Looking at the Statement of Faith

[TheHC]

I understand that the Bible doesn't explicitly state whether Adam and Eve went to heaven or hell after their death.
If you think otherwise I like to see scripture about that.

We do know what God told Adam: “If you eat from that tree, you will die.”

And that’s it!

No explanation of what death is!

That makes you think: did A&E know about death? They must have. How?

Because of seeing animals die, apparently.

Now, if as humans they were going to another realm after death, shouldn’t God have told them?
Something like, “If you eat from that tree, you will die. And what that means, is, you’ll live in a realm alienated from Me / you’ll be tormented forever and ever and ever / you’ll be ____ (add whatever verb you want)”
Wouldn’t that be the loving thing? (Isn’t He a loving God? Certainly!)

But No, God said nothing else!

And when Adam did eventually sin & eat from that tree, what did God tell Adam? He said to Adam: “YOU will return to the ground, because out of it YOU were taken. For dust YOU are and to dust YOU will return.”

(God was talking to Adam the person, not his body.)

Even though humans die because of the sin / imperfection we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12,19), we still die just like animals do. (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20) We decay, and become nothing.
(That’s why God didn’t have to explain death to A&E).

The difference is, humans are promised a *future* resurrection! -John 5:28,29; John 6:40,44; …. Paul stated at Acts 24:15, “I have hope toward God… that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous; the righteous ones to a resurrection of life, and unrighteous ones to a resurrection of judgment.”

Yes, hope of life again, even for the unrighteous!

(This judgment of the unrighteous, is judging how they act / behave after their resurrection. Not the bad things they did before they died. They paid for their previous sins with their death. - Romans 6:7,23)

God is loving to provide this, all made possible through Jesus’ sacrifice. - John 3:16.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Because of seeing animals die, apparently.

Aaah, No. There was zero death in any animated thing before the first human act of disobedience to God's Will took place.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

 

[Brakelite]

There are some assumptions here….first is the clothing that God gave them to replace the fig leaves they sewed together to cover their reproductive parts, due to this new feeling that overwhelmed them….shame.

God demonstrated by the clothing he gave them that minimal or immodest clothing was not sufficient to cover their bodies…..so, with an acquired knowledge of evil, long garments of skin were supplied to them. Where does it say that God killed animals to provide these garments? Didn’t God create the skins on animals? Could he not simply create the garments? I see nowhere that God sacrificed animals to provide their clothing…nor to in any way absolve them. You assume that. As perfect sinless humans there was no basis upon which to forgive them….perfect creatures do not make mistakes…the sin deliberately, which is unforgivable. Adam and his wife forfeited any right to life.

Secondly, there is no mention of Adam and his wife sacrificing anything to Jehovah as a sin offering. Only Cain and Abel offered God a sacrifice, out of gratitude for their bounty…..and who knows if it was God or an angel who directed them to do so…perhaps it was a prelude to the sacrifices that would be mandatory in Israel…?
Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, which was the first hint pictorially, that the Messiah would be “the only begotten son of God”.

Gen 3:15 was not really understood until Christ came and revealed the players. The apostles filled in more about that prophesy.
To the devil God said…..
“ And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

The “woman” was not Eve. The prophecy states that the offspring of the woman would “crush” the serpent’s head. As we know, the serpent is the spirit creature who became Satan the devil, and no imperfect human offspring of Eve’s would have the ability to crush him. Something more was needed…..God provided his son, who came to earth as a man, unrelated genetically to any human offspring of Adam..….and he was given the power of God’s spirit to accomplish the task…..but not yet.

We can assume many things…it doesn’t make them true.

Nowhere is there the slightest hint that A & E repented…..they knew what the penalty was, and never questioned it. What they didn’t know was how long it would take them to die, that close to bodily perfection.
It was only after the flood that the lifespan of humans diminished significantly.

Thirdly, the assignment that God gave the first pair was never rescinded…..they were told to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth” with their offspring, and so after the fall, that assignment was carried out on “cursed ground”, outside of the garden, requiring some protection from the “thorns and thistles” that were part of their new environment.…so modesty and protection was reflected in God’s choice of clothing for them.

But there was part of that original assignment that could no longer be carried out….and that was to “subdue” the land outside the garden. To “subdue” something means to bring it under their control….having the ground cursed, now made that impossible. Noxious weeds would make planting and harvesting food a difficult task.

