saint’s union to Christ, see the supplementary note at Romans 8:10.)"
1 Corinthians 1 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
1 Corinthians 1, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.
Quote: Church Tax Free Status Research
If the thousands of churches in New Zealand paid income tax, the government's coffers would be much richer.
They don't, because most of them are registered religious charities, giving them tax-free status.
That is under review by the government with submissions closing today. But one expert says they should be left alone, including the controversial ones such as Destiny Church and Gloriavale.
Without churches, says Dr Juliet Chevalier-Watts, New Zealand would plunge into poverty and chaos.
"Our societies would be horribly poor and would never recover from that," she says.
And our taxes would rise as the government would have to pick up the work done by the churches' thousands of volunteers, says Chevalier-Watts, associate professor, Te Piringa - Faculty of Law at Waikato University.
She started researching religion and charity law, including the economic impact and value of religious charities more than 10 years ago, with the belief that churches should pay tax.
But she changed her mind and is defending churches as they face losing their tax-free status in a government review, with an announcement expected in the May budget.
Chevalier-Watts and her research colleague Professor Frank Scrimgeour of Waikato University's School of Accounting, Finance and Economics based their research on the hypothesis that churches should not be exempt from paying tax income.
They calculated that the country's 3000 churches that are registered as religious charities and their 65,000-odd volunteers were worth $6.1 billion to the New Zealand economy in 2018 alone.
That excludes indirect benefits and flow-on effects across health and well-being, life-expectancy, employment, finances, education, social cohesion and pro-social behaviour.
Chevalier-Watts says the next phase of research will aim to put a value on that by looking at how the many churches provide food and accommodation, financial and job advice, as well as care for poor and elderly people.
She points out that churches already pay taxes such as PAYE on salaries, and in some cases GST and when it comes to the government's review of the tax-free status of charities, she says churches should be left alone, including Destiny.
"I think it's a very easy target and I think it takes away from what it actually is that Destiny Church does.
"This is not to say that I condone the actions that took place the other week with some members of Destiny Church, certainly not. But also I should make it clear as well that some of those that carried out those acts were not part of Destiny Church.
"For people to leap up and down and say Destiny Church must be stripped immediately of its [charity] registration status, well I think what they really need to be doing is actually looking overall at the real benefits of Destiny Church and what they have contributed to society."
Under scrutiny in the government review are more than 29,000 charities, including churches, which raise funds through their business activities, RNZ money editor Susan Edmunds says.
"They're looking at any loopholes that are being exploited that could mean that charities are avoiding tax that they probably should pay," she says.
For example, questions have been raised over charitable businesses, such as Sanitarium, owned by the Seventh-day Adventist Church and Best Start childcare centres owned by charity Wright Family Foundation, that are competing with non-charitable businesses.
"There's a concern that [because] they don't pay tax they've got a bit of an advantage, or that they might set their prices unsustainably low," Edmunds says.
She says New Zealand has become an international outlier for its charities' tax exemption which has been in place since 1940.
"I don't think there's an easy answer. It will be interesting to see what the government comes up with."
Sue Barker of Charities Law thinks that New Zealand is a world leader, along with Australia, in its tax treatment of charities. She said in her submission that she strongly recommended the proposals not proceed.
"When the approach taken by other jurisdictions is properly examined, it becomes clear they are a cautionary tale rather than a precedent to be followed. The proposals would act as an unnecessary blanket barrier to much-needed charitable work at a time when the charitable sector is already struggling with increasing costs, increasing demand for services yet diminishing revenue streams.
She said any issues with specific charities could be addressed with existing tools, and there was no need to impose unnecessary complexity.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
If are a Holy Spirit indwelled Christian and you are driven to be around Christians in a Church, large or small, God will guide you to a church where you seem to magically fit in. Yes, many Christians know this, but don't realize it is the Holy Spirit guiding them. I am called by Jesus to go to a Church of His choice for me.
James 2
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.
Joshua 1:8 has several commands in it that still apply to this day.
One: know scriptures well enough to recite them from memory.
Two: recite them constantly
Three: meditate on them constantly day and night so that you can figure out how to do everything they say to do.
dad
Well-Known Member
Regardless of how much it would cost the government to feed people and etc the issue is whether a gospel preaching, bible believing, saved group of believers should put their church on the table for the government to chop as desired. If the government says jump, they jump, if they are told no music, they obey. If they are told do not talk about abortions or pray etc they jump into line. If they are told not to meet in person, they bow. If they are told not to post online anything 'hate' filled such as the bible, they obey. Etc etc. If you think a soup kitchen being useful to save government money is the reason a 'church' exists and therefore must accept bribes from big brother at a cost, then I think you better recalculate
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
Not in the USA. Churches have fed the homeless since the 1700's. Charity is the biggest church activity that still exists today. I have been involved with such ministries in 2 states. Food and clothing are given out and thrift stores are everywhere that raise money to help the needy. The gov't does not do squat. It's the churches and volunteers that drive our society. Go jump for you gov't all you want. If you miss a paycheck here, there is a church that will give you a bag of groceries around the corner.
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