For the first time, they had to provide their own food.…grown in unyielding soil, it would drive home what they lost in the garden. And inherited sin would prevent them from accomplishing the task to God’s satisfaction….lack of cohesion and cooperation would spoil any efforts.

Those are just some of the things taken from the Genesis account.

All those things you mentioned are quite obvious from the text. Except for the several assumptions you make in order to justify your church's storylines. What you are assuming is that there wasn't more to the story, as well as assuming God's mercy wasn't available to them on account of your judgement regarding the severity of the sin. How do you know they didn't repent? How do you know they couldn't repent? How do you know an animal wasn't sacrificed in order to make skins for clothing? I'm not making any assumptions. I'm going by the biblical typology inherent in the act of God providing clothing for the repentant sinner, and that clothing available only because of sacrifice.
“1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. ”
Zechariah 3:1-4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[Brakelite]

There are some assumptions here….first is the clothing that God gave them to replace the fig leaves they sewed together to cover their reproductive parts, due to this new feeling that overwhelmed them….shame.

God demonstrated by the clothing he gave them that minimal or immodest clothing was not sufficient to cover their bodies…..so, with an acquired knowledge of evil, long garments of skin were supplied to them. Where does it say that God killed animals to provide these garments? Didn’t God create the skins on animals? Could he not simply create the garments? I see nowhere that God sacrificed animals to provide their clothing…nor to in any way absolve them. You assume that. As perfect sinless humans there was no basis upon which to forgive them….perfect creatures do not make mistakes…the sin deliberately, which is unforgivable. Adam and his wife forfeited any right to life.

Secondly, there is no mention of Adam and his wife sacrificing anything to Jehovah as a sin offering. Only Cain and Abel offered God a sacrifice, out of gratitude for their bounty…..and who knows if it was God or an angel who directed them to do so…perhaps it was a prelude to the sacrifices that would be mandatory in Israel…?
Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, which was the first hint pictorially, that the Messiah would be “the only begotten son of God”.

Gen 3:15 was not really understood until Christ came and revealed the players. The apostles filled in more about that prophesy.
To the devil God said…..
“ And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

The “woman” was not Eve. The prophecy states that the offspring of the woman would “crush” the serpent’s head. As we know, the serpent is the spirit creature who became Satan the devil, and no imperfect human offspring of Eve’s would have the ability to crush him. Something more was needed…..God provided his son, who came to earth as a man, unrelated genetically to any human offspring of Adam..….and he was given the power of God’s spirit to accomplish the task…..but not yet.

We can assume many things…it doesn’t make them true.

Nowhere is there the slightest hint that A & E repented…..they knew what the penalty was, and never questioned it. What they didn’t know was how long it would take them to die, that close to bodily perfection.
It was only after the flood that the lifespan of humans diminished significantly.

Thirdly, the assignment that God gave the first pair was never rescinded…..they were told to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth” with their offspring, and so after the fall, that assignment was carried out on “cursed ground”, outside of the garden, requiring some protection from the “thorns and thistles” that were part of their new environment.…so modesty and protection was reflected in God’s choice of clothing for them.

But there was part of that original assignment that could no longer be carried out….and that was to “subdue” the land outside the garden. To “subdue” something means to bring it under their control….having the ground cursed, now made that impossible. Noxious weeds would make planting and harvesting food a difficult task.

For the first time, they had to provide their own food.…grown in unyielding soil, it would drive home what they lost in the garden. And inherited sin would prevent them from accomplishing the task to God’s satisfaction….lack of cohesion and cooperation would spoil any efforts.

Those are just some of the things taken from the Genesis account.

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.

 

[Brakelite]

Because of seeing animals die, apparently.

Jehovah's Witnesses do no favour to God by misrepresenting His character in their stubborn belief in a creation that necessitated the death of creatures in order to evolve. @Aunty Jane told me earlier that I was making assumptions about A&E. Theistic evolution is no less an assumption than the belief in eternal torment or the trinity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All those things you mentioned are quite obvious from the text. Except for the several assumptions you make in order to justify your church's storylines. What you are assuming is that there wasn't more to the story, as well as assuming God's mercy wasn't available to them on account of your judgement regarding the severity of the sin. How do you know they didn't repent? How do you know they couldn't repent? How do you know an animal wasn't sacrificed in order to make skins for clothing? I'm not making any assumptions. I'm going by the biblical typology inherent in the act of God providing clothing for the repentant sinner, and that clothing available only because of sacrifice.

I am saying that what is written in plain terms allows for no interpretation of your church’s theology.
You have filled in the blanks where there weren’t any. Implying something is adding to the story…where does it say that God sacrificed animals to clothe Adam and his wife? Where was Adam told about life after death?
What basis did they have for repentance when they sinned deliberately without a sin nature taking them in a wrong direction? There was no excuse for what they chose to do of their own free will. They didn’t make a mistake…they deliberately broke a command that carried the death penalty.
Christ came to rescue their children, born with an inheritance that would eventually take all their lives.
Was there mention of an afterlife for them? Not a hint that the penalty wasn’t permanent.

What I presented is what the scripture actually tells us about what happened in the garden…..you added an interpretation that simply is not there. You may want to believe it, but that will not make it true.

“1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. ”
Zechariah 3:1-4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

How about we take that passage from a translation that doesn’t speak a foreign language…?

Zech 3:1-4 RSV…
”Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with rich apparel.”

Who is this speaking about? And what does this have to do with Adam and Eve?
Zechariah is a prophet who was given visions, and this is the 4th in a series.

This is about Joshua, a son of Adam, sinful by a nature born in him, cloathed in sin like filthy garments, but not by his willful choice. He is called “a brand plucked from the fire” which is a wooden poker used to stir up a fire. Satan is right there ready to hurl accusation at him because of the sinful nature he has inherited….something satan uses in all of us to tempt us to sin. The blood of Christ would cleans all of Adam’s children from sin, even as it says in Romans 5:8…
”But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we wereyet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Satan is at the ready to continue to muddy our garments too, if we let him.
Adam and his wife did not succumb to inherited sin…..and that is what makes their choice to disobey, unforgivable.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.

Not true. The woman was “deceived”……but the man was not.
Did you never ask why sin entered into humankind through the man and not the woman?
”For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.“ (1 Tim 2:13-14 RSV)

It was Adams choice that sealed our fate…..(Rom 5:12) if he had remained obedient, only Eve would have been punished with the death penalty. She had reiterated to the serpent what God’s law was concerning the TKGE. She willfully disobeyed because she believed what the devil had said….”you surely will not die”.

She had no sin nature, but was new and inexperienced compared to Adam. The devil used her as bait for his scheme to steal the human race for his own selfish ambitions. He used the woman to persuade the man, and his loyalties were divided…..the first case of “divide and conquer”.

God’s justice is not watered down by his love….mercy is extended but only if it is warranted…..it was not warranted in this case. The devil and the first humans were created perfect….there was no excuse for any of them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jehovah's Witnesses do no favour to God by misrepresenting His character in their stubborn belief in a creation that necessitated the death of creatures in order to evolve. @Aunty Jane told me earlier that I was making assumptions about A&E. Theistic evolution is no less an assumption than the belief in eternal torment or the trinity.

Hang on….what on earth does that mean?…
“their stubborn belief in a creation that necessitated the death of creatures in order to evolve”?

Where have we ever mentioned evolution? Or that the death of creatures was involved in their evolution?
It pays to check with us before you post about beliefs that we do not accept.

No creature mentioned in the Genesis account was given the opportunity for everlasting life…..only man was “made in God’s image“ and had access to “the tree of life”…….we know what happened to the tree of life once sin was in the world…(Gen 3:22-24)…..the fact that we are all mortal creatures living in a material world shows us that life is sustained by the provisions that God made for us here. We exist because of those external provisions…oxygen, water and food….without which all creatures would die.

Animals are programmed for death…but we humans are not.…after their eviction from the garden, we came to have no advantage over the animals in death….as Solomon wrote….in Eccl 3:18-20 RSV.

”I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.“

Animals have a cycle of life, reproduction and death, but humans alone were to enjoy everlasting life….as long as they continued to obey their Creator. Everlasting life was conditional ….they broke the condition and lost their right to everlasting life, thereby sentencing themselves and all their offspring to sin and death.

If you understand our purpose here it all makes complete sense…..so what was our purpose in the beginning and what did we lose because of Adam’s decision to join his wife in disobedience rather than lose her?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aaah, No. There was zero death in any animated thing before the first human act of disobedience to God's Will took place.

Can you show me a single scripture that states that animals were granted everlasting life?
Humans alone were made in God’s image and given the opportunity for everlasting life….animals are programmed for death…humans are not.

Animals act instinctively, not consciously. They plan nothing because they have no concept of past, present and future…..they live in the present and whatever the present need is, they will act accordingly.
No creature then has a concept of their own death…only humans do.

Can you imagine what the earth would look like if no animals died? Do you understand that the only creatures who ate flesh were the carrion creatures? (Birds, animals and insects) Animals were not predators originally, all ate green vegetation. (Gen 1:27-30) So if the carrion creatures were designed as ‘the clean up crew’ for things that died, it is apparent that God created them for that purpose. Let me ask you how many dead birds or animals do you see in nature, compared to the numbers that must die every day. The cycle of life goes on unnoticed by the majority.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

The “creation“ that “was subjected to futility” included animals in the fall out…..but the “hope” upon which humanity depended was the undoing of Satan’s world domination, (1 John 5:19) which was to affect all creation. Both animals and humans became predators, which was not in God’s original purpose.

Our “hope” is that all that we lost due to Adam’s sin will be restored…..the balance of nature will go back to what God intended in the beginning, because what God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

"We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally."

I can not find one passage that states inherited sin makes someone destined to Hell.
I have argued out here before that sins have nothing to due with getting saved or being eternally condemned.

All sins have been paid for and all people are redeemed according to Peter, Paul, and John. But, redemption does not qualify one for salvation, a person needs to accept Christ to be saved. Children are not lost because they are not able to accept Christ.
Christ said that: And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Paul says: "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."
Every sin you have committed was not put on your account. Each sin was imputed to Christ's account, and he paid the penalty for all sins on the Cross.

Whose Statement of Faith is that?

Link please.

 

[TheHC]

Jehovah's Witnesses do no favour to God by misrepresenting His character in their stubborn belief in a creation that necessitated the death of creatures in order to evolve. @Aunty Jane told me earlier that I was making assumptions about A&E. Theistic evolution is no less an assumption than the belief in eternal torment or the trinity.

What? We do not accept “theistic evolution”! CD (Common Descent) evolution has no scientific empirical support, and we eschew such an understanding.

Please get your facts straight before making fallacious statements. Thanks.

 

[PS95]

Please get your facts straight before making fallacious statements. Thanks.

YOU GET YOUR facts straight!

TheHC SAID - (This judgment of the unrighteous, is judging how they act / behave after their resurrection. Not the bad things they did before they died. They paid for their previous sins with their death. - Romans 6:7,23)

Do yourself a HUGE favor and actually READ YOUR BIBLE! ROMANS 6 not rip out 2 partial sentences from 23 verses!!!!!!
You are pushing precisely what you & Aunty Jane refuse to address on the thread I made for her.
How cowardly of you both! You two STILL have the nerve to attempt to push this lie on these people?!! Not while I have breath in me you don't!
Please get a clue by putting down your watch-the -tower magazines and endless book and READ YOUR BIBLE! You are being LIED to, and teaching others those LIES. Jehovah WILL hold you accountable. You have no respect for God to dismiss his words to us! You are lazy. Do your own bible reading and praying and stop listening to wicked men who should not ever touch the bible let a lone teach it.
YOU SAY------"It doesn't matter what bad things you do here- you wont be judged!!!"-- LIAR.
How dare you lie like that! You need JESUS!!!!! He died for OUR SINS. You can not offer your dead sinful body to God as a payment for sins. HE PAYS YOU. YOU EARN WHAT YOU ARE PAID. -----------YOU CANT PAY WHAT YOU EARNED.
What kind of a ridiculousness is that? CAN'T YOU READ? THE WAGE IS THE PAYMENT. YOU DONT PAY THE WAGE!

 

[PS95]

(This judgment of the unrighteous, is judging how they act / behave after their resurrection. Not the bad things they did before they died. They paid for their previous sins with their death. - Romans 6:7,23)

God is loving to provide this, all made possible through Jesus’ sacrifice. - John 3:16.

How dare you LIE like that to @Triumph1300 !
READ YOUR BIBLE & STOP BELIEVING THESE LIES BY THE JW Watch-the-tower deceivers! All you have to is PRAY and read it!!! HOW difficult is that is for you? You are being a lazy coward. You and Aunty Jane are both deceitful cowards who won't reply to my thread on this very topic. Yet you still push these LIES! Not while I have breath in me you won't.
YOU just lifted 2 PARTIAL sentences from 23 verses in Romans 6 and twisted them like the devil!!!!! READ THE CONTEXT.
You say it doesn't matter what EVIL you do on earth now- because when you die you paid God your sin debt by DYING!
That is SO CONTRARY TO WHAT the BIBLE SAYS that It's PURE WICKEDNESS! WAKE UP!!
PUT down those magazines and JW books and READ YOUR BIBLE! You are being absolutely ridiculous!
YOU are responsible for YOU!
You can pass from death to life- if you trust Jesus! He is the ONLY TRUTH! You call your organization which is corporation the TRUTH! No! Jesus is THE TRUTH! Only JESUS BLOOD CAN PAY FOR YOUR SINS.
STOP YOUR LIES and PRAY.

 

[Brakelite]

I am saying that what is written in plain terms allows for no interpretation of your church’s theology.
You have filled in the blanks where there weren’t any. Implying something is adding to the story…where does it say that God sacrificed animals to clothe Adam and his wife? Where was Adam told about life after death?
What basis did they have for repentance when they sinned deliberately without a sin nature taking them in a wrong direction? There was no excuse for what they chose to do of their own free will. They didn’t make a mistake…they deliberately broke a command that carried the death penalty.
Christ came to rescue their children, born with an inheritance that would eventually take all their lives.
Was there mention of an afterlife for them? Not a hint that the penalty wasn’t permanent.

What I presented is what the scripture actually tells us about what happened in the garden…..you added an interpretation that simply is not there. You may want to believe it, but that will not make it true.

How about we take that passage from a translation that doesn’t speak a foreign language…?

Zech 3:1-4 RSV…
”Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with rich apparel.”

Who is this speaking about? And what does this have to do with Adam and Eve?
Zechariah is a prophet who was given visions, and this is the 4th in a series.

This is about Joshua, a son of Adam, sinful by a nature born in him, cloathed in sin like filthy garments, but not by his willful choice. He is called “a brand plucked from the fire” which is a wooden poker used to stir up a fire. Satan is right there ready to hurl accusation at him because of the sinful nature he has inherited….something satan uses in all of us to tempt us to sin. The blood of Christ would cleans all of Adam’s children from sin, even as it says in Romans 5:8…
”But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we wereyet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Satan is at the ready to continue to muddy our garments too, if we let him.
Adam and his wife did not succumb to inherited sin…..and that is what makes their choice to disobey, unforgivable.

Mmm. And yet after Calvary and the awesome revelation of the love of God, a revelation mind that Adam and Eve never had, we still deliberately disobey God's commandments and rationalise them to mean something other than what they plainly convey. How is that any better than what Adam and Eve did, having been deceived?

 

[Brakelite]

where does it say that God sacrificed animals to clothe Adam and his wife?

I didn't say God sacrificed the animal, if there was a sacrifice at all, it would have been by the hand of Adam. As I said, I'm interpreting the scripture on the basis of typology, and the fact that God never changes. Some animal had to die in order to provide those skins. To deny that and turn God into a magician is 5 steps too far.

Where was Adam told about life after death?

Oh please. We don't know how long it was before the tree incident. It could have been decades. God walked and talked with His 2 children every day, teaching science, instructing in how to tend the garden, the nature of food and life and love and zoology etc etc. It would be gross presumption to believe God didn't tell Adam from whence he came and the plans God had for him. Did God teach him about death? Did God explain what death was and what it meant? I don't think so. The test was to trust and obey, regardless of consequences right?

 

[Brakelite]

Jehovah's Witnesses do no favour to God by misrepresenting His character in their stubborn belief in a creation that necessitated the death of creatures in order to evolve. @Aunty Jane told me earlier that I was making assumptions about A&E. Theistic evolution is no less an assumption than the belief in eternal torment or the trinity.

That surprises you @TheHC ?? Think about theistic evolution and tie it the character you believe belongs to the God you serve.

 

[Brakelite]

mercy is extended but only if it is warranted

Aaah. So only those who deserve mercy receive it? How do we earn mercy aunty?

 

[David Lamb]

God’s justice is not watered down by his love….mercy is extended but only if it is warranted…..it was not warranted in this case. The devil and the first humans were created perfect….there was no excuse for any of them.

But God's mercy involves Him withholding the punishment the sinner deserves. God's mercy is never deserved/warranted. I agree that God's justice is not watered down by His love. That is why in His love He sent Jesus Christ, to bear the punishment of His peoples' sins.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mmm. And yet after Calvary and the awesome revelation of the love of God, a revelation mind that Adam and Eve never had, we still deliberately disobey God's commandments and rationalise them to mean something other than what they plainly convey. How is that any better than what Adam and Eve did, having been deceived?

Did you miss the scripture that tells us that only the woman was “deceived”…..Adam was not….
”For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.“ (1 Tim 2:13-14 RSV)
There it is…..Adam did not make a mistake, nor did he have a momentary lapse in judgment…..he made a choice that cost him his life, and the lives of all who came from him. Sin came into the world through “one man”…not the woman. (Rom 5:12)

Perfect creatures make deliberate choices and his was unforgivable.
Adam is responsible for the deaths of countless billions of his offspring…..but nowhere was he told that he would go to “hell” for that. He was told simply that he would die and return to the elements of the earth from which he was created. There never was an afterlife…..when God said that they would die…he meant it.
Jews were taught about a resurrection in the future under Messiah’s kingdom….not immortality of the soul where some shadowy part of humans departs from the body.

King David wrote….
”The heavens are the Lord’s heavens, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any that go down into silence.” Psalm 115:16-17)

You read into Genesis what you want to see, but it plainly isn’t there.

Were the Israelites ever told that a “heaven or hell” was reserved for them? NO!
They we’re told by their God….
”I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you as well as your descendants may live, by loving the LORD your God, by heeding his injunctions, and by holding fast to him; for that will mean life to you.” (Deut 39:19-20 AT)

“Life or death”…these were the opposing sentences that God’s people could expect, depending on their own choices….just like Adam…they had to choose to serve God and obey him if they wanted continuing life under his care and control.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I didn't say God sacrificed the animal, if there was a sacrifice at all, it would have been by the hand of Adam. As I said, I'm interpreting the scripture on the basis of typology, and the fact that God never changes. Some animal had to die in order to provide those skins. To deny that and turn God into a magician is 5 steps too far.

Read the account again…Gen 3:21….
”And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.”
God made the garments that were given to Adam and his wife. It wast Adam’s idea to make “garments of skin” for them….it was God….and the Creator who did not need to kill his own creatures to provide their clothing.
You have added to what was written.…but I have no idea why you needed to do that.

It would be gross presumption to believe God didn't tell Adam from whence he came and the plans God had for him. Did God teach him about death? Did God explain what death was and what it meant? I don't think so. The test was to trust and obey, regardless of consequences right?

Can you tell me what “plans” God had for the human race, who alone were “made in his image” and given intellect and qualities that would reflect his own thinking on all things.
Why did he give “free will” only to his intelligent creation, (angels and humans) knowing that they could use their knowledge in a wrong way and bring consequences on themselves and others?

Animals have no moral sense and are therefore not accountable to the Creator for their lack of propriety. We alone bear that responsibility….have you never asked why?
Why are we here? What did God tell the humans was their purpose on this earth?

Aaah. So only those who deserve mercy receive it? How do we earn mercy aunty?

Only those who warrant mercy will receive it. The example of King David shows this when he committed adultery and murder and tried to hide it…..God knew that his heart was good but his actions were wrong.
On both counts David warranted the death penalty, but God himself took on the case and sent his prophet Nathan to inform David of the severity of his crime….not directly, but with an illustration that caused David to pass sentence on himself. Because his repentance was heartfelt, God forgave him, but he did not prevent the consequences of his actions from plaguing him for the rest of his life.

Manasseh was also a good example of mercy shown despite his despicable past. In both cases, God extended mercy because it was warranted….genuine heartfelt repentance was the basis.

Mercy is not administered on sentiment…it is based purely on justice. God’s love does not water down his justice. We saw that also with the rebels in the wilderness…..the earth opened up and swallowed the culprits leaving no one in any doubt that God’s justice will prevail according to his will and purpose.

The worshippers of the golden calf also received God’s justice